Perpetual Virginity

[kimber1]

could someone explain the 3 asterisk thing cause i'm in total confusion about what y'all are tlaking about.

 

[Benedicta00]

Wow. That's to bad. I really used to like him. It's a good thing I don't watch it too much anymore.

Michelle

In light of Iraq and the Church scandals he has also said that this is the singular worse pope we have ever had and continually says the bishops and the pope are nothing but men of power and the powerful protect the powerful and that is why we have scandal.

All this from a fellow Catholic.

 

[prodromos]

The majority of Orthodox icons depict Panagia with three "stars" or "asterisks" on her robe, one on each shoulder and one above her forehead. They signify that Mary was a virgin before, during and after giving birth to Christ.

John.

 

[kimber1]

oh that's neat!!

 

[Bastoune]

The folks in Nazareth were probably speaking Aramaic

Which is 100% correct. In Aramaic there is a difficulty rendering "brother," "cousin" or "relative" and the NT writers translated into the best Greek (also not 100% accurate) as possible.

A couple other spots in Scripture come to mind where there is a problem with wording: For example in Luke 1:36 we see Elizabeth is called Mary's "cousin" but but this is an improper translation because in Hebrew and Aramaic, there is no word for "cousin." She was a relative of Mary's.

Take a look at Gen. 11:26-28 where Lot is described as Abraham's nephew ("anepsios"); then elsewhere in Gen. 13:8; 14:14,16, Lot is called Abraham's brother ("adelphos") . This proves that, although a Greek word for cousin is "anepsios," Scripture also uses "adelphos" to describe a cousin.

 

[Bastoune]

Wow. That's to bad. I really used to like him. It's a good thing I don't watch it too much anymore.

Michelle

Bill O'Reilly is an ignorant fool who actually said Pope Pius XII did "nothing" during the Holocaust... and I never received a reply for my LONG e-mail correcting him on that ignorant statement.

 

[Bastoune]

From an essay I wrote once:

Opponents of the perpetual virginity of Mary also point to Matt. 1:25 - this verse says Joseph knew her "not until ("heos", in Greek)" she bore a son. Some Protestants argue that this proves Joseph had relations with Mary after she bore a son. This is an erroneous reading of the text because "not until" does not mean "did not...until after." "Heos" references the past, never the future. Instead, "not until" she bore a son means "not up to the point that" she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus (see also: Matt. 28:29; Luke 1:80; Luke 2:37, 20:43; 1 Cor. 15:25; 1 Tim. 4:13 ; Gen. 8:7, 28:15 ; Deut. 34:6 ; 2 Sam. 6:23; 1 Macc. 5:54; Revelation 2:24-25).

Matthew 1:25 tells us that Joseph did not have relations with Mary before the birth of her Son. Why not? There was no ban on intercourse during pregnancy under the Jewish Law under normal circumstances, and if he was going to have intercourse with her after the pregnancy why not before?

It was because in Jewish culture this would have meant that Joseph acknowledged biological fatherhood over Jesus. Because he refused to do this he was saying in essence that he did not accept Jesus as his biological son though he would accept him as his legal son. By refusing to consummate his marriage with Mary he was in conformity with the Jewish Law. By not having intercourse with Mary before the birth of Jesus he is acknowledging in principle that he was also forbidden to have intercourse with her thereafter. A woman found to be with child that is not her husband’s is forbidden forever more to him and to the man who impregnated her. (In fact, a woman caught in adultery is likewise penalized.) Under Jewish law, because Mary was found to be with child before she had consummated her marriage to Joseph she was forever forbidden to him. He could keep her as his wife but he was not allowed intimate relations with her. Had Mary born any children after Jesus she would have been stoned to death under the Law. Had Joseph claimed those children to be biologically his, he would have been stoned to death also.

When Joseph found out that Mary was pregnant, he was going to give her a 'get' or paper of divorce from their betrothal. When he elected not to do so, she remained LEGALLY his betrothed. After they lived together she was considered his wife. But under Jewish law, since Jesus was not his biological son, Joseph was forbidden to have relations with Mary.

