Perfection or no?

[Gideons300]

So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

Have we ever considered that the verse "Be ye perfect because Ixam perfect" is a promise rather than a demand?

The essense of the law is:

"Do and you shall be"

The essense of the new covenant is different. It says:

"Be and you shall do"

Our entire thinking here is that we are here, God is rhere and we are trying to be like God.... perfect. But we are told our job is to abide in Him. His job is to grow the fruits in us out of that abiding.

Our problem is that we are trying to make our old nature get slowly transformed into a new one, by doing " new natured things". But this is not God's way. He asks us to believe that the old us already died, we are completely new inside, and that it is as we stand by faith in that truth, we are changed into His image from glory to glory.

So what are we called to do "perfectly"?

Believe. And what are we to believe?

1) When Christ died, we died with him. Our old nature does not have to die. It is already dead.

2) When Christ rose from the desd to newness of life, He brought us up with Him. Thus, it is no more "Do and you shall live." It is "You just remain believing that it is no more you that live, but Christ who lives in you, and I guarantee that I will take care of you doing the things that are pleasing to me".

And why is this? Because HE is the potter, not us. In Ezekiel 36, where God promises the coming new covenant, yes, He promises forgiveness, but there is more, and our eyes are slowly being opened to what that "more" is.

He promises to actually "cause us" to walk in full obedience. His exact words, by the way. And how does He finish off this most amazing of promises?

"I shall yet be inquired of by the house of Israel to DO IT FOR THEM."

We are all in for an amazing eye-opening revelation. Do it for us Lord!

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Reformationist]

God gave Jesus as an example. We should try to do better.

So you believe God demands perfect obedience or no?

 

[Reformationist]

Have we ever considered that the verse "Be ye perfect because Ixam perfect" is a promise rather than a demand?

The essense of the law is:

"Do and you shall be"

The essense of the new covenant is different. It says:

"Be and you shall do"

Our entire thinking here is that we are here, God is rhere and we are trying to be like God.... perfect. But we are told our job is to abide in Him. His job is to grow the fruits in us out of that abiding.

Our problem is that we are trying to make our old nature get slowly transformed into a new one, by doing " new natured things". But this is not God's way. He asks us to believe that the old us already died, we are completely new inside, and that it is as we stand by faith in that truth, we are changed into His image from glory to glory.

So what are we called to do "perfectly"?

Believe. And what are we to believe?

1) When Christ died, we died with him. Our old nature does not have to die. It is already dead.

2) When Christ rose from the desd to newness of life, He brought us up with Him. Thus, it is no more "Do and you shall live." It is "You just remain believing that it is no more you that live, but Christ who lives in you, and I guarantee that I will take care of you doing the things that are pleasing to me".

And why is this? Because HE is the potter, not us. In Ezekiel 36, where God promises the coming new covenant, yes, He promises forgiveness, but there is more, and our eyes are slowly being opened to what that "more" is.

He promises to actually "cause us" to walk in full obedience. His exact words, by the way. And how does He finish off this most amazing of promises?

"I shall yet be inquired of by the house of Israel to DO IT FOR THEM."

We are all in for an amazing eye-opening revelation. Do it for us Lord!

Blessings,

Gideon

I'm not asking if man can be perfect in this life. I'm asking whether God demands perfection.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

In Romans 3:23 (WEB) Paul wrote, "...for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God"

Yes. Nice verse.

God gave Jesus as an example. We should try to do better. I recall a Chinese fortune cookie proverb: "He who rests on laurels, gets pain in backside."

Call me crazy, but I think we start to get into trouble when we get out theology from fortune cookies.

Further along in the parable: Matthew 25:34 (WEB) Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in. 36 I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.’

You cut off an import clarifying section in which Jesus specified which people He was referring to: My brethren. In as much as you've done this to MY Brothers, you've done it unto me. . .

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm not asking if man can be perfect in this life. I'm asking whether God demands perfection.

In the old covenant, yes, in the new covenant, No...

 

[jimmyjimmy]

In the old covenant, yes, in the new covenant, No...

What?!

Are you saying that God has lowered His standards? It's Ok for me to have a brief extramarital affair? Maybe I can fudge a few numbers on my tax returns. . .

For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

 

[Reformationist]

In the old covenant, yes, in the new covenant, No...

Then why the need for the incarnation and atonement of Christ?

 

[Neogaia777]

Then why the need for the incarnation and atonement of Christ?

For the new covenant to come to us...

 

[Neogaia777]

What?!

Are you saying that God has lowered His standards? It's Ok for me to have a brief extramarital affair? Maybe I can fudge a few numbers on my tax returns. . .

