• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Please explain if no one is predestined

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Phoebe Ann, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +13,996
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    So those called are justified.

    Let’s look at where we are at, then. God foreknows a grouping of people. According to you, it those He foreknows will believe. Those folks He foreknows will believe are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. Also, those who are foreknown will be called. This obviously cannot be a general call to all people because it then says that those who are called are also justified.

    So if it’s not a general call, what would you call it?
     
  2. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +13,996
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I never said seeing meant regeneration. But being born again before you can see equals regeneration before you can see.
     
  3. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +13,996
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    It was your analogy. But, according to that analogy, one must be regenerated before one can see the furniture. So I don’t know how that helps your argument.
     
  4. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,222
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Yes, they responded to the call.

    He calls ALL believers to be conformed to the image of His Son. And He justified ALL believers. And He will glorify ALL believers.

    But you didn't explain why Paul used the aorist tense for "glorified".
     
  5. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,222
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    The only issue here is that one must be regenerated in order to enter the kingdom.
     
  6. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,222
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    And it made the point.

    It seems you're just trying to be difficult here.

    In order to SEE the furniture, one MUST BE IN the house. That was my point.

    Only saved people (regenerated) will ENTER the kingdom. Thus, only saved people will SEE the kingdom.

    That is the point. I have no idea what you think Jesus meant.
     
  7. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +13,996
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I know you want to go there, but not yet.

    You said they responded to the call. But in this passage, only those who, according you, God know will believe are called. Why isn’t everyone called?
     
  8. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +13,996
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Right. And Jesus doesn’t say one must believe to be regenerated in order to see. In this passage He clearly shows that regeneration precedes faith.
     
  9. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +13,996
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Exactly. Regeneration gets you in. Faith gets you justified.
     
  10. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,222
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Because not everyone is saved. God calls the saved. Just as He elects the saved.

    Have you never read 1 Tim 2-
    3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
    4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
    5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
    6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
     
  11. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +13,996
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    He calls the saved? What does that even mean?
     
  12. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,222
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    No, the Bible doesn't say "regeneration gets you in". Faith gets you saved, which gets you in. And I've already shown from Scripture that regeneration and salvation occur simultaneously, and that both are the result of faith, from Eph 2:5, 8.
     
  13. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,222
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Just what it says. The invitation to be conformed to the image of His Son is an invitation to all believers.

    How difficult is that to understand?

    But since the reformed have a totally different view of God's call and election, I understand that this would not be easy to understand.
     
  14. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +13,996
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Don’t go jumping around. John 3 is clear that to see (understand) and enter the kingdom you must be born anew. Faith is always linked with justification. Regeneration is always a free work of the Spirit.

    7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
    8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." - John 3:7-8
     
  15. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +13,996
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I understand that you have to twist the meaning to avoid what’s clearly taught.

    I’ll spell it out. God foreknew people. It doesn’t say that He foreknew actions of people. It’s people He foreknew. Those He foreknew He had a plan for them. He was going to conform them to the image of His Son. He then called them, justified them (because called people believe), and then glorified them. We are, in a real sense, glorified because we are seated at the right hand of God with Christ.

    So it works when you take it for what it says and not try to read synergistic theology into it.
     
  16. sungaunga

    sungaunga Junior Member

    929
    +57
    Christian
    Single
    44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

    I think it's take to take off the tradition glasses. Listen to yourself. How can there be hearing, learning and coming if No one is able to come unless drawn by the Father?

    Basic reading comprehension. I'm not sure if I can help you there.
     
  17. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Active Member

    547
    +81
    United States
    Baptist
    Private
    Okay, let's see ... 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
    3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John

    1. "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
    Jesus tells Nicodemus he must be born again, (saved, regenerated).

    2. “How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?”
    Nicodemus doesn’t have a clue what Jesus is talking about, hence the question concerning entering his mother’s womb to be “born, again".

    3. “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.”
    Jesus must explain to Nicodemus that there is a “fleshly" birth, and a “spiritual” birth.

    4. “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”
    Jesus is telling Nicodemus that just as he cannot see the actual “wind" he can see the effects of the wind. He is telling Nicodemus that it is not a physical birth that he can see, but it is a birth of the Spirit of God that after it occurs, we can see the effects of it.

    5. “Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?”
    Nicodemus still doesn’t understand.

    6. “Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?”
    Jesus now says to Nicodemus How can you not know this? You are one of the great teachers in Israel! (Yes, I'm paraphrasing) Then in a nutshell tells Nicodemus, You can’ understand earthly truths, how can you understand heavenly truths. But, Jesus already knows how to deal with Nicodemus.

    7. “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
    Jesus now begins to talk about Himself, then He will refer back to the OT (Which He knows Nicodemus can relate to), and will then make the comparison between that which Nicodemus knows (Numbers 21) with Himself being crucified.
     
  18. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +13,996
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Regenerated. I don’t know if you are putting significance in stating it as (saved, regenerated).
     
  19. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Active Member

    547
    +81
    United States
    Baptist
    Private
    Please allow me to try to attempt to bring some clarity ...

    Let's go to Numbers (since that's what Jesus did).

    21:4 And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way. Numbers

    The Israelites are in the wilderness wondering around (oh yes, because of their unbelief).

    Maybe they figured their journey should have been a cake walk, but I guess they forgot, this wasn't a reward for being good.

    So times get rough, and they get discouraged.

    21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. Numbers

    So even though the people already have it rough, they decide the best course of action is to talk against God, and the man of God! Great!!!


    21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Numbers

    So God bless does one of those "Oh really" things.

    21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. Numbers

    So when people started dying for being stupid (on top of being rebellious), God now has their attention. So they run to Moses with THEIR solution to the problem.

    21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. Numbers

    God however, has a different plan. You see, just taking away the serpents doesn't teach the people anything. No, God has a better idea.

    Now forgive me, but I must sort of do this as I have done it in the classroom.

    Let's look again at our text ...

    "Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live".

    Okay, Moses has his orders from God. He runs to a group of men, and tells different men to do different things, "but hurry, because people are dying".

    One must dig a hole near the center of the camp. One must gather some brass (it's a judgment). One must build a fire, one must find the blacksmith. Then Moses says, Spread the word, I'm going to be raising up a brazen serpent on a pole in the middle of the camp; God said, If you look at it, you will live.

    Now think about what is going on. There are a group of men preparing a brazen serpent to be raised in the camp. There are others who are spreading the word about the plan of God. Then there are those who are either sick, or near the point of death.

    Among the sick, I'm sure there were those who angrily said, I ain't looking at no stupid brazen serpent. (Now depending on how close he was to death ... he probably died angry. That would be those people who simply said, I don't believe that's a good plan. Since they didn't first have faith, (to look), they obviously didn't look; and then obviously died.)


    There were others there who thought to themselves, what do I have to loose, I'll just take God at His word, (faith), and go have a look! Guess what? They lived!

    There were others that were too sick to get there on their own, but believed that God would do as He said, so they, in faith, asked to be taken to the brazen serpent, so they could look. So yes, they also lived.

    In each case, either the lack of faith caused death, or faith led to God giving life.

    It happened in the wilderness ... it happened again ... at Calvary.
     
  20. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Active Member

    547
    +81
    United States
    Baptist
    Private
    Since God makes them equal in His Word ... shouldn't we?
     
Loading...