Paul's words are not confusing. They are wrong.

[Athene]

i do believe Adam and Eve existed. I can't prove it but you might find it interesting to know that studying census records from as early as they go back which is a few hundred years before Christ, population growth has been very constant. Extrapolating it back we end up with a single couple, not at the time of Adam, which would leave us with 10 Billion people alive today, but at the time of Noah and the flood. so if taking time back even 7000 years leaves us with implausible population figures, what happens if you want to take it back further?

The world did fall. God created it perfect, and man messed it up. this is a necessary belief for christianity. if you don't accept this you are not a christian.

What are you trying to say here? That extrapolating back to the time of Noah leaves us with implausible population figures . . .I'd have to agree with you on that one, in 3000 or whatever BC, there were a darn sight more then 2 people inhabiting the planet.

 

[DrFate]

i couldn't agree with you more. and the thing is, at least in my opinion, if one takes it seriously what Jesus said, and all that it entails, redundant confessions would end, guilty consciences would cease, freedom would truly be more than some afterlife hope, and the yoke would actually be easy and light.

it's not an easy yoke to carry to think in terms of, i will never meet the mark, but the mark must still be met, so i will run to grace cause i'm a failed expirament and i will repeat Christ dieing time and time again so i can be set free in my "spirit", in my "emotions" and wait for the time that i have to repeat this cycle all again. it's all too familiar to me.

when suppossed "biblical sound teaching" can exscuse the abuse of what Christ did, one eventually comes to a point that deconversion may be the most holiest of moves and just start over on a whole new mindset.

Maybe Paul had a good idea in spreading his gospel of radical grace. It sure took away the power of many of the surrounding religions.

If it helps some people forgive themselves and repent so they can start anew on the path of compassion I suppose it is ok even if it seems to contradict the OT and Jesus Himself. As I read the book, Jesus died once and said the job was finished. So Jesus is not getting nailed to a torture stick again and again and again. Though TIME being the dimention it is ...

 

[DrFate]

i gave you one reference. proving you wrong, as you said none existed. i could find more, i found that one within 30 seconds of reading your post.

you claim to be more than a mere christian. you claim to follow christ not paul. yet you refuse to accept anything written anywhere in the gospels because we can't "prove" that it was said or done by jesus. so what doctrine do you follow?

Mick I would really like to see primary sources for the documentary proof you claim exists.
Christ is a title not a last name. Christus is a title not a last name.
Come on, Come on, Come on Mick. We are waiting! Yes we are captive fans.
Please please me like I please you ... sorry I was thinking of Sir Paul.

 

[DrFate]

I am not so sure about your statement. Supposedly there are records that show Saul helping kill people who were rioting about the abuses of the Jewish priesthood after Saul supposedly became a follower of Jesus.

"If anyone has really come to Christ, as Paul did, you would see the acts of love you want to see across America and the world"

 

[DrFate]

I never said you shouldn't follow it. I said that as a human you will never be able to live up to it. I do try to live to it. I still mess up. But as you say, since my heart is faithful and I make the effort to try and keep this command, God forgives. THIS IS PAULS TEACHING!!!! Paul never EVER gives a free licence to sin. He merely points out that it is not on our own merit that we gain entry to Heaven, but by forgiveness through the grace of God, which we do not deserve, unless we have been perfect from birth, as only Jesus has ever been.

Actually it is Gods teaching in Ezk 18 that deals with your issues Mick..

 

[DrFate]

Did you proof read your post? I was under the impression that Baptist do not believe in Original Sin.

 

[DrFate]

Baloney and double-talk.

The world did not "fall" anywhere.

If you are talking of some action of the mythical "Adam and Eve" you have gone back to a FundaGelical fantasy world.

Do you honestly think such people ever existed?

Perhaps you're going to try proving that? Trust me, you'll have even less luck than you had trying to prove Jesus existed.

Paul's Gospel is responsible for Christianity being the dismal failure that it is today.......a joke that talks love but neglects the poor, even EXPLOITS the poor, and makes war against the weakest and most helpless nations--and for PROFIT.