Here are some sites that speak to this further:

http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Homiletic/2001-10/orchard.html
http://www.udayton.edu/mary/resources/documents/RC.html
http://www.geocities.com/~eingedi/joseph.html
http://www.geocities.com/~eingedi/maryandjoseph.html

Theologian and Old Testament scholar Br. Anthony O ****po wrote in his essay "The Perpetual Virginity of Mary":

"We also have to take into consideration that when Mary was told by the archangel Gabriel 'Behold, you shall conceive in your womb, and bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus' (Lk 1:31), he also added that this was to come about because 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the Holy one to be born shall be called the Son of God' (Lk 1:35).

"By stating it in those terms the archangel declared to Mary that God would enter into a marital relationship with her, causing her to conceive His Son in her womb, For 'to lay one's power (reshuth) over a woman' (Targum to Dt 21:4) was a euphemism for 'to have a marital relationship with her.'

"Likewise 'to overshadow' (Lk 1:35) by spreading the 'wing' or 'cloak' over a woman was another euphemism for marital relations. Thus, the rabbis commented (Midrash Genesis Rabbah 39.7; Midrash Ruth Rabbah 3.9) that Ruth was chaste in her wording when she asked Boaz to have marital relations with her by saying to him 'I am Ruth you handmaid, spread therefore your cloak ( literally, "wing": kanaph) over your handmaid for you are my next-of-kin' (Ruth 3:9).

"Tallith, another Aramaic-Hebrew word for cloak, is derived from tellal = shadow. Thus, 'to spread one's cloak (tallith) over a woman' means to cohabit with her (Kiddushin 18b, see also Mekhilta on Exodus 21:8). Did not the Lord say to His bride Israel: 'I am married to you' (Jr 3:14) and 'your Maker is your husband'? (Is 54-5:5; Jr 31:32)? And what is more intimate than what the Lord said to His bride: 'You developed, you grew, you came to full womanhood; your breasts became firm and your hair grew... you were naked... and I saw that you were now old enough for love so I spread my cloak over you... I gave you My oath, I entered into a covenant with you and you became Mine, says the Lord God' (Ezk 16:7, 8).

"Having been enlightened by an angel in a dream regarding her pregnancy, and perhaps further by Mary concerning the words of the archangel Gabriel to her at the Annunciation, Joseph knew that God had conducted himself as a husband in regard to Mary. She was now prohibited to him for all time, and for the sake of the Child and Mary he could only live with her in an absolutely chaste relationship."

But if you also look at the "contractual" agreement which betrothal was, Joseph and Mary were more than likely never "lovers" -- given the age difference (this is not based on "Sacred Tradition" but rather secular historians maintain that Mary must have been around 12-13 when betrothed, and the man was usually much older; it was a "business deal" between him and the father of the Jewish girl being betrothed). Therefore, there is no evidence that he and she would have had romantic, passionate sexual attraction period. Especially when you know that the woman you are supposed to marry is carrying the Messiah in her womb, that in itself changes your whole outlook. Your entire focus would shift to God, worshiping Him constantly, as you (Joseph) are guardian of the New Ark of the Covenant (who is Mary) and the Lord Incarnate, her Divine Son.

 

[Benedicta00]

The majority of Orthodox icons depict Panagia with three "stars" or "asterisks" on her robe, one on each shoulder and one above her forehead. They signify that Mary was a virgin before, during and after giving birth to Christ.

John.

This is also a Western Catholic icon and devotion, not only a EO. Our Lady of Perpetual Help is one of the most beloved and popular devotions the Latin rite Church has.

Here is the meaning of the image.

Look at the copy of the picture. Frightened by the vision of two angels showing Him the instruments of the Passion, the Christ Child has run to His Mother, almost losing, in His haste, one of the tiny sandals. Mary holds Him in her arms reassuringly, lovingly. But notice her eyes. They look not at Jesus, but at us. Is this not a touch of genius? How better express Our Lady's plea to us to avoid sin and love her Son?
Christ's little Hands, too, are pressed into Mary's as a reminder to us that, just as on earth He placed Himself entirely in her hands for protection, so now in Heaven He has given into her hands all graces, to distribute to those who ask Her. This is the principal message of the picture. A Byzantine icon, however, it is replete with other symbols. Here are some of them.

