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The Bible says that believers are predestined to be in the image of the Lord.
What or who causes one sinner to have faith and another to not have faith?
What causes an unsaved person to choose Christ? What causes another person to reject Christ? Don't they have identical hearts?
Please read your verses again. The Father "draws" and those who have listened and learned will come to Jesus.44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
Yes, it is simple. Those that listen and learn are a result of the giving. Not the other way around.
Seriously? Where do you get the idea that v.45 is in some "other" context from v.44?First, who is "they"? Read the context. the preceding verse speaks of the one who is drawn by the Father and who, as a result of being drawn, comes to the Son and is raised up by Him. The being "taught by God" is not some general revelation that is devoid of connection with the preceding context.
I did. And that is exactly what Jesus said in v.45. Maybe you need the review.You're insisting that the ones taught, heard and learned are the ones given to Jesus. Read the verses.
As I showed from John 12:32, Jesus indicated that His going to the cross would DRAW ALL MEN. Not, "just the elect" or some other worded unbiblical idea.No One Can Come... No one. No one does not mean someone. In other words, unless you're drawn by God, no amount of teaching and hearing and learning can have a salvific effect on you. You are given to Jesus then are enabled to hear listen and learn.
Then prove your claim. With evidence. This is just an opinion, and unsubstantiated.You're going to a later passage ,misinterpreting it and taking it’s understanding and reading it back into previous passage. I think that’s called eisegesis.
More personal opinions. btw, I don't have "traditions". I have the Bible. And I study it like the Bereans did. Acts 17:11You’re Reading into the text your own traditions.
Sure. Please prove your opinions.Only by breaking the text up into portions and ignoring its consistent themes, terms, and actions can such eisegesis be maintained.
Those God foreknew are predestined. It’s right there in the very verse you quoted.The Bible says that believers are predestined to be in the image of the Lord.
Rom 8:29 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
Only believers are predestined. Quite simple.
"Identical" hearts ? No. I don't know anyone ever thought that ?
So, those who have listened and learned from the Father will come to Jesus..”
Ask Him.God gave some hearts that believe and some that don't?
As I showed from John 12:32, Jesus indicated that His going to the cross would DRAW ALL MEN. Not, "just the elect" or some other worded unbiblical idea.
Why would that not be extremely cruel and harsh on God's part?God gave some hearts that believe and some that don't?
I don't know what your point is here. God foreknows everything. So that doesn't come close to supporting Calvinism.Those God foreknew are predestined. It’s right there in the very verse you quoted.
And only those predestined are called. It’s the next verse.
Of course not. Only those in your own periphery would be able to do that. And only living people.
Didn't you read v.45 in its entirety? Jesus said those who have listened and learned from the Father WILL COME TO ME.The "coming" in verse 45 you keep mentioning is not possible unless what? Unless you're given to the Father first and ultimately results in being raised up on the last day.
Well, you can claim anything you want to claim. And that doesn't make it true.I'm sorry, your claim that ordering is unclear does not hold water. It's indefensible.
What a twist of what I believe.At this point, you can continue to choose to believe in a God that needs your permission to be your savior.
Let me help straighten out your mistaken views. I'm not a synergist. I have as much against Ariminians as I do Calvinists.You're doing it again. You see, this is a common tactic and excuse by synergists to the plain teaching of John 6:44.
No jump or leap at all. Jesus said His going to the cross would draw all men. Jesus spoke of the Father drawing men to Him. What's the beef?To jump over to John 12.
I'm not a universalist either. The context of John 6:43-46 clearly states that those who have listened and learned WILL COME TO JESUS. Why do you keep dodging that very clear statement?Unless you're a universalist, John 6:44 makes the "all men without exception" interpretation an impossibility. Jesus also clearly excludes it in 6:37
v.37 is a statement about believers, as evidenced by what Jesus said in v.45. It's also a statement of eternal security.37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
It doesn’t say “those who He foreknew would believe”. It says “those He foreknew”.I don't know what your point is here. God foreknows everything. So that doesn't come close to supporting Calvinism.
And we know what "called" means, in the Greek. It's an invitation.
But, are you disagreeing that in Rom 8:29, those predestined are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son?
So, who are the predestined, if not believers?
Do you honestly think that God predestines unbelievers to be conformed to the image of His Son?
Didn't you read v.45 in its entirety? Jesus said those who have listened and learned from the Father WILL COME TO ME.
So when Jesus later said what He did in John 12, did he forget to be clear, or did He in fact mean what he said?44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
You keep going to a later passage, and taking it’s understanding and reading it back into the previous passage. Please stop this nonsense of quoting verse 45 without verse 44. You are completely ignoring verse 44 which comes before verse 45. No one is able to come. Unless you are drawn by the Father. After the drawing in verse 44, then comes verse 45. The coming in verse 45, through listening and learning, results from the drawing in verse 44, which ultimately results in the raising in the last day.
He meant what He said. All men will be drawn. But it’s incorrect to assume that He has salvation in mind concerning all people.So when Jesus later said what He did in John 12, did he forget to be clear, or did He in fact mean what he said?
You seem to be forgetting his conversation with Nicodemus in John 3. He used Numbers 21 to compare the serpent being lifted up (provisional salvation for all), but only effectual for those who believed; with Himself doing the exact same thing. He would draw all men, but only those who believe are saved. His being lifted up is universal provision, but only those who believe are effected by the provision.He meant what He said. All men will be drawn. But it’s incorrect to assume that He has salvation in mind concerning all people.
I’m not forgetting. At the beginning of that chapter He said nobody would see or enter the kingdom of God unless they were born again. Nothing about seeing snakes for that to happen.You seem to be forgetting his conversation with Nicodemus in John 3. He used Numbers 21 to compare the serpent being lifted up (provisional salvation for all), but only effectual for those who believed; with Himself doing the exact same thing. He would draw all men, but only those who believe are saved. His being lifted up is universal provision, but only those who believe are effected by the provision.
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.I’m not forgetting. At the beginning of that chapter He said nobody would see or enter the kingdom of God unless they were born again. Nothing about seeing snakes for that to happen.
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