Paul vs James who is right?

[Danthemailman]

James simply clarified that "faith" and "belief" are 2 different things. Faith is active, belief is passive. Even demons believe that Yeshua is Messiah. If you only believe that, then you are no better than a demon in that regard.

The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form.

The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent belief" as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance in Christ for salvation," as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

Your works do not save you, but your works are evidence of your faith.

A saved person does good works because they are saved, not because they are trying to earn salvation.

Amen and well said!

 

[FredVB]

Essential faith with which there is salvation is what living faith mentioned in passages is meaning, with that repentance, and there will be works from the fruit of the Spirit showing that, though those do not save any one of us. The thief on the cross who repented trusting in Christ who hung on the cross near him did not have time for works to show but he was saved. God counts the essential faith to provide salvation, and those ones who are saved God seals, that they remain faithful.

 

[FredVB]

That Jesus spoke for repentance is not meaningless, it is essential in faith which distinguishes that from belief. The followers of Jesus had come to that faith which is with repentance, that Jesus spoke for. Believers since are not supposed to have a different kind of belief. It is with trust, that comes with repentance.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

The Greek word dikaioō that is translated to “justified” has three different meanings.

dikaioō
G1344
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

The usage James is using is the second definition. That’s why he says “I will show you my faith by my works” he also says “you can see that faith is working by his works”. James is talking about works being the evidence of our faith. He’s not contradicting Paul.

 

[Dan Perez]

James is right and so is Paul, because Paul means one is saved by lively faith and that means faith that works for the good of the brethren (and sisters) and the establishment of God's kingdom while James wants to counter the idea that passive belief without works can save because it cannot.

I believe that James and Paul are both right .

James is speaking to the 12 tribes scattered ABROAD in James 1:1 .

Paul is speaking to the GENTILES , Eph 3:1-6 .

That is the DIFFERENCE , PERIOD !!

dan p

 

[fhansen]

I believe that James and Paul are both right .

James is speaking to the 12 tribes scattered ABROAD in James 1:1 .

Paul is speaking to the GENTILES , Eph 3:1-6 .

That is the DIFFERENCE , PERIOD !!

dan p

Yes, and aside from that it should be obvious that Paul, as well, understood that faith and righteousness were not to be separated, but that faith is the genuine doorway to the authentic righteousness that comes from God, alone. Faith is the doorway to Him.

 

[FredVB]

Essential faith which is with repentance is needed, for restoration to God through Christ from God's grace, and salvation according to God's sure word, such that works from us show that. And what works? Besides what commandments we find God gives us, there are fruits of the Spirit for us to live showing that we still need to learn to grow in with limiting them less, there is no reason God would want them limited.

 

[Paleouss]

hi Neostarwcc,

I'm new. Hope you don't hold tht against me (lol). I have not read most of this thread so I appologize for anything I say that has already been said.

Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul.

I agree, Paul asserts that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works. I, however, do not agree that James seems to state an opposite position. You don't provide any verses so I will presume you are referring to the perception that James is focused on works in verses like Jam 2:20 "faith apart from works is dead" or Jam 2:26 "for as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead".

I have found it useful, for myself and explanation, to refer to works in which God is pleased as fruitful works. James attempts to explain that fruitful-works, not to be confused with works-fruitful, naturally follow from an "active" (Jam 2:22) faith. In other words, an active faith is one that is being led by the Spirit and from the leading of the Spirit a fruitful work naturally follows. So if fruitful works naturally follow from a leading of the Spirit within an active faith then who can claim that they do no works, yet have an active faith? The answer is, none. Why? Because we know that a Spirit led relationship leads to fruits, in this case fruitful works.

So James points out that if you are saying you have faith by showing you have no works (Jam 2:18), then your faith is a dead faith (Jam 2:20).

 

[RDKirk]

Paul asserts that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works. I, however, do not agree that James seems to state an opposite position. You don't provide any verses so I will presume you are referring to the perception that James is focused on works in verses like Jam 2:20 "faith apart from works is dead" or Jam 2:26 "for as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead".

I have found it useful, for myself and explanation, to refer to works in which God is pleased as fruitful works. James attempts to explain that fruitful-works, not to be confused with works-fruitful, naturally follow from an "active" (Jam 2:22) faith. In other words, an active faith is one that is being led by the Spirit and from the leading of the Spirit a fruitful work naturally follows. So if fruitful works naturally follow from a leading of the Spirit within an active faith then who can claim that they do no works, yet have an active faith? The answer is, none. Why? Because we know that a Spirit led relationship leads to fruits, in this case fruitful works.

So James points out that if you are saying you have faith by showing you have no works (Jam 2:18), then your faith is a dead faith (Jam 2:20).