Star on Our Lady's veil. She is the Star Of the Sea . . . who brought the light of Christ to the darkened world . . . the star that leads us to the safe port of Heaven

Golden Crown placed on the original picture by order of the Holy See in 1867 It is a token of the many miracles wrought by Our Lady invoked under the title of "Perpetual Help.

Greek Initial for St. Michael the Archangel " He is depicted holding the lance and gall-sop of Christ's Passion

Mary's Mouth is small for silent recollection. She speaks little.

Red Tunic the color worn by virgins at the time of Christ.

Dark Blue Mantle the color worn by mothers in Palestine. Mary is both Virgin and Mother.

Christ's Hands turned palms down into His Mother's indicate that the Graces of Redemption are in Her keeping

Greek Initial for "St. Gabriel the Archangel." He holds the Cross and the nails.


Mary's Eyes are large for all our troubles They are turned toward us always.



Greek Initials for "Jesus Christ."

Mary's Left Hand supporting Christ possessively: She is his Mother. It is a comforting hand for everyone who calls on Her.

Falling Sandal Perhaps, the symbol of a soul clinging to Christ by one last thread -- devotion to Mary.

The entire background is golden symbolic of Heaven where Jesus and Mary are now enthroned. The gold also shines through their clothing showing the heavenly joy. They can bring to tired human hearts.

 

[Bastoune]

Mary was the daughter of the Father, mother of the Son, and spouse of the Holy Spirit - a unique role of having a complete relationship with the Trinity!

Now, image the bond a mother has with her child as she carries that child for 9 months in the womb. How much MORE beautiful, amazing, and TRANSFORMING would it be to have the Incarnate Word of God within your body, growing and developing.

Imagine then having the Word of God, the Son of God, growing up in your house... would that not make you focus your attention more on worshiping God than on having sexual relations with your spouse? There is NOTHING wrong with sex within marriage, of course! It is a holy act, a life-giving act (Gen 1:28, 9:1-7, 35:11; Lev.18:22-23;20:13; 1 Chron. 25:5; Psalm 127:3-5, etc.)

However, given what I stated above about Joseph, Mary's pregnancy, and Jewish custom, they would not have had sexual relations, but if they could have, would they have? You have God in your house! Wouldn't you rather spend your time doing other things which are spiritual? Especially all that Mary and Joseph had been through, who's to believe they would be "in the mood" for anything but prayer, meditation, thanksgiving, glorifying God.

Chastity during marriage was not uncommon (though not the norm) in Jewish history. Br. O****po notes several examples:

"Living a celibate life within marriage was not unknown in Jewish tradition. It was told that Moses, who was married, remained continent the rest of his life after the command to abstain from sexual intercourse (Ex 19:15) given in preparation the seventy elders abstained thereafter from their wives after their call, and so did Eldad and Medad when the spirit of prophecy came upon them; indeed it was said that the prophets became celibate after the Word of the Lord communicated with them (Midrash Exodus Rabbah 19; 46.3; Sifre to Numbers 99 sect. 11; Sifre Zutta 81-82, 203-204; Aboth Rabbi Nathan 9, 39; Tanchuman 111, 46; Tanchumah Zaw 13; 3 Petirot Moshe 72; Shabbath 87a; Pesachim 87b, Babylonian Talmud).

"Elijah and Elisha were celibate al their lives (Zohar Hadash 2:1; Midrash Mishlei 30, 105, Pirke Rabbi Eliezer 33). When for the sake of the Torah (i.e., intense study in it), a rabbi would abstain from relations with his wife, it was deemed permissible, for he was then cohabiting with the Shekinah (the "Divine Presence") in the Torah (Zohar re Gn 1:27; 13:3 and Psalm 85:14 in the Discourse of Rabbi Phineas to Rabbis Jose, Judah, and Hiya)."

