Perpetual Virginity

[Benedicta00]

Well as a protestant and one who has looked at the wording she is the mother of the kurios -Lord Jesus Christ. The son of God, the Mother of the Son of God.

Not the mother of Theos - which would mean God the father. That is why I can't call her the mother of God, she didn't bare the trinity but she bore the kurios.

Woe, do you realize that is a ancient heresy that was condemned. To proclaim this is to deny the dual natures of Christ! You CAN NOT separate the humanity for the divine. So Mary is the mother of God because Jesus IS fully God. Human mothers give birth to persons, whole persons and to just natures. Jesus is a fully human and divine person, 1 person, not 2. To say Mary was mother to one while not being mother to both is a heresy!

 

[KennySe]

Well as a protestant and one who has looked at the wording she is the mother of the kurios -Lord Jesus Christ. The son of God, the Mother of the Son of God.

Not the mother of Theos - which would mean God the father. That is why I can't call her the mother of God, she didn't bare the trinity but she bore the kurios.

Godzman,
I am going to be gentle with you, ok?

Be careful with what you say. DO you see how you are entering Nestorius' thinking?

 

[Oblio]

Not the mother of Theos - which would mean God the father.

No, it means Mother of God.
This is why every Icon that has the Theotokos has the abbeviation MP OY (where O is Theta) MateR THeoU - Mother of God. Unless you are saying that the Greeks don't know their Greek

 

[Godzman]

Woe, do you realize that is a ancient heresy that was condemned. To proclaim this is to deny the dual natures of Christ! You CAN NOT separate the humanity for the divine. So Mary is the mother of God because Jesus IS fully God. Human mothers give birth to persons, whole persons and to just natures. Jesus is a fully human and divine person, 1 person, not 2. To say Mary was mother to one while not being mother to both is a heresy!

I don't think you understood.

God is revealed in three persons one of those persons is Jesus Christ the son of God. She gave birth to Jesus the kurios not God the Father the theos.

She did not give birth to the person of the father but she gave the person of the son his humanity.

I really think I was misunderstood.

 

[Benedicta00]

Understand that all Christians serve one God, but he is revealed in three persons.

Mary did not bare the theos, the fatherhood of God, she bore the kurios the sonhood of God and she concieved by the Holy Spirit.

Oy vey! Momma Mia! The trinity shares ONE divine nature, not three!

 

[Godzman]

No, it means Mother of God.
This is why every Icon that has the Theotokos has the abbeviation MP OY (where O is Theta) MateR THeoU - Mother of God. Unless you are saying that the Greeks don't know their Greek

So Mary gave birth to the trinity as a whole, right?

I don't quite understand. I believe she concieved by the Holy Spirit who is fully God, and an angel was sent to her by God the Father and she gave birth to God the Son.

I am not denying that she wasn't the Mother of God, as in God revealed in the person of Jesus

 

[Benedicta00]

I don't think you understood.

God is revealed in three persons one of those persons is Jesus Christ the son of God. She gave birth to Jesus the kurios not God the Father the theos.

She did not give birth to the person of the father but she gave the person of the son his humanity.

I really think I was misunderstood.

No I think you are very mislead. The trinity is ONE GOD in three person and Christ is FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN so how, just how can Mary not carry God in her womb? We don’t think she created God, we thing she carried Him for nine months. To deny she carried God is to deny Christ was fully God and fully man.

 

[Godzman]

Oy vey! Momma Mia! The trinity shares ONE divine nature, not three!

I know that.

Maybe my understanding of that doctrine of the Catholic Church is limited and I am sorry, I do believe she is the Mother of God, but always remember she gave birth to Christ but he was alway preexistant.

 

[Benedicta00]

So Mary gave birth to the trinity as a whole, right?

I don't quite understand. I believe she concieved by the Holy Spirit who is fully God, and an angel was sent to her by God the Father and she gave birth to God the Son.

I am not denying that she wasn't the Mother of God, as in God revealed in the person of Jesus

No she carried God in her womb. YOU CAN'T SEPERATE THE TWO AT ALL.

 

[Godzman]

No I think you are very mislead. The trinity is ONE GOD in three person and Christ is FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN so how, just how can Mary not carry God in her womb? We don’t think she created God, we thing she carried Him for nine months. To deny she carried God is to deny Christ was fully God and fully man.

She did carry God but did she carry the Son, the Father or the Holy Spirit, no matter who they are fully God. I don't want to seem to be debating, I think I misunderstood the Catholic doctrine on that because God the Father was not in the womb but God the son was was, the Word of God was, so yes Mary was the mother of God in that sense, I would never deny that, because Christ was fully God and fully human.