For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Christ accomplished the law at the cross, only one needed to, and only one who is God could do it, and that still remains a fact...

No, sin is not OK, just forgivable, (under circumstances between God and that individual alone) is all...

 

[Reformationist]

For the new covenant to come to us...

That doesn't answer my question. If God does not require perfection, why did it have to be Christ who ushers in a new covenant? Why couldn't it be you, or me, or someone else?

 

[Reformationist]

.

 

[Ken Rank]

So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

I would say God desires us to strive for perfection but obviously knows that in a fallen state, we will, from time to time, fall short.

 

[Reformationist]

I would say God desires us to strive for perfection but obviously knows that in a fallen state, we will, from time to time, fall short.

I'm aware that we fall short. I'm also aware that God is aware that we fall short. I'm curious, though, whether God demands perfect obedience or whether He is satisfied with us falling short?

If you believe that He is fine with us falling short, i.e., He does not demand perfection, why then was it necessary for Christ to die in our stead?

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm aware that we fall short. I'm also aware that God is aware that we fall short. I'm curious, though, whether God demands perfect obedience or whether He is satisfied with us falling short?

If you believe that He is fine with us falling short, i.e., He does not demand perfection, why then was it necessary for Christ to die in our stead?

He maybe might demand it of his elect, who are not the great crowd of witnesses who are said to more numerous than the sands of the seashore, Abraham's children of faith, which category most of us fall into, Jesus's "other sheep"...

 

[Nick714]

dont worry about perfection God does that just love the lord your God with all your heart all your mind and do all things onto him.

 

[Reformationist]

dont worry about perfection God does that just love the lord your God with all your heart all your mind and do all things onto him.

Goodness, read the thread, or at least the OP. I didn't say "worry about perfection." We are incapable of perfection in this life. I asked whether God demands it. I contend that the need for Jesus as a substitutionary atonement evidences God's demand for perfection.

Do you agree or do you think God is fine with less than perfect obedience?

 

[Ken Rank]

I'm aware that we fall short. I'm also aware that God is aware that we fall short. I'm curious, though, whether God demands perfect obedience or whether He is satisfied with us falling short?

To say that God is satisfied with sin is to say He is satisfied with that which stands at odds with His character and authority. I don't believe for a second that a Holy and Righteous God is "satisfied" with sin in any form.

If you believe that He is fine with us falling short, i.e., He does not demand perfection, why then was it necessary for Christ to die in our stead?

First of all, I did not say He is "fine with it," I said He was aware of it... we WILL be perfected because we are not perfect. That isn't a license to walk in sin, it is simply reality. As for why Yeshua died? He died because we couldn't work our way into the Kingdom, we couldn't obey ourselves in. If we could have walked it perfect, He wouldn't have had to die. Yet he did, and in dying without sin and raising from the grave, He now has earned the right to perfect anyone he desires. But, until then, we remain imperfect.

 

[Reformationist]

To say that God is satisfied with sin is to say He is satisfied with that which stands at odds with His character and authority. I don't believe for a second that a Holy and Righteous God is "satisfied" with sin in any form.

First of all, I did not say He is "fine with it," I said He was aware of it... we WILL be perfected because we are not perfect. That isn't a license to walk in sin, it is simply reality. As for why Yeshua died? He died because we couldn't work our way into the Kingdom, we couldn't obey ourselves in. If we could have walked it perfect, He wouldn't have had to die. Yet he did, and in dying without sin and raising from the grave, He now has earned the right to perfect anyone he desires. But, until then, we remain imperfect.

Great. I agree with all of that.

 

[JacksBratt]

I'm aware that we fall short. I'm also aware that God is aware that we fall short. I'm curious, though, whether God demands perfect obedience or whether He is satisfied with us falling short?

If you believe that He is fine with us falling short, i.e., He does not demand perfection, why then was it necessary for Christ to die in our stead?

Falling short is what every human does and will always do.

If you want to live a life that is without the need of salvation, ya, this is what God demands from you.

Christ is the only human that ever lived that never fell short.

God demands perfection. However, since we can never achieve this, He sent His son.

Like others have said, we should set our desires for perfection, however understanding that we will never achieve it and God is aware of that.

To accept that we cannot achieve this perfection is not an excuse to just blunder along and follow the world. We are to still be recognizable, to non Christians, as being different in our behavior and actions.
We should be beacons of light to the world shining on God and leading the way to a loving, caring, serving lifestyle.

If you have ever had someone say "you go to church"? or "Your a Christian"? with surprise in their voice.... maybe you should check your life actions.

 

[Nick714]

i would agree that we need Jesus.