A vow of chasity was practiced on several levels in Jewish Tradition:

"Jewish tradition also mentions the celibate Zenu'im (lit. "chaste ones") to whom the secret of the Name of God was entrusted, for they were able to preserve the Holy Name in "perfect purity" (Kiddushin 71a; Midash Ecclesiastes Rabbah 3:11; Yer. yoma 39a, 40a).

"Those in hope of a divine revelation consequently refrained from sexual intercourse and were strict in matters of purity (Enoch 83:2; Revelation 14:2-5).

"Philo (Apol. pro Judaeis 1X, 14-17), Josephus, (Antiq. XVIII. 21) and Hipploytus (Philosophumena IX, IV, 28a) wrote on the celibacy of the Jewish Essenes hundreds of years before the discovery of their settlements in Qumran by the Dead Sea.

"Philo Judaeus (c. 20 B.C.-50 A.D.), a Jewish philosopher, described Jewish women who were virgins who have kept their chastity not under compulsion, like some Greek priestesses, but of their own free will in their ardent yearning for Wisdom. "Eager to have Wisdom for their life-mate, they have spurned the pleasures of the body and desire no mortal offspring but those immortal children which only the soul that is dear to God can bring forth to birth" (Philo, Cont. 68; see also Philo, Abr. 100)."

"For 'the chaste are rewarded by receiving illumination from the concealed heavenly light' (Zohar 11. 229b-230a). Because 'if the understanding is safe and unimpaired, free from the oppression of the iniquities or passions... it will gaze clearly on all that is worthy of contemplation' (Philo, Sob. 1.5). Conversely, 'the understanding of the pleasure-loving man is blind and unable to see those things that are worth seeing... the sight of which is wonderful to behold and desirable' (Philo, Q. Gen.IV.245)." (O****o, "The Perpetual Virginity of Mary")

In the New Testament, we see the widow Anna (Luke 2:36-38) who is even called a "prophetess" (probably because people sought out her gift of discernment due to the holy life she led under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) for she dedicated herself (remaining chaste) to "worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day" (Luke 2:37).

The pro-chastity sentiments of Jewish Tradition are echoed in Matthew 19:12 and 1 Cor. 7.

Now, these last couple examples seem to deviate from the concept of marital chastity, but they are nevertheless pertinent to understanding the not-so-outlandish (and very HOLY) concept of marital chastity as seen biblically and through Sacred Tradition.

"Jewish tradition mentions that, although the people had to abstain from sexual relations with their wives for only three days prior to the revelation at Mount Sinai (Ex 19:15), Moses chose to remain continent the rest of his life with the full approval of God. The rabbis explained that this was so because Moses knew that he was appointed to personally commune with God, not only at Mount Sinai but in general throughout the forty years of sojourning in the wilderness. For this reason Moses kept himself 'apart from woman,' remaining in the sanctity of separation to be at the beck and call of God at all times; they cited God's command to Moses in Deuteronomy 5:28 (Midrash Exodus Rabbah 19:3 and 46.3).

"Again, we may be sure that Saint Joseph remained celibate all his life because throughout his married years he was in daily attendance and communication with Jesus, the incarnate Word of God." (O****p o, "The Perpetual Virginity of Mary").

 

[Oblio]

Ooops, thanks for 'splainin 'bout the asteriks John

Nice icon too, many have the third asterik hidden by Christ, but we all know it is there.

 

[kimber1]

oh wow, thanks for that michelle!!

 

[Benedicta00]

Bill O'Reilly is an ignorant fool who actually said Pope Pius XII did "nothing" during the Holocaust... and I never received a reply for my LONG e-mail correcting him on that ignorant statement.

He says he doesn’t spin stories but in reality that is all he does. Once he came out with the pope is senile, heavily medicated and completely out his mind garbage the popes turns around and tours the world canonizing in Mexico the priest (I can recall his name) and appears at world youth day and with the President on the news, all after Bill says no one can even get to him personally at the Vatican. I guess after the pope made this trips around the world his tangent was dropped and never brought up again. Does he think the viewing public is really that stupid? I’m surprised he didn’t try to say that JP uses a stunt pope or a pope double to make appearances. I would not trust a word that man speaks on any issue, catholic or otherwise.