Did you ever consider the possibility that Paul never gave up his goal of destroying Christianity......but simply planted that seed of sin that did his work for him?

A quick summary of the plot. Well done Foon!

 

[DrFate]

i do believe Adam and Eve existed. I can't prove it but you might find it interesting to know that studying census records from as early as they go back which is a few hundred years before Christ, population growth has been very constant. Extrapolating it back we end up with a single couple, not at the time of Adam, which would leave us with 10 Billion people alive today, but at the time of Noah and the flood. so if taking time back even 7000 years leaves us with implausible population figures, what happens if you want to take it back further?

The world did fall. God created it perfect, and man messed it up. this is a necessary belief for christianity. if you don't accept this you are not a christian.

Mick, I am willing to go back 120,000,000 years. We can go go back a mere 120,000 years and find evidence of an advanced human teck that was destroyed by some catastrophy. We can go back 2000000 years and find evidence of man with shoes.
I do not know why I, a modern educated man and a Protestant, should be obligated to take as holy writ the computations of the Bishop of Usher or Ulster or whereever that guy worked.
Sorry, I just went WAY OFF TOPIC.

 

[DrFate]

One of the Catholics I knew in my teenage years used to say, "When I get done with Confession I feel like I have a full tank of gas."

I also noticed that they went to church on Saturday night so they wouldn't have to get up with the massive hangover they would have on Sunday morning.

The Protestant FundaGelicals, of course, have a different system. They have a neverending full tank of gas and usually conceal their drinking.

They make up for it by gorging themselves at after-church buffets, (lots of plump FundaGelicals) overshopping, overworking, and beating up on homosexuals, Muslims and Democrats.

This is not the Way of Jesus.......it all came from Paul.

Paul the real estate developer living in Lake Oswego, Oregon? Seriously, there is such a guy claiming to be the reincarnation of Paul of Tarsus busy today. He has books and tapes and followers and a pending movie deal. My point is that it seems to be possible to get some people to follow any belief. It has always been that way.
Paul found a ready market for his system and his head coverings.

 

[Vedant]

Baloney and double-talk.

The world did not "fall" anywhere.

The world is fallen, in my opinion. Think of a baby born in a warzone. Is the war the baby's fault? Is it because of human nature? I'm not going to answer those questions, but would you agree with me that being born under those conditions is not perfect nor ideal? The world could be better, and that is Christian idealism. Now how Christians try to approach their ideal is often more fallen than the world itself, and I often disagree with how bad things occur out under Christian motives or how Christians seem to only care about a couple things (e.g. anything to do with sex).

If you are talking of some action of the mythical "Adam and Eve" you have gone back to a FundaGelical fantasy world.

It's interesting that you call Adam and Eve mythical. Many Christians do use the creation story as myth. That is, using the Bible to explain science and nature, rather than using it to explain theology. The big point of the creation story is that God created the world, and God created humans. Humans, meaning creatures with souls that have complete free will. While science can explain the body and mind, the spirit is something that can't be examined scientifically. That is how humans are different from animals, and there isn't any real scientific evidence you could use to prove or disprove my belief.

Do you honestly think such people ever existed?

Perhaps you're going to try proving that? Trust me, you'll have even less luck than you had trying to prove Jesus existed.

Yes, I do think that at some point in evolution humans became humans apart from animals.

Paul's Gospel is responsible for Christianity being the dismal failure that it is today.......a joke that talks love but neglects the poor, even EXPLOITS the poor, and makes war against the weakest and most helpless nations--and for PROFIT.

Did you ever consider the possibility that Paul never gave up his goal of destroying Christianity......but simply planted that seed of sin that did his work for him?

Firstly, Paul's work didn't start to destroy Christianity. If you look at history, it's his work that made Christianity so widespread. He preached to everyone that he could. Secondly, Paul was not a renegade Christian, but a Christian ordained to be a teacher and accepted by the other original disciples of Christ. If anyone has planted a seed, it's the people who have misinterpreted and misconstrued his work throughout history to justify heinous actions and thinking. The sad thing is that people do exploit the poor. Even sadder is when they do it under the veil of Christianity.

