Perfection or no?

[Bible Highlighter]

The problem with denying in overcoming sin or in striving to be perfect is that the alternative is that it is makes us think it is normal for us to be slaves to our sin in this life (When God's Word does not say such a thing is normal, holy, righteous, or good). We are to be holy and separate from this wicked world.


...

 

[throughfiierytrial]

So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

We must be trying; we won't win the battle over the flesh...the sinful nature...God makes this clear to us in that He sent His son, Jesus Christ. Through faith we are declared righteous. We are sanctified by His Truth [His Word] --John 17:17 so, does He demand perfection? Yes, that kind of perfection, faith and faithfulness, which only He can truly measure in a man.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Thankfully, God has promised to reckon me righteous, i.e., perfect, on the basis of Christ's vicarious atonement.

OSAS.

and it's funny, I know people that go by just that, and the problem, if they don't have to they won't, and end up being some of the meanest people I know because in their mind they can be.

When I was young/a kid, I always got the idea we basically need to try to be good to get to heaven then this new age deception came along. The deception the devil loves, and will end many up in hot water.
But it's all up to the individual and only their own fault, as they choose to deceive themselves because they want the easy way...nothing new abou the actual concept

With OSAS, there is no "narrow path", it's all a "wide road" and that's not biblical, so it should be clear there is something bad wrong there because that is the Bible standing against itself and we all know what happen to a house in that condition..

 

[ByTheSpirit]

No, but you said love one's neighbor as himself was as easy as falling out bed, essentially. You that we just to walk like Jesus, as if there something one could do.

That's a bit of a stretch. I said let's not complicate it.

Scriptures plainly state all who are led by the Spirit are sons of God. Romans 8:14

So follow the leading of the Holy Spirit in your day to day life. He will never lead you to do something contrary to God's Word or violate that command.

If someone should say they can't hear or know the Spirit's leading them in more basic terms The scriptures state that anyone who knows to do good yet doesn't do it to them it is sin. James 4:17

I just do not think it is necessary to burden people with hundreds of little micro commands when really the Holy Spirit says there is just one, love your neighbor as yourself.

All those other "commands" are just explaining what Godlike love looks like.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

The Mosaic Law is no longer in existence; And to say that there is no Law or commands for believers today under the New Testament would be to be to read the NT with a blind fold on.

#1. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
#2. The temple veil was torn from top to bottom with Christ's death. This means that the laws on animal sacrifices are no longer acceptable. The priesthood is no more. Jesus is now our passover Lamb and sacrifice. Jesus is now our priest who intercedes on our behalf.
#3. Jesus says that we are no longer to render an eye for an eye but we are now to turn the other cheek.
#4. Paul says that we are not to judge according to Sabbaths and some regard all days alike in regards to Sabbath keeping (See Romans 14 and Colossians 2). In the OT, you could be stoned for not keeping the Saturday Sabbath. Do you believe in stoning others for not keeping the Sabbath still?
#5. Peter was told by God to eat unclean animals (Which is a violation of OT Law).

Even the moral laws that have carried over from the OT into the New like "do not commit adultery", etc. are not attached with death penalties anymore if they are not obeyed.

So yeah. To say the Law has not changed is simply not true.


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When did I ever say there was no command to obey in the New Testament? I think you should reread my replies. I very plainly stated there is a command we must follow, but it is the only one.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

If you do that then you fulfill the entire law of God.

 

[Nick714]

deleted

 

[Reformationist]

Yes.

Thanks.

But perfect obedience is not a salvation issue even though it is the goal of our Sanctifcation in this life.

Great. I didn't ask whether it was but thanks for clarifying that.

However... if you do not agree with striving to be perfect (Which is the goal of our Sanctification) or if you think you can sin and still be saved on some level, then there is a serious problem. It would be going against God's holiness.

Yeah, uh, I don't have any doubt that the Bible absolutely doesn't teach sinless perfectionism so I'm going to leave dealing with that bit of nonsense to someone else. Good luck with that.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

OSAS.

and it's funny, I know people that go by just that, and the problem, if they don't have to they won't, and end up being some of the meanest people I know because in their mind they can be.

When I was young/a kid, I always got the idea we basically need to try to be good to get to heaven then this new age deception came along. The deception the devil loves, and will end many up in hot water.
But it's all up to the individual and only their own fault, as they choose to deceive themselves because they want the easy way...nothing new abou the actual concept

With OSAS, there is no "narrow path", it's all a "wide road" and that's not biblical, so it should be clear there is something bad wrong there because that is the Bible standing against itself and we all know what happen to a house in that condition..

I have a different theory about the wide road, and it's based on my experience with many people in many churches, and many board conversations.

The narrow road is faith in Christ. The wide road if filled with those looking for rules and commandments to fulfill.

There are a small minority of people who live in light of the gospel, but there are 20 times more who don't. Those who live by faith through grace and understand Christ as their righteousness, are on that narrow road.

 

[Kenny'sID]

And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

I always assumed if all the laws hang on those 2 as Christ said, then that is Jesus saying to obey them. Do some actually think it means they are omitted?

 

[Kenny'sID]

I have a different theory about the wide road, and it's based on my experience with many people in many churches, and many board conversations.

I know,

People have to change things around to make OSAS happen. A different, eye opening, higher knowledge.

Sounds scary to me.

 

[Reformationist]

so, does He demand perfection? Yes, that kind of perfection, faith and faithfulness, which only He can truly measure in a man.

Sorry. You lost me. He does demand perfection or He demands something less than perfection?

