Paul's words are not confusing. They are wrong.

[Vedant]

Vedant said:



Foon Opines:

Yes.....a widespread failure.

If Jesus looked at Christianity today he would consider it a total failure.

Thus.....Paul succeeded in destroying the movement called "The Way" that Jesus founded.

That's what I mean. Do you understand it now?

I'm sorry, but I just have to disagree with you! What about people like Mother Teresa? Are they part of the failure? Also, "The Way" is the movement that Christians considered themselves a part of before coming up with the term Christian. The word orthodox, means "the way" or the right way.

 

[Vedant]

You didn't need Paul to tell you anything.

None of us did.

I have to disagree with you again. I mean, technically, we do need people to tell us things, people who aren't the originators. I mean, we don't need philosophers to tell us anything, true, but otherwise, how would we understand Aristotle and Plato? People have to carry on the message.

 

[Vedant]

So Paul wrote a few good things. No argument here.

Paul also wrote horrifically destructive things.

The FundaGelical Televangelists of today are just the same. They pass along some good information and a huge amount of bad.

Some people are taken in by charletons.

That's just the way it goes.

Here's the point.

NONE of us needed any teaching from Paul.

We are all holy and wonderful beings created by God. We simply need to connect with God.

No Elmer Gantrys needed.

Here is a different, view:

We are wonderful creatures, but we are capable of doing both good and bad things. We are neither perfect nor imperfect, but simply human. That's it. The reality is that while we may be in between good actions and bad actions, we must continually strive to do better and continually strive to grow in trust with our Creator who we believe to be benevolent and our friend if we choose to be friends with Him. By this, God lifts us up to become divine with Him and become the ultimate humans that we used to be when we were created.

By the way, which teachings/writings do you not like that Paul wrote?

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

I'm sorry, but I just have to disagree with you! What about people like Mother Teresa? Are they part of the failure?

Foon Opines:

Don't be sorry. Disagreement is a necessity in learning.

Mother Teresa is a bright spot in a dismal landscape.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

I have to disagree with you again. I mean, technically, we do need people to tell us things, people who aren't the originators. I mean, we don't need philosophers to tell us anything, true, but otherwise, how would we understand Aristotle and Plato? People have to carry on the message.

Foon Opines:

Jesus taught us all we need to know.

The Holy Spirit helps us understand......we are programmed to understand from the beginning.

From what I have seen (and I've seen a lot) most of the teachers simply make a living at it--it's a job.....and confuse simple issues.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Here is a different, view:

We are wonderful creatures, but we are capable of doing both good and bad things. We are neither perfect nor imperfect, but simply human. That's it. The reality is that while we may be in between good actions and bad actions, we must continually strive to do better and continually strive to grow in trust with our Creator who we believe to be benevolent and our friend if we choose to be friends with Him. By this, God lifts us up to become divine with Him and become the ultimate humans that we used to be when we were created.

By the way, which teachings/writings do you not like that Paul wrote?

Foon Opines:

Here's all you need to remember.

Paul taught an opposing Gospel .... the opposite of what Jesus said.

Jesus said if you keep on sinning you will die. Simple. Paul's complex concept of "Grace" was notably absent.

Paul said, you will, YOU WILL, keep on sinning and "Grace" will save you.

That's the part of Paul's teaching that I do not like.

 

[Vedant]

Foon Opines:

Don't be sorry. Disagreement is a necessity in learning.

Mother Teresa is a bright spot in a dismal landscape.

Okay, well, at least you can maybe agree that not everything in Christianity is failure. I think what you are seeing in Christianity is humanity, which is prevalent in every institution and organization, religious, business, political, academic, and anything else. We are all one world and one humanity, and that doesn't mean being Christian makes us different on the outside. The change is on the inside, the spirit, which I already said can't be examined scientifically.

 

[Vedant]

Foon Opines:

Jesus taught us all we need to know.

The Holy Spirit helps us understand......we are programmed to understand from the beginning.

From what I have seen (and I've seen a lot) most of the teachers simply make a living at it--it's a job.....and confuse simple issues.

Then why did Jesus, the person who started it all also start the church? Why did Jesus, who had thousands of followers have 12 disciples? You can't deny that Jesus did have people He called to carry on His teaching unless you deny the Gospels. If you do deny them, then at least look at the history of the Christian church and its structure. There were two types of people in the early church, lay and ordained Christians. Ordained Christians were those called to teaching, and laypeople were everyone else called to do other things. I will agree with you that people are human and have mistaught things very often, but while Jesus' teaching was perfect, it wasn't complete from a human perspective. Some things simply didn't exist in His time such as AIDS, global warming, nuclear weapons, and the like. I will go one step further, and you may not agree with me, that the misteachings of Paul are really misteachings of other people examining and translating Paul's writings and not Paul himself.

Sure the Holy Spirit can teach us, but human-ness is much more than spirit. It is body and mind. We are smart, have free will and conscience. We have bodies that need food, sex, and other things. We should align body, mind and spirit towards goodness, and not just rely on our spirit being infused with God's spirit. Part of this is knowing.

 

[Vedant]

Foon Opines:

Here's all you need to remember.

Paul taught an opposing Gospel .... the opposite of what Jesus said.

