[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] A problem at the bottom of reason

[Chriliman]

I don't think that's a true statement. We don't just wake up after birth being aware of our self-awareness. It's an awareness that we evolve into.

So only at the moment we become self aware do we actually experience reality and begin to form memories? I agree, but it's still true that we are in reality even before we become self aware. A baby is in reality but may not be fully self aware of that reality. This truth of our existence even before we're aware of our existence is an absolute unalterable truth.

My point is that atheists have a very hard time believing in absolute truth because the implications of absolutes point to a God who has created everything, especially when considering the origins of the universe.

 

[HitchSlap]

I cannot prove that reality exists, so I assume that it does, and therefore I choose to believe this to be true. As a result, every decision I make in some way reflects my beliefs about reality.

 

[Chriliman]

quote

Do we agree to believe that reality exists even when we're unconcious? If so, then when we're unconcious, it's still true that reality exists, meaning this truth is absolute or unalterable. Do you agree to accept this as true?

 

[Eudaimonist]

My point is that atheists have a very hard time believing in absolute truth because the implications of absolutes point to a God who has created everything, especially when considering the origins of the universe.

What are you calling "absolute truth" here? Do you simply mean a reality external to one's awareness, about which there may be truths? This is a common view among atheists, and it in no way points towards a divine creator.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[HitchSlap]

Do we agree to believe that reality exists even when we're unconcious? If so, then when we're unconcious, it's still true that reality exists, meaning this truth is absolute or unalterable. Do you agree to accept this as true?

What do you mean by absolute and unalterable, and how does that relate to reality existing?

 

[Chriliman]

I cannot prove that reality exists, so I assume that it does, and therefore I choose to believe this to be true. As a result, every decision I make in some way reflects my beliefs about reality.

Trust me I know. Question: what was your reasoning before you realized you couldn't prove reality existed?

 

[HitchSlap]

Trust me I know.

I don't think you do.

Question: what was your reasoning before you realized you couldn't prove reality existed?

Are you asking what I thought about reality when I was a child?

Please define: absolute truth & unalterable reality

 

[Chriliman]

What are you calling "absolute truth" here? Do you simply mean a reality external to one's awareness, about which there may be truths? This is a common view among atheists, and it in no way points towards a divine creator.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Yes, and if these truths are external to ones awareness, it would be reasonable to believe those truths would not be altered when we become aware of them, correct?

So what beliefs do you hold regarding the origins of the universe?

 

[Chriliman]

I don't think you do.


Are you asking what I thought about reality when I was a child?

Please define: absolute truth & unalterable reality

Not necessarily a child, just before you realized you couldn't prove reality existed.

The best definition of absolute truth I can give is that it can't be defined until it's realized. So the truth that the sun does not revolve around the earth was unknown up until it was realized, but the realization of that truth does not effect the absolute truth that the sun does not revolve around the earth.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Yes, and if these truths are external to ones awareness, it would be reasonable to believe those truths would not be altered when we become aware of them, correct?

Let's be clear on one thing first. A truth is a accurate cognition about reality. I'm not saying that truths are external to one's awareness, but that reality exists external to one's awareness, and it is reality about which there may be truths. So, the Earth existed before there were any living creatures on Earth to regard it as true that the Earth existed. That is a truth.

So, it is reasonable to believe that something that exists isn't altered simply because we become aware of that something.

So what beliefs do you hold regarding the origins of the universe?

Even if the past is finite, physical reality is uncreated. It never "popped" into existence out of nothing.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[ScottA]

No, what statement?

If we conclude that a fly on the dash of a car going 60 (whether having self awareness or not) is unaware of what is outside the car, then we must also conclude that scientists with their focus only on space, time, and matter, would be unaware of what is beyond space, time, and matter.

 

[Chriliman]

If we conclude that a fly on the dash of a car going 60 (whether having self awareness or not) is unaware of what is outside the car, then we must also conclude that scientists with their focus only on space, time, and matter, would be unaware of what is beyond space, time, and matter.

Yes

 

[HitchSlap]

Not necessarily a child, just before you realized you couldn't prove reality existed.

The best definition of absolute truth I can give is that it can't be defined until it's realized. So the truth that the sun does not revolve around the earth was unknown up until it was realized, but the realization of that truth does not effect the absolute truth that the sun does not revolve around the earth.