 

[Godzman]

No she carried God in her womb. YOU CAN'T SEPERATE THE TWO AT ALL.

I don't understand, because it is clear that God the Father was not the one being baptised by John but it was God the Son, at that time they were seperate.

I can't say this enough I don't want to get in trouble for this or really debate this, I do not deny he was fully God but he was fully God because he was concieved by the Holy Spirit and fully human because he was given birth to by Mary.

 

[Michelina]

The term Mother of God comes from the apostles. It was commonly used in the early Church and was formally proclaimed by a General Council of the Universal Church when it was discussing Dinity of JESUS, who is GOD.

Jesus = God
Mother of Jesus = Mother of God

You cannot separate the Persons of the Trinity. We mentally distinguish them but do not separate them.

But I doubt that you'll accept a term you consider Catholic/Orthodox.

I just hope you understand us, Man of God, dear brother.

 

[jukesk9]

Who's up for e-mailing Sean Hannity and letting him know that he, as a Catholic, should correctly represent the Church's teaching on Mary's Perpetual Virginity? I'll compose a draft on behalf of the members of OBOB and we can all attach our names to it......

 

[KennySe]

Godzman, I urge you to web search "Hypostatic Union" and 'Nestorianism".
I want you to understand Nestorius' claim.

*****

On to another topic.

I can't say this enough I don't want to get in trouble for this or really debate this, I do not deny he was fully God but he was fully God because he was concieved by the Holy Spirit and fully human because he was given birth to by Mary.

Jesus is fully God.

There is no condition which grants Him Godhood.

 

[Michelina]

Who's up for e-mailing Sean Hannity and letting him know that he, as a Catholic, should correctly represent the Church's teaching on Mary's Perpetual Virginity? I'll compose a draft on behalf of the members of OBOB and we can all attach our names to it......

Great idea!

 

[Godzman]

The term Mother of God comes from the apostles. It was commonly used in the early Church and was formally proclaimed by a General Council of the Universal Church when it was discussing Dinity of JESUS, who is GOD.

Jesus = God
Mother of Jesus = Mother of God

You cannot separate the Persons of the Trinity. We mentally distinguish them but do not separate them.

But I doubt that you'll accept a term you consider Catholic/Orthodox.

I just hope you understand us, Man of God, dear brother.

I do, for many Catholics on here understand I don't seek to dog the faith of my brothers and sisters in Christ, no matter to the extent I disagree.

I am your brother in Christ and we are one in the body of Christ I would never deny that.

Yes she is the Mother of God, but she did not give him his divinity he had it from being conceived by the Holy Spirit.

The stuggle in the early church was not to prove that God the father or God the spirit were fully God, but that the kurios - the Son was fully God.

I do not deny that, and I do not deny Mary's role, I hope you understand that I believe that Mary should be revered for her role in God's plan.

She was unique to it and without her and her willingness to do something that had never been done before allowed salvation to come into this world.

We are all united in Christ.

In love and prayer to my Catholic brothers and sisters

 

[Bastoune]

Godzman:
In focusing on God's TRINITY, you are forgeting His Unity.

Mary gave birth to GOD, for Jesus is God, son or otherwise. "Theos" means "God" period (not "Father"). The fullness of God and total humanity were united within Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Word of God. When she gave birth to the Eternal Son, she gave birth to God who is inseparably ONE, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

God is not "fractions." Nor is He 3 "fused" into One. He is ONE in Three Persons, but ONE. It is a mystery we can barely fathom and explain with human words and thought.

But you are starting to sound a bit like Nestor... slightly... but not as bad.

 

[Godzman]

Godzman:
In focusing on God's TRINITY, you are forgeting His Unity.

Mary gave birth to GOD, for Jesus is God, son or otherwise. "Theos" means "God" period (not "Father"). The fullness of God and total humanity were united within Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Word of God.

Theos is used to refer to Jesus, sometimes but kurios, which is Lord is never referring to the Father.

 

[Godzman]

Well I am not trying to be like Nester, we actually learned about him in my christian church to reformation class but that was last semester and well I can't remember that far back

 

[Michelina]

Thank you, dear brother.

Yes she is the Mother of God, but she did not give him his divinity he had it she did not give him his divinity rom being conceived by the Holy Spirit.

"she did not give him his divinity" Absolutely true. He was GOD from all eternity and became man. The Word became flesh. Jn 1.