[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] A problem at the bottom of reason

[dlamberth]

1. Reality exists (we assume this because we're unable to prove this).
2. We can know something about reality (i.e. the earth revolves around the sun).
3. Models with predictive capabilities work better than those without (i.e. if the earth revolves around the sun, the objective facts will corroborate this).

I'm not sure why you have such a difficult time with this concept? In no way does it require you to jettison your belief in god/s. It's just a baseline position from which we can reasonably navigate what we perceive as reality.

You baseline position might have some issues for some. There are people (mostly the mystics of the various spiritual traditions) who would say that this physical reality we live in is an illusion and is not a true reality.

 

[dlamberth]

By absolute truth, I mean unalterable truth, which I equate to God, because God is unalterable or unchanging. He is the Truth.

Which image of God? The image I have is of a God who evolves.

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[HitchSlap]

You baseline position might have some issues for some. There are people (mostly the mystics of the various spiritual traditions) who would say that this physical reality we live in is an illusion and is not a true reality.

In spite of what they believe reality to be, they still have to use some basic framework in their everyday life. If they have a tooth ache, they can choose to ignore the pain assuming it's an illusion, or they can assume the pain is real, then seek out effective methods of treatment.

 

[True Scotsman]

How is it unreasonable to believe that an entity can exist outside of time and space, but is also able to interact with time and space in someway? How does this belief contradict reality? Do you find this entity to be impossible? If so, why?

I do not recognize "outside of space and time" as a valid concept. You did not answer my question. How would one ever know, objectively, whether or not the god one worships exists outside of time and space, especially since you haven't proven that the god you worship even exists in the first place? Answer this question and you'll see why it is unreasonable to believe such a notion. Also what I meant by contradicts reality is the fact that the god concept affirms the primacy of consciousness. So I reject it for this reason regardless of where it is purported to exist.

 

[HitchSlap]

In spite of what they believe reality to be, they still have to use some basic framework in their everyday life. If they have a tooth ache, they can choose to ignore the pain assuming it's an illusion, or they can assume the pain is real, then seek out effective methods of treatment. I also assume they avoid walking off cliffs, swift moving water, don't stand in front of trains and use doorways to enter rooms.

 

[Eudaimonist]

So if it didn't "pop" into existence out of nothing then the next most reasonable answer is that it came from an infinite singularity, correct?

I make no claim about what the original entity was.

Except this concept of an infinite singularity is unknowable and so can never be proven to be true, requires "belief".

I have no beliefs about what that entity was. I don't know what it was. All I can do is speculate.

This concept also contradicts our previously established belief in unalterable truth because if it was unalterable true that the universe was once an infinite singularity, it could never be true that it is not an infinite singularity.

No, that's silly. It is unalterably true that I was once a baby. The fact that I'm not a baby now does not contradict that truth.

Truths have a context. Even if something was true all of the time, such as "reality exists", there would still be a context for that truth.

However, this apparent "singularity" that we observe as the origins of the universe could be an unalterably true creation point, created by an entity that is infinite in every possible way, including infinitely true. In time this infinite entity will reveal itself to everyone, simply because it is the truth about reality.

I have no reason to head in that direction.

Seems possible right?

No, not really. I have no reason to think that it is possible.

and it makes sense

No, not really. Not to me, anyway.

When you speak of "infinite entities", "infinite truths", or entities that somehow are "truth about reality", you are speaking unintelligible nonsense to me.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Chriliman]

Which image of God? The image I have is of a God who evolves.

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God does not evolve.

Hebrews 13:8
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

Malachi 3:6
"For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed"

Do you believe every scripture of the Bible is God breathed?

 

[dlamberth]

In spite of what they believe reality to be, they still have to use some basic framework in their everyday life. If they have a tooth ache, they can choose to ignore the pain assuming it's an illusion, or they can assume the pain is real, then seek out effective methods of treatment.

Where in your example is Truth?

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[dlamberth]

God does not evolve.

Yes, God does evolve. My proof is the evolution of the universe of which God is infinitely at One with.

Do you believe every scripture of the Bible is God breathed?

I believe that Creation is the Breath of God (which is different than "God Breathed) and that the natural world is the primary revelation of the divine just as it is God's primary scripture as well as the primary mode of God's presence.

.

 

[Chriliman]

I make no claim about what the original entity was.

So you're refusing to find a reason for why we're all here? That seems irrational to me.

I have no beliefs about what that entity was. I don't know what it was. All I can do is speculate.

To speculatie, means to be open to all possibilities, including God. You can then reject the ideas that don't make sense.

No, that's silly. It is unalterably true that I was once a baby. The fact that I'm not a baby now does not contradict that truth.

Not silly, because you were never an infinite baby. Science claims the "singularity" is infinite and unknowable. Why would anyone believe in something that is unknowable. I'm claiming God is knowable, you just have to believe in Him and the existence of God does make sense.

When you speak of "infinite entities", "infinite truths", or entities that somehow are "truth about reality", you are speaking unintelligible nonsense to me.

Nope, just talking about things that require belief. And as I established in the beginning of the forum, we all must believe something about reality, even though that something we believe does not become true simply because we believe it. But we did establish that there is truth beyond our comprehension and that truth is not altered when we comprehend it, making it unalterable truth. This unalterable truth requires us to "believe" in it, in order to understand it.