 

[elman]

Actually it is Gods teaching in Ezk 18 that deals with your issues Mick..

I don't think you can leave grace out in Ezekiel 18. One can turn to righteousness and live again. But can one be completely righteous? Can we be perfect in loving our neighbor? I think not. At best we will still need the help of God to be spiritually alive.

 

[elman]

No, forgiveness is forgiveness.

Grace is a gift of power.....the power to lead a Godly and righteous life.

Big difference.

It would be but that is incorrect. The grace is the forgiveness. No one has been given the power to lead a perfect Godly and righteous life.

 

[elman]

I never proposed that Paul ever gave license to sin.

He did not.

He merely presented himself and all mankind as unable to live without sinning.

Jesus said the opposite......"Go and sin no more."

Choose your teacher. If you love to sin, choose Paul's Gospel.

I advise against it.

Jesus did not say all mankind is able to live without sinning. The admonision to go and sin no more is no such teaching.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Vedant said:

Paul's work didn't start to destroy Christianity. If you look at history, it's his work that made Christianity so widespread. He preached to everyone that he could.

Foon Opines:

Yes.....a widespread failure.

If Jesus looked at Christianity today he would consider it a total failure.

Thus.....Paul succeeded in destroying the movement called "The Way" that Jesus founded.

That's what I mean. Do you understand it now?

 

[elman]

Foon Opines:

You cannot inherit sin.

Each human is responsible for his or her actions.......and no other.

If the mythical "Adam" ever existed......he could in no way give us sin to share......it would be his alone and he would have to ask for forgiveness.

Paul does nothing but plant the seed of a sinful life in people.....filling them with the lie that they cannot lead a Godly life.

You are correct that we do not inherit sin. Sin is exclusivly personal. Our sin is ours done by us and no one else. Paul did not say we cannot lead a Godly life. He said we cannot lead a perfectly sinless Godly life. I did not need Paul to tell me that.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

You didn't need Paul to tell you anything.

None of us did.

 

[elman]

You didn't need Paul to tell you anything.

None of us did.

1 Cor 13 is useful information. Some people do not go along with faith that moves mountains being worthless without love. His teaching that flesh and blood would not inherit the Kingdom of God is not accepted by people who want us to have our physical bodies in Heaven. Rom 14 has some very good teaching in it-The Kingdom is not about eating and drinking.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

So Paul wrote a few good things. No argument here.

Paul also wrote horrifically destructive things.

The FundaGelical Televangelists of today are just the same. They pass along some good information and a huge amount of bad.

Some people are taken in by charletons.

That's just the way it goes.

Here's the point.

NONE of us needed any teaching from Paul.

We are all holy and wonderful beings created by God. We simply need to connect with God.

No Elmer Gantrys needed.

 

[micknick]

who are you to decide on what anyone did or did not need? thousands have been brought to Christ through Pauls teachings. i have read the majority of Pauls work and have found it in concordance with the teaching of Jesus. televangelists often declare the wrong message, and if they were truly fundagelical (a word you seem to use as an insult) they would be teaching the fundaments of Christianity, trying to bring people to faith. in my experience they are arrogant and seem to be glorifying themselves over God. Paul never did this

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

No. Anything Paul said was either wrong or had already been taught by Jesus.

We did NOT need Paul.

You say Paul brought thousands to Christ?

Sort of......because Paul DID invent a sort of a Christ. An altered one.

So.......it's not thousands to Christ, but millions brought to sin because they think they cannot lead a Godly life.

Millions diverted from the teaching of Jesus and made to become followers of Paul's Gospel of Sin.

Here's all you need to remember.

Paul taught an opposing Gospel .... the opposite of what Jesus said.

Jesus said if you keep on sinning you will die. Simple. Paul's complex concept of "Grace" was notably absent.

Paul said, you will, YOU WILL, keep on sinning and "Grace" will save you.

If you wish to think that Paul's teaching corresponds with the teaching of Jesus, that's your choice.

But such thinking does not agree with the facts.