Perpetual Virginity

[Bastoune]

This site blows a hole (or a million of them) in any arguments against the perpetual virginity of Our Lady:

http://mysticalrose.tripod.com/marian7.html

Neat stuff!!!

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

This is something I always point out, Poly. Theotokos is a Christological statement.

It seems to me that all Marian dogma, is christological. There would be no Marian dogma, if it was not for Christ. All Marian dogma, points to her son and savior. This is one of the reasons why I do not understand the Protestant volatility against Marian dogmas, for me they only magnify Christ.

 

[KennySe]

To be fair, we should not say "Protestants" when we refer to those followers of Christ who reject the belief in the Ever-Virginity of Mary.

For it not only some of the classification of "Protestant" which deny this.

 

[Michelina]

It seems to me that all Marian dogma, is christological. There would be no Marian dogma, if it was not for Christ. All Marian dogma, points to her son and savior. This is one of the reasons why I do not understand the Protestant volatility against Marian dogmas, for me they only magnify Christ.

That's true, p2bc. I have said as much in discussions with nonCath Christians, mostly evangelicals. Usually they get hung up on Theotokos, but when they hear the story of the formal root of the term and undertand the Trinity a little better, they seem to understand. It's amazing how little most Christians know about the Trinity! They 'believe' it but have no clear ideas about it. Go figure.

 

[Polycarp1]

It seems to me that all Marian dogma, is christological. There would be no Marian dogma, if it was not for Christ. All Marian dogma, points to her son and savior. This is one of the reasons why I do not understand the Protestant volatility against Marian dogmas, for me they only magnify Christ.

Coming from a Protestant background in a largely Catholic community, I can answer this in part: Protestants see honor due to Mary as eclipsing the focus on Christ and His Redeeming Work which is the proper mindset of every Christian -- they do not see her as magnifying Him but instead occluding Him and His Atonement.

And surely you have known a Catholic or two, or seen a bit of Blue Army writing, that makes you uneasy about the degree to which their focus is on our Lady and not on her Son. They mistake the extremes of Marian devotion for the reality, that's all.

 

[Michelina]

To be fair, we should not say "Protestants" when we refer to those followers of Christ who reject the belief in the Ever-Virginity of Mary.

For it not only some of the classification of "Protestant" which deny this.

They keep hearing this bunk about 'the brothers' of Our Lord. It seems so simple to them. I just keep using the line that "if adelphos means brother, Jacob is the brother of his father-in-law Laban. Does that make sense? Use your concordance." (More gently, of course.)

 

[Michelina]

... They mistake the extremes of Marian devotion for the reality, that's all.

And they end up misunderstanding Catholicism altogether, Poly. I often ask: "Do you revere anything?" and take it from there, starting with the word "respect". It's a long process.

I have even had these discussions with 'catholics'.

 

[KennySe]

I think of the Louvre. And standing before the Mona Lisa and saying how fantastic that painting is... and where is my "glory" being given, to the painting or the painter? Especially if he were standing in cognito in the room with me?

 

[Michelina]

I think of the Louvre. And standing before the Mona Lisa and saying how fantastic that painting is... and where is my "glory" being given, to the painting or the painter? Especially if he were standing in cognito in the room with me?

I'm going to use that, Kenny!

It's an excellent illustration of the fact that Mary is God's Masterpiece, which the great Mariologist Gabriel Roschini called her so often. We don't glorify the Masterpiece; we praise the Artist and enjoy the Masterpiece which reflects Him.

 

[Axion]

Coming from a Protestant background in a largely Catholic community, I can answer this in part: Protestants see honor due to Mary as eclipsing the focus on Christ and His Redeeming Work which is the proper mindset of every Christian -- they do not see her as magnifying Him but instead occluding Him and His Atonement.

Yes. But it is an argument formed out of ignorance. It's like saying that admiring God's creation takes away from God! It comes from a mindset that seems to imagine that heaven is a place of jealousy where God pregrudges any honour given to His servants. Honouring Mary and the Saints glorifies God. We know that St Francis, St Bernard , St Ignatius Loyola, St Therese St irenaeus, and so many others in all ages have properly honoured Mary, and at the same time far outdone those who snipe at devotion to Mary in their focus on Christ and His redeeming work. In fact, most often when we see great warriors for Jesus, we see people who are particularly devoted to Mary.

And surely you have known a Catholic or two, or seen a bit of Blue Army writing, that makes you uneasy about the degree to which their focus is on our Lady and not on her Son.