Jesus said if you keep on sinning you will die. Simple. Paul's complex concept of "Grace" was notably absent.

Paul said, you will, YOU WILL, keep on sinning and "Grace" will save you.

That's the part of Paul's teaching that I do not like.

I am no theological expert, but I don't see this as a theological difference in what Jesus taught. What I do see is that Jesus takes things from the divine perspective, by asking others to sin no more.

Paul took it from the human perspective. While we are to sin no more, reality is that we continue to sin. The concept of grace is that it takes Jesus to stop sinning and that we can't become perfect by our own brute force or will.

 

[TScott]

Foon Opines:

Here's all you need to remember.

Paul taught an opposing Gospel .... the opposite of what Jesus said.

Jesus said if you keep on sinning you will die. Simple. Paul's complex concept of "Grace" was notably absent.

Paul said, you will, YOU WILL, keep on sinning and "Grace" will save you.

That's the part of Paul's teaching that I do not like.

Here's a tip.

If you're going to use what Jesus and Paul say in your argument please give chapter and verse, otherwise no one really knows what you are referring to.

Thanks!

 

[elman]

No. Anything Paul said was either wrong or had already been taught by Jesus.

We did NOT need Paul.

You say Paul brought thousands to Christ?

Sort of......because Paul DID invent a sort of a Christ. An altered one.

So.......it's not thousands to Christ, but millions brought to sin because they think they cannot lead a Godly life.

Millions diverted from the teaching of Jesus and made to become followers of Paul's Gospel of Sin.

Here's all you need to remember.

Paul taught an opposing Gospel .... the opposite of what Jesus said.

Jesus said if you keep on sinning you will die. Simple. Paul's complex concept of "Grace" was notably absent.

Paul said, you will, YOU WILL, keep on sinning and "Grace" will save you.

If you wish to think that Paul's teaching corresponds with the teaching of Jesus, that's your choice.

But such thinking does not agree with the facts.

Here is a fact. We all keep on sinning as long as we are alive. Therefore under your incorrect scenario it was Jesus that was wrong and not Paul.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Paul took it from the human perspective. While we are to sin no more, reality is that we continue to sin. The concept of grace is that it takes Jesus to stop sinning and that we can't become perfect by our own brute force or will.

Foon Opines:

If you keep saying "can't" you never WILL.

That's where Paul stabbed the Gospel of Jesus in the back.

Jesus said "go and sin no more."

Paul said, "Can't."

Jesus said we could be like him and do even greater things than he did.

Paul said, "Can't."

Paul won out over Jesus and guaranteed the failure of the movement.

Hardly anybody has become like Jesus and done greater things than Jesus......and Paul gets all the credit for that.

I agree when you say others assisted Paul and built upon his work......It's still going on. Look at this forum.......almost entirely Paulians.

 

[micknick]

paul was one of those who went on to do greater things than jesus. would he have been granted that power if he wasn't on the right track. pauls teaching prevents despair when christians mess up. its very easy to think after a mistake "o no i did *insert sin here* i can't be a real christian. this can cause a crisis of faith or even make someone turn away completely

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Paul did greater things than Jesus?

Spoken like a true Paulian.

Where do we hear about these great things that Paul supposedly did?

Hmmmmmm.....it all comes from Paul himself and his disciple Luke in the imaginative book of "Acts" (which reads like a cheap "B" movie and is clearly designed to promote and publicize Paul).

Remember this.....only Paul called Paul an apostle.

Actually, all Paul really did was promote himself and collect the money.

Kind of like an early Pat Robertson or Benny Hinn.

Those types never die for their friends.

Jesus died for his friends and his beliefs.

 

[micknick]

jesus didnt die for his beliefs. he died to save us. paul died for his beliefs. paul knew he was going to his death. you have read the Bible with a preconception that pauls the bad guy, and anything that disagrees you write off as fiction, or paul glorifying himself. paul didnt accept money, he worked. and peter refers to him as "our dear brother paul" are we supposed to assume that peter was unaware of any of pauls letters and claims to apostleship? or perhaps you would like us to discount the Bible as a whole and listen to the gospel according to Foon?

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

As you wish.

 

[TScott]

paul died for his beliefs. paul knew he was going to his death.

We don't know that. One of the major mysteries of the Bible is what happened to Paul. Somebody evidently redacted the final section of Acts. The second half has Paul's journey to Rome for a climactic confrontation with Nero, and then ends abruptly with Pauls spending a few years under house arrest and then going on his merry way.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

One of the major mysteries of the Bible is what happened to Paul. Somebody evidently redacted the final section of Acts. The second half has Paul's journey to Rome for a climactic confrontation with Nero, and then ends abruptly with Pauls spending a few years under house arrest and then going on his merry way.

Foon Opines:

Another major mystery is what happened to all that money he collected from his followers.

?

I think he went on his merry way very merry and very rich.

 

[elman]

Foon Opines:

Another major mystery is what happened to all that money he collected from his followers.

?

I think he went on his merry way very merry and very rich.

There is about the same amount of evidence to support this criticism of Paul as to support your other criticisms of him.

 

[TScott]

Foon Opines:

Another major mystery is what happened to all that money he collected from his followers.

?

What money?

Why do I get the feeling that any kind of meaningful dialog with you is impossible?