IMO, this is where your syllogism goes off the rails, as it's based on something that's ill defined. Whether we learn just one truth about reality, or one-thousand truths, it's always as we find it. Which is why I've repeatedly demonstrated to you that we all make three fundamental assumptions:

1. Reality exists (we assume this because we're unable to prove this).
2. We can know something about reality (i.e. the earth revolves around the sun).
3. Models with predictive capabilities work better than those without (i.e. if the earth revolves around the sun, the objective facts will corroborate this).

I'm not sure why you have such a difficult time with this concept? In no way does it require you to jettison your belief in god/s. It's just a baseline position from which we can reasonably navigate what we perceive as reality.

 

[ScottA]

Yes

That would answer many of the debates here...for which I would have to say:

Render therefore to Science the things that are Science, and to God the things that are God’s.

 

[HitchSlap]

If we conclude that a fly on the dash of a car going 60 (whether having self awareness or not) is unaware of what is outside the car, then we must also conclude that scientists with their focus only on space, time, and matter, would be unaware of what is beyond space, time, and matter.

Are you aware of anything beyond space, time, and matter that couldn't best be explained as imagination?

 

[Chriliman]

Let's be clear on one thing first. A truth is a accurate cognition about reality. I'm not saying that truths are external to one's awareness, but that reality exists external to one's awareness, and it is reality about which there may be truths. So, the Earth existed before there were any living creatures on Earth to regard it as true that the Earth existed. That is a truth.

So, it is reasonable to believe that something that exists isn't altered simply because we become aware of that something.

I agree.

Even if the past is finite, physical reality is uncreated. It never "popped" into existence out of nothing.

So if it didn't "pop" into existence out of nothing then the next most reasonable answer is that it came from an infinite singularity, correct?

Except this concept of an infinite singularity is unknowable and so can never be proven to be true, requires "belief". This concept also contradicts our previously established belief in unalterable truth because if it was unalterable true that the universe was once an infinite singularity, it could never be true that it is not an infinite singularity. However, this apparent "singularity" that we observe as the origins of the universe could be an unalterably true creation point, created by an entity that is infinite in every possible way, including infinitely true. In time this infinite entity will reveal itself to everyone, simply because it is the truth about reality.

Seems possible right? and it makes sense, which is why I believe this infinite entity is God of the Holy Bible, because this is exactly how God describes himself in the Holy Bible.

 

[dlamberth]

My point is that atheists have a very hard time believing in absolute truth because the implications of absolutes point to a God who has created everything, especially when considering the origins of the universe.

Well, I'm an absolute Lover of God, and I don't believe in absolute truth. As an example, I know for certain that the Truth I experience, that yes points towards God, I can guarantee is way different than the Truth that you know that points towards God...especially when considering the origins of the universe.

.

 

[ScottA]

Are you aware of anything beyond space, time, and matter that couldn't best be explained as imagination?

Yes, of course. All throughout history there have been witnesses to things beyond, an entire separate school of thought and learning. It is only in recent times that science generally dismisses such information, siting no proof in space, time, and matter. It is a self-imposed limit, suggesting that there is nothing beyond, while the only proof of their claim, is denial, and by setting limits on evidence. History includes evidence of both schools. Science only recognizes one, it's own.

Render therefore to Science the things that are Science, and to God the things that are God’s.

 

[Chriliman]

Well, I'm an absolute Lover of God, and I don't believe in absolute truth. As an example, I know for certain that the Truth I experience, that yes points towards God, I can guarantee is way different than the Truth that you know that points towards God...especially when considering the origins of the universe.

.

By absolute truth, I mean unalterable truth, which I equate to God, because God is unalterable or unchanging. He is the Truth.

 

[HitchSlap]

Yes, of course. All throughout history there have been witnesses to things beyond, an entire separate school of thought and learning. It is only in recent times that science generally dismisses such information, siting no proof in space, time, and matter. It is a self-imposed limit, suggesting that there is nothing beyond, while the only proof of their claim, is denial, and by setting limits on evidence. History includes evidence of both schools. Science only recognizes one, it's own.

Render therefore to Science the things that are Science, and to God the things that are God’s.

What would be the best way to corroborate their experiences?