No. We cannot judge the faith of others. How does anyone "know" someone else's "focus is on our Lady and not on her Son"? Leaving aside the point that here again is the false opposition between Jesus and Our Lady that some protestants try to create. (There is no tug-of-war that if you love Mary more you must love Jesus less.) The main point is not to imagine we can judge the spirituality of others. We only truly know about our own spirituality.

 

[Bastoune]

I understand where Protestants are coming from, Axion, and it never ceases to puzzle me. Did Paul, when saying, "I urge you to imitate me" (1 Cor. 4:16) eclipse imitating Christ Jesus?!? (see also Heb. 6:12 & 13:7; 3 John 1:11)

One man I recall from a discussion on the history of the Church at a non-denominational church, said that he seemed to think Mary detracted from Christ. I asked him if he loved his wife. He said "yes."

I said, "Then how can that be? Doesn't that love somehow diminish your love for the Lord? Of course not! Loving and honouring the Mother of God is a direct reflection of your love for Jesus, which is from God Himself [cf. 1 John 4:7] --love is infinite."

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Amen Tim, Amen.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Coming from a Protestant background in a largely Catholic community, I can answer this in part: Protestants see honor due to Mary as eclipsing the focus on Christ and His Redeeming Work which is the proper mindset of every Christian -- they do not see her as magnifying Him but instead occluding Him and His Atonement.

And surely you have known a Catholic or two, or seen a bit of Blue Army writing, that makes you uneasy about the degree to which their focus is on our Lady and not on her Son. They mistake the extremes of Marian devotion for the reality, that's all.

Even "Mary's Pope," JP2, warns Catholics about going too far...

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=6172

 

[ChoirDir]

One man I recall from a discussion on the history of the Church at a non-denominational church, said that he seemed to think Mary detracted from Christ.

FOR THE PRAYER OF A MOTHER HAS GREAT POWER TO WIN THE FAVOR OF THE MASTER.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Polycarp-

What about the "Blue Army" makes you uneasy?

 

[Polycarp1]

Yes. But it is an argument formed out of ignorance. It's like saying that admiring God's creation takes away from God! It comes from a mindset that seems to imagine that heaven is a place of jealousy where God pregrudges any honour given to His servants. Honouring Mary and the Saints glorifies God. We know that St Francis, St Bernard , St Ignatius Loyola, St Therese St irenaeus, and so many others in all ages have properly honoured Mary, and at the same time far outdone those who snipe at devotion to Mary in their focus on Christ and His redeeming work. In fact, most often when we see great warriors for Jesus, we see people who are particularly devoted to Mary.

True -- the more I read of St. Francis, the more I'm struck by the devout Catholicism of the man. I hope you didn't take my trying to report the Protestant (mis)understanding for my defending it!

No. We cannot judge the faith of others. How does anyone "know" someone else's "focus is on our Lady and not on her Son"? Leaving aside the point that here again is the false opposition between Jesus and Our Lady that some protestants try to create. (There is no tug-of-war that if you love Mary more you must love Jesus less.) The main point is not to imagine we can judge the spirituality of others. We only truly know about our own spirituality.

Correct. And I should probably have placed an "apparent" in what I said.

What about the "Blue Army" makes you uneasy?

To me (and I recognize the judgmentalism underlying this, and am trying to eschew it), it seems like the Blue Army is so "gung ho" about the Fatima apparition and in particular the predictive prophecies reported to have been made by the Blessed Virgin during it (especially the third, AFAIK not yet revealed one), that they seem to be losing sight of the other essentials of Catholicism. To draw a parallel, consider the ultraconservative Protestant Young Earth Creationists who are habitués of the Science forum here, and who are so gung-ho on "proving" the repertorial historicity of Genesis 1 that they never seem to find time to speak of God's redeeming love or the Atonement of Christ, or even to treat someone who clearly believes in Jesus Christ and Him crucified as their brother in Him, but rather as some sort of anathematized heretic for daring to disagree with them. There are no doubt wonderful Catholics (some in the Blue Army) equally enamored of our Lady and the Fatima story -- but they find time to speak of our Lord's strengthening Presence in the Eucharist, the apostolate to the poor, and the dozens of other things that Catholicism serves as a light to the world about. Am I making sense to the rest of you in what I'm saying here?

 

[Axion]

There are always a few people who seem to get obsessed with one issue, and let it dominate them, like prophecy, or creationism, or election. It is not a thing specific to Marian devotion however. And we can't really tell what is their true interior state.