Paul would call the works generated by faith to be "good works" (Ephesians 2:10):

For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[Dan Perez]

Yes, and aside from that it should be obvious that Paul, as well, understood that faith and righteousness were not to be separated, but that faith is the genuine doorway to the authentic righteousness that comes from God, alone. Faith is the doorway to Him.

I believe that the door way to Christ is in Eph 2: 8 For by GRACE you are HAVING BEEN SAVED // SOZO is in the Greek , PERFECT TENSE and that means OSAS .

dan p

 

[fhansen]

I believe that the door way to Christ is in Eph 2: 8 For by GRACE you are HAVING BEEN SAVED // SOZO is in the Greek , PERFECT TENSE and that means OSAS .

dan p

Paul knew full well that, having been saved, one can lose that status, or fail to maintain it. We're saved because we're justified, and that justice, that righteousness, is real, not just declared, and not just consisting of forgiveness of sin. So now we must walk in that justice. The following does not change one bit with the new covenant; we're simply given the ability to accomplish it now, under grace, by the Spirit, with Him:
"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

Paul and James would've heartly agreed. And faith is the doorway to God because faith is the realization, the "making real" of relationship with Him. It's to acknowledge His existence, His goodness, trustworthiness, mercy and love. It pleases God immensely because faith places us into right stead with Him; it's the first right step for man. And yet faith, itself, is a gift of grace. So it's all grace, and yet all grace can be resisted and rejected by man, at any time.

 

[Dan Perez]

Paul knew full well that, having been saved, one can lose that status, or fail to maintain it. We're saved because we're justified, and that justice, that righteousness, is real, not just declared, and not just consisting of forgiveness of sin. So now we must walk in that justice. The following does not change one bit with the new covenant; we're simply given the ability to accomplish it now, under grace, by the Spirit, with Him:
"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

Paul and James would've heartly agreed. And faith is the doorway to God because faith is the realization, the "making real" of relationship with Him. It's to acknowledge His existence, His goodness, trustworthiness, mercy and love. It pleases God immensely because faith places us into right stead with Him; it's the first right step for man. And yet faith, itself, is a gift of grace. So it's all grace, and yet all grace can be resisted and rejected by man, at any time.

And a verse that " one can lose that status , or fail to maintain it ?

Because Paul writes of OSAS !! in Gal 3:28 !!

dan p

 

[fhansen]

And a verse that " one can lose that status , or fail to maintain it ?

Because Paul writes of OSAS !! in Gal 3:28 !!

dan p

Paul said nothing there about what happens if we fail to remain in Christ Jesus. He does have the following to say, however, among other things:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. Rom 8:12-14

“You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.” Rom 11:19-22

 

[FredVB]

Paul said nothing there about what happens if we fail to remain in Christ Jesus. He does have the following to say, however, among other things:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. Rom 8:12-14

“You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.” Rom 11:19-22

John did, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 5:12-13, if we believe, which is really with repentance, in Christ where we abide we know God, and we love God, we also love others, so we keep commandments in obedience, and are cleansed with righteousness of Christ there for us, so we would not keep on sinning, and any sin coming to light repenting from.

And Paul said something, Romans 8:36-39.

 

[Paleouss]

I think I will stay away from the debate of whether one can lose their savation, I don't think it is the topic of this thread. Although I do have a stance that once saved always saved.

Regarding the topic of reconciling Paul and James.

To fully understand what Paul tells us within his writings, it is important to first know to whom Paul is writing and what misconceptions these readers had in Paul’s day. Many times Paul writes to the Jewish people and many of these times he writes particularly to Jewish Christians. One of the misconceptions of many of the Jewish people of Paul's day was that to be in right standing with God one first does works toward obeying the Law. This is one reason he spends a lot of time on this issue within his writings.

In his letter to the Romans, Paul tells his readers that his prayer to God is for Israel to “be saved” (Rom 10:1). In the very next verse Paul lays out how the Jewish people were “ignorant” (Rom 10:2a) of God’s righteousness. To be ignorant is to lack knowledge about something, in this case, it was the lack of knowledge of how to be in right standing with God. He goes on to say that the Jewish people “established their own” (Rom 10:2b) criteria for justification, i.e., right standing with God, and thereby failed to submit to the “righteousness of God” (Rom 10:2c).

So where did the Jewish people of Paul’s day get justification wrong? Apparently many of the Jewish people of the day believed that satisfying the Law justifies and puts one in right standing. Therefore, they believed that if one keeps the Law, one is justified and in right standing in the eyes of God. Many of the Jewish people lived by a formula that apparently looked something like this...

works → satisfying the Law → brings right standing with God

But Paul had told his readers earlier in his letter to the Romans that this is not the case at all, that is, it is incorrect to think that justification starts with works toward satisfying the Law. And Paul speaks directly to this point in Romans chapter 3.