 

[Kenny'sID]

When did I ever say there was no command to obey in the New Testament? I think you should reread my replies. I very plainly stated there is a command we must follow, but it is the only one.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

Actually it just says all the other laws/commandments hang on that one. IOW if we were able to obey that one to it's full extent, we would be obeying the others. Go back and read it, I promise that's a fact. but you're on the right track.

Unfortunately, some of us aren't that on the ball and need the basics laid out for us

 

[miamited]

To love your neighbor as yourself fulfills the entire law of God.

1 John 4:20

Actually the whole epistle of 1 John talks about this.

So does God demand we obey his COMMAND perfectly... yes he does, but if we stumble we can ask for and expect forgiveness.

Hi bythespirit,

I was just curious. Have you ever read the Scriptures? If so, would you tell me where I might find this understanding that loving my neighbor fulfills the entire law of God?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Sorry. You lost me. He does demand perfection or He demands something less than perfection?

What in your view is perfection? I laid out the type of perfection I believe Christ requires of us. Christ makes us perfect or righteous by our faith. We at times b/c of our sinful nature take our eyes off Christ and are led into sin. Are we irredeemable? No. Christ extends mercy to the truly repentant and grants forgiveness. Is that perfection? If your definition of perfect is "sinlessness" then clearly God does not expect that of us. But as Jude says we are not to change the grace of our God into a license for immorality.
So to simply say God does not expect perfection from us is misleading. Paul says in Corinthians...aim for perfection.

 

[Reformationist]

What in your view is perfection?

Well, with respect to God's commandments, it would mean keeping the law in its entirety without error.

If your definition of perfect is "sinlessness" then clearly God does not expect that of us.

If God did not expect sinlessness, then why did Christ have to die in your place?

In case you are confused about my stance (and it seems you may be), I believe God does demand of us perfection, i.e., sinlessness. That is not to say we are capable of achieving that, at least not in this life. It changes nothing with respect to His expectation. A holy God could demand nothing less than sinlessness. That is the very reason Christ had to die on our behalf, to meet the requirement we were incapable of meeting.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Well, with respect to God's commandments, it would mean keeping the law in its entirety without error.



If God did not expect sinlessness, then why did Christ have to die in your place?

In case you are confused about my stance (and it seems you may be), I believe God does demand of us perfection, i.e., sinlessness. That is not to say we are capable of achieving that, at least not in this life. It changes nothing with respect to His expectation. A holy God could demand nothing less than sinlessness. That is the very reason Christ had to die on our behalf, to meet the requirement we were incapable of meeting.

We then are close in our thinking...though I'm not sure. When you say does God demand perfection or sinlessness do you mean in order to get to heaven? My answer is No...
Romans 5:14:
Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

We are tarnished with the sinful nature until heaven where the curse is removed according to Revelation...therefore sinlessness cannot be achieved on this side of heaven. Aiming for perfection can be achieved.

 

[Reformationist]

We then are close in our thinking...though I'm not sure. When you say does God demand perfection or sinlessness do you mean in order to get to heaven?

This is actually quite simple, and not at all a new belief. God established a covenant with Adam and Eve based on their perfect adherence to the Law. For them, and their progeny, to inherit everlasting life and enjoy continued harmony with God, the representatives, i.e., Adam and Eve, must keep the law perfectly. They failed, and in doing so plunged themselves and their progeny into ruin. Man fell from grace, he inherited a sinful nature, every part of his being was corrupted by the stain of sin, yada, yada, yada.

Now God, being merciful, didn't leave man in that state of destitution. He established a new covenant. I'll call it the covenant of grace. In this covenant, God mercifully established a plan by which His elect would be spared from His wrath. God still required perfect obedience in this new covenant. However, unlike the covenant He made with Adam, this new covenant, which was established amongst the Godhead, recognized man's inherent inability to meet the requirement of perfection. Therefore, as part of the covenant, God the Father sent God the Son to be a propitiation. Christ was sent to fulfill the requirement of perfect obedience that the first Adam failed to meet. Jesus fulfilled the requirement of perfection and God graciously deigns to credit the believer with the righteousness of Christ.

So you see, perfection is, and always has been, required. The difference is that it is the perfection of Christ for which we are credited and, therefore, we stand before God as justified (this means to be pronounced just, or without sin).

We are tarnished with the sinful nature until heaven where the curse is removed according to Revelation...therefore sinlessness cannot be achieved on this side of heaven. Aiming for perfection can be achieved.

Well, I would disagree to the extent that those that are born again are given a new nature but, for the record, I also acknowledge that the weakness of our flesh will prevent sinlessness this side of Heaven.

 

[GingerBeer]

So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

Why do you think that God demands perfection? I recall that there is a verse saying that God finds fault even in the angels (presumably good angels) yet God appears to accept the good angels.

Behold, he putteth no trust in his servants; And his angels he chargeth with folly: How much more them that dwell in houses of clay, Whose foundation is in the dust, Who are crushed before the moth!
Job 4:18-19
​

 

[Reformationist]

Why do you think that God demands perfection?

Well, aside from the fact that a holy God could demand nothing less, there is the obvious answer that God's requirement of perfection is the answer as to why Christ had to atone for His people. If God required less than perfection, you could have atoned for your own sins.

 

[GingerBeer]

Well, aside from the fact that a holy God could demand nothing less, there is the obvious answer that God's requirement of perfection is the answer as to why Christ had to atone for His people. If God required less than perfection, you could have atoned for your own sins.

Is there a passage of holy scripture that says that God demands perfection of human beings?