 

[Benedicta00]

oh wow, thanks for that michelle!!

OLPH is one of my favorites. A few years back at my parish, which is OLPH, the icon began to weep at a child’s baptism and I believe she still does. It was a big deal for a while in the local news and people came from all over for a few month praying for miracles. It was something for a while. The bishop never made a statement on the matter, at least I don’t think he did and the priest was very nervous and careful not to draw to much attention to the icon. I felt sorry for him because the skeptics accuse him of rigging the icon.

 

[Godzman]

I can see where many catholics believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin, thats fine.

I was wondering if she did have sex, with Joseph of course would that cause the divinity of Jesus to be any less significant?


I was just courious.

 

[Bastoune]

I can see where many catholics beleive that Mary was a perpetual virgin, thats fine.

I was wondering if she did have sex, with Joseph of course would that cause the divinity of Jesus to be any less significant?


I was just courious.

Well, no, it would not... because Joseph was not Jesus' biological father. He is the Son of God and the Son of Mary. Jesus, and who He is and what He is, is the foundation of our faith, not Mary. Mary, in her piety, and her special role as the Mother of God (for Christ is God), is a model and example of faith, to be honoured for "all generations will call her blessed." But honouring her does not add to, nor detract from the honour and worship we reserve for God alone; but her example inspires us and we should imitate her and honour her in our hearts as the Mother of the Lord. (1 Cor. 4:16; Hebrews 6:12 & 13:7)

 

[Michelina]

I can see where many catholics beleive that Mary was a perpetual virgin, that's fine.
I was wondering if she did have sex, with Joseph of course, would that cause the divinity of Jesus to be any less significant? I was just courious.

No.

But we are more concerned about looking at the facts as they are, Man of God. They reveal a great deal.

 

[Benedicta00]

I can see where many catholics believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin, thats fine.

I was wondering if she did have sex, with Joseph of course would that cause the divinity of Jesus to be any less significant?


I was just courious.

No, but it would be telling a lie about the Mother of God because she did not have relations with Joseph. It isn’t speculation time; it is a matter that is closed. She remained a virgin after Christ was born why do non Catholics wish so bad to some how turn this into a speculative argument to point out that this means that she was just a vessel and nothing more? That she had no effect on Christ, she did, she bore his humanity!!!

I’ll turn the tables on you and ask, if she had relations with Joseph, does this mean she still wasn’t the Mother of God? That she still did not give Christ His humanity, the flesh and blood that was sacrificed for us, that she did not untie herself with God’s will and willing give up her son for us?

 

[Godzman]

I’ll turn the tables on you and ask, if she had relations with Joseph, does this mean she still wasn’t the Mother of God? That she still did not give Christ His humanity, the flesh and blood that was sacrificed for us, that she did not untie herself with God’s will and willing give up her son for us?

Well as a protestant and one who has looked at the wording she is the mother of the kurios -Lord Jesus Christ. The son of God, the Mother of the Son of God.

Not the mother of Theos - which would mean God the father. That is why I can't call her the mother of God, she didn't bare the trinity but she bore the kurios.

But the answer is no, she still would be all those things, her role is not diminished one bit if she had sex with her husband which would have been expected for that time, and if she didn't well thats fine too.

But I didn't want to debate, I agree in doesn't matter. The verse in Ezekial may or may not be referring to Mary if it is in the NT as revealed to be then it is and she did stay a perpetual virgin.

To me I was just wondering if it was something if I was a Catholic I had to adhere to.

 

[Michelina]

I was just wondering if it was something if I was a Catholic I had to adhere to.

It is.

BTW, We Catholics have only one God. They are not separate. They are perfectly ONE.

 

[Godzman]

It is.

BTW, We Catholics have only one God. They are not separate. They are perfectly ONE.

Understand that all Christians serve one God, but he is revealed in three persons.

Mary did not bare the theos, the fatherhood of God, she bore the kurios the sonhood of God and she concieved by the Holy Spirit.