(Rom 3:28 NKJ)
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

In Romans 1:17 he had written, “the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, ‘The just shall live by faith’”. In Galatians Paul also writes, “no one is justified by the law in the sight of God” (Gal 3:11a) and goes so far as to say it should be “evident” (Gal 3:11b). But the Jewish people had been living by works first and not faith, but as Paul points out, “The just shall live by faith” (Rom 1:17, Hab 2:4, Gal 3:11, Heb 10:38).

Many people, it would seem, stop there regarding Paul and his doctrine of justification. However, Paul actually never stops with being justified by faith first. Within Paul’s writings he never stops with just the assertion that one is justified before God by grace, blood, and faith (Rom 3:24, 5:1, 5:9). He is very consistent in his letters to go on to the next step of the equation after being in right standing before the eyes of God by faith first.

In Paul’s vernacular this next step is expressed as, “therefore…we also should walk in newness of life” (Rom 6:4) and present ourselves “to God as being alive from the dead” (Rom 6:13), presenting our “members as slaves of righteousness for holiness” (Rom 6:19) which is our “reasonable service” (Rom 12:1).

Paul tells us that there is a “reasonable service” (Rome 12:1) that all that believe should “walk in” (Rom 6:4). In Romans chapter 6, Paul writes that we are not called and set apart that we might continue in sinful deeds (Rom 6:1-2). Paul, like all of the NT, is teaching that by grace, blood, and faith we are “made alive by the Spirit” (1Pet 3:18, 1Cor 15:22, Col 2:13, Eph 2:1) and “those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works” (Tit 3:8) for we were “created in Christ Jesus for good works” (Eph 2:10b) and we “should walk in them” (Eph 2:10c).

Clearly Paul is trying to teach the correct formula that many of the Jewish people of the day had gotten wrong. Paul has been adamant that the correct formula to be in right standing in the eyes of God starts with grace, blood, and faith (Rom 3:24-24, Rom 51:9). However, that right standing, according to Paul, should result in being “made alive by the Spirit” (1Pet 3:18, 1Cor 15:22, Col 2:13, Eph 2:1) and because of this we should present as “being alive from the dead” (Rom 6:13). This being alive from the dead is exactly what James is referring to when he wrote, “faith was working together with his works” (Jam 2:22) .

The formula that Paul lays out in his writings is something like this,

grace/blood/faith → right standing → living sacrifice (Active faith) → good works

That is, grace, blood, and faith lead to right standing. That right standing should naturally lead to an active faith that works within that right standing which is the giving of one's self as a living sacrifice. This active, living sacrice unto God works togther with the Spirit and should naturally produce good works (what I like to call Fruitful-works).

James is simply telling his readers, in the book of James, that to be justified in the eyes of the Lord is to be in right standing and that good standing encludes walking in that right standing (Eph 2:10c). And if you think being in right standing stops at faith and does not include walking in that good standing (good works) then your faith is a dead faith.

 

[fhansen]

John did, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 5:12-13, if we believe, which is really with repentance, in Christ where we abide we know God, and we love God, we also love others, so we keep commandments in obedience, and are cleansed with righteousness of Christ there for us, so we would not keep on sinning, and any sin coming to light repenting from.

And Paul said something, Romans 8:36-39.

Any objective bible reader will come to realize and acknowledge that there are both carrots and sticks represented in Scripture, encouraging us in the faith, while warning us about turning away from it.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

As a Christian, we are debtors to live righteously. John says this in very strong words:

1Jn 3:7-9 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Salvation is a journey of obedience, Jesus stated without it one can not receive the Holy Spirit.

John 14:15-16 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—

John 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

The Father does not save the disobedient one. This does not mean a disobedient person can not be saved, but rather the one who persists in sin after God has revealed His truth will not be saved.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Justification is indeed by faith in God, we are not justified by our perfect righteousness. We all will sin at some point in our life, and need forgiveness. But to decouple obedience from salvation, as if it we an unneeded extra is asking for trouble.

 

[Ragdoll]

Paul and James are both right. They just had to combat two different extremes. Paul had to combat those who believed you were saved by keeping the Law as the Jews did. This exclused God's grace which is His gift to humanity through Christ. James had to combat the opposite extreme: cheap grace. This was the view that completely discarded the Law of God and chose to continue living in sin. We still have both extremes to this day. Paul and James are teaching the same thing but at different volumes.

 

[Rescued One]

God's word is always right!

"If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you."
James1:5

 

[Dan Perez]

Yes, and aside from that it should be obvious that Paul, as well, understood that faith and righteousness were not to be separated, but that faith is the genuine doorway to the authentic righteousness that comes from God, alone. Faith is the doorway to Him.

Context is every thing , no matter where what Book in the bible you are reading !!

dan p