Paul vs James who is right?

[Neostarwcc]

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

 

[drjean]

GO to the Greek. Study, word studies are great.

Here's what I get:

James spoke of validating the claim that one had real faith in the Lord; Paul spoke of “justification” as a forensic act made by God.

 

[Theodoric]

What you seem to be missing is the idea of plenary verbal inspiration. That is, it's not "Paul or James, who is right?"

 

[dreadnought]

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

In fact, there are more than one trait Christians need to adopt before entering heaven. Indeed, we need to trust the Lord. Indeed, we need to obey the Lord (works).

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

Both Paul and James are correct. If you read the verse about faith and works in context you will see what James means. He is not contradicting Paul because Paul teaches the works of the flesh where those who practice those things will not inherit the kingdom of God, and the works or actions that come out of the fruit of the Spirit. Paul is saying that the person who is motivated by the fruit of the Spirit will show in what he does. He will do loving deeds, as he outlined in 1 Corinthians 13; he will be joyful in his conduct; his deeds will promote peace and not conflict; his actions will show gentleness and kindness; he will be faithful in all his dealings; will be patient with people; his deeds will show decency (goodness); and he will be self-controlled in everything he does. In this way, he is showing the true Christian character that comes through conversion to Christ by faith. Faith comes first, and faith is a doing word. Mental assent is a passive word. This is what James is saying, that demons believe, or in other words, they have mental assent that Jesus is alive and real, but they cannot have faith which has to be reflected in action.

True conversion by faith takes the following action steps:
1. Acknowledge to God that you are a hopeless sinner, deserving of God's wrath.
2. Accept that Jesus died on the cross for you and that He rose again to give you eternal life.
3. Receive Christ as your personal Saviour and Lord.
4. Repent of willful sin - those things that do not bring glory to Christ, and then allow the Holy Spirit to work progressive sanctification in you (which is a lifetime work). The works of the flesh in Galatians 5 are your guide to those things that you should stop doing. True saving faith in Christ involves the desire and willingness to stop doing those things, and to do things that reflect the fruit of the Spirit.

So, we see that Paul and James are in harmony with each other. It is important to read Paul and James in context and then we see how they harmonise.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Both. They are speaking from different angles.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Works are not a requirement but, if the Born Again One lives long enough we will see good works in them.

Grace Alone
Faith Alone
Christ Alone

If you put me in the mix it's bound to go wrong.

M-Bob

 

[paul1149]

Not only are they both correct, they're in agreement. Paul never preached a cheap grace, James never taught that we could earn our salvation.

Paul was speaking against us thinking that by keeping the law we could merit eternal life. If that were true, there would have been no need for Christ's atonement.

James would be completely in agreement with Paul on this. His book is a reality check, to make sure we're actually living out the faith we profess to have. He is not suggesting an alternate means of salvation. He was speaking to the quality of true faith. True faith will have works. It cannot not have works. Those works may be hidden for a time, such as a change of heart, but they will be real nonetheless. This is opposed to simply saying a sinner's prayer by rote, not out of sincerity. Paul, teacher of grace, would be completely in agreement with James on this. He was very clear that we would suffer in this life, and that we were created for good works (eph 2.9)

Somehow fleshly minds have set Paul and James in opposition to one another down through the ages. The confusion besetting the church from this has been devastating, especially to those young in the faith.

 

[bugkiller]

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

You are only doing two things here - Essentially proving the Bible is literary trash and trying to make fools of Christians by starting an argument.

bugkiller

 

[Rescued One]

God is right. He inspired the Bible. God justifies those who have faith. James was saying "Show me..." In other words men can't see your heart; they have to see your works.

Matthew5
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

1 Peter 2
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Philippians 2
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[Theodoric]

You are only doing two things here - Essentially proving the Bible is literary trash and trying to make fools of Christians by starting an argument.

bugkiller

Well, he failed on both counts. Do you see an argument here? What I see is people very intelligently synthesizing the thoughts of Paul and James into a cohesive idea.

 

[HereIStand]

R.C. Sproul has a good discussion on this in his book Knowing Scripture.

 

[Devin P]

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

I don't believe it's a Paul or James issue really. They both are saying the same thing - allow me to explain.

First, all James is saying, is that if someone claims to be saved, yet doesn't have works to prove of their salvation, then they aren't saved. Their faith is useless, because it isn't attributed to them as righteousness until it impacts the way they live their life. Once their lives change to reflect that faith, then they are saved, but not by their works, by faith. The perfection of the faith, is the coupling of faith and works. Works alone, nor faith alone can save someone.

As regarding Paul, Paul does seem as if he's saying exactly the opposite, but mainly that's because of Paul's strange writing style.

Peter addresses it here:
2 Peter 3:14-18
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

Peter was addressing the issue that was going on at the time. Paul was being accused of doing away with the law of God, but Peter himself, as well as a few other people all backed Paul up, saying that Paul never taught against the law, and that he actually taught and kept the law, but that his writings are crazy confusing, and that people often mixed up what he was saying. He was almost put to death several times for this, which is why Peter addressed it, because it was confusing people. It was causing people to (as verse 17 says) get carried away by the error of lawlessness, because it seemed as if he was saying the opposite of what he meant.

I mean I can link verse after verse of Paul keeping the biblical feasts, and writing to gentiles on how they are to keep the feast of unleavened bread, him teaching gentiles on the sabbath, etc. There are several contradictions throughout scriptures like this, but only from the perspective that the law is done away with. Jesus Himself said that it wouldn't be done away with until the heavens and the earth passed away, but yet there's verses in the psalms and proverbs and prophets saying that His heavens are eternal. Jesus wasn't saying that the law would pass, He was basically saying that "when pigs fly".

By believing in Jesus, according to Romans 11, you become Israel, and you get to partake of the instruction of God. You don't have to. It's the fruit of your salvation, not the root of it. The law of God, isn't a burden. The burden, is when men make a bunch of their own laws to put on top of it