So by saying I'm talking unintelligible nonsense, means you've already forgotten what unalterable truth means.

 

[ScottA]

What would be the best way to corroborate their experiences?

Both universes are vast. I believe it must begin with an open mind.

In the past, while scientist were still ignorant enough to be humble, they were quite open minded. Many believed in both, without trying to fit one into the terms of the other. Scientists of faith, in fact, have been so influenced by the scientific community's lack of openness, that they have begun a trend of God using scientific means, using evolution, etc. It should be the other way around, as it once was. Strength in man's universe is cool, but it should not be perceived as weakness in God's universe. Contrary to popular belief, perception is NOT reality...especially if it is only selective.

 

[Chriliman]

Yes, God does evolve. My proof is the evolution of the universe of which God is infinitely at One with.

I believe that Creation is the Breath of God (which is different than "God Breathed) and that the natural world is the primary revelation of the divine just as it is God's primary scripture as well as the primary mode of God's presence.

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Do you claim to be Christian? If not then there are some things you need to learn about the one True God.

2 Timothy 3:16
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

As Christians, we can't pick and choose what to believe from the Bible, we must use scripture to support scripture or we run the risk of misinterpreting it. A true Christian is filled with the Holy Spirit and can discern truth from the scripture in the Bible.

 

[ScottA]

Yes, God does evolve. My proof is the evolution of the universe of which God is infinitely at One with.

If you believe that God created the universe, you have no choice but to believe that it is contrived. Even science will tell you that time is an illusion, matter is actually only energy, etc.. But the fact that the universe was created by God should tell you that it is apart from Him and therefore not One with Him...it is passing away, He is not.

 

[dlamberth]

Do you claim to be Christian? If not then there are some things you need to learn about the one True God.

No, I'm not a Christian. I've tried that, it didn't work for me. I didn't fit in with the beliefs, the dogma or their image of God and even what Truth is. With that said, I do know Christ. And I'm very aware of the Divine presence of God through out this Creation.

2 Timothy 3:16
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

I understand. But for myself, the ONLY Holy scripture that is the Breath-of-God and directly written and signed off with God's signature with His very own hand can ONLY be found with in this Creation itself.

As Christians, we can't pick and choose what to believe from the Bible, we must use scripture to support scripture or we run the risk of misinterpreting it. A true Christian is filled with the Holy Spirit and can discern truth from the scripture in the Bible.

I'm not a Christian...as such I'm freed from your beliefs and am able to follow the trajectory that God sends me on. God is my life.

Personally, for me to believe what you say about discerning truth from the scripture in the Bible, for me to truly believe that what I'd have to see is your religion ceasing it's antagonism toward the earth and discover it's sacred quality.

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[dlamberth]

If you believe that God created the universe, you have no choice but to believe that it is contrived. Even science will tell you that time is an illusion, matter is actually only energy, etc.. But the fact that the universe was created by God should tell you that it is apart from Him and therefore not One with Him...it is passing away, He is not.

That would be true if that is what I believe. But it's not. I'm unable to separate God out as being apart from this universe. Everywhere I look, there my Beloved is. The very essence of life itself IS God...That includes the energy of which you speak as well as the evolutionary process that produces new life forms.

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[dlamberth]

So you're refusing to find a reason for why we're all here? That seems irrational to me.

It seems way more rational and full of truth to me than does some ancient mental concepts that are based on the doctrine of fixed nature of things.

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[Chriliman]

No, I'm not a Christian. I've tried that, it didn't work for me. I didn't fit in with the beliefs, the dogma or their image of God and even what Truth is. With that said, I do know Christ. And I'm very aware of the Divine presence of God through out this Creation.

Luke 6:46
"Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?"

Jesus may be asking you this very question, are you listening?

Mark 7:9
"And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!"

If you believe in Jesus, you should listen to what he has said and is saying.

 

[ScottA]

That would be true if that is what I believe. But it's not. I'm unable to separate God out as being apart from this universe. Everywhere I look, there my Beloved is. The very essence of life itself IS God...That includes the energy of which you speak as well as the evolutionary process that produces new life forms.

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What you believe or not, does not change what is true.

If you made a pie, could you not separate yourself from it...even if it was the apple of your eye, your beloved?

You have not been representing the God of the Hebrews or Christians with your claims. None of what you just said is true according to God Himself.

 

[HitchSlap]

Both universes are vast. I believe it must begin with an open mind.

In the past, while scientist were still ignorant enough to be humble, they were quite open minded. Many believed in both, without trying to fit one into the terms of the other. Scientists of faith, in fact, have been so influenced by the scientific community's lack of openness, that they have begun a trend of God using scientific means, using evolution, etc. It should be the other way around, as it once was. Strength in man's universe is cool, but it should not be perceived as weakness in God's universe. Contrary to popular belief, perception is NOT reality...especially if it is only selective.

I'm asking how one might a evaluate one's personal experience or testimony as true or not.

 

[KCfromNC]

That would answer many of the debates here...for which I would have to say:

Render therefore to Science the things that are Science, and to God the things that are God’s.

Fair enough. The problem comes about when people who claim that things in God's realm are also things they can talk about. After all, it isn't as if non-scientist humans somehow have magic powers to observe things that scientists don't.
So any limitation put on scientsts because of their human limitations also limits the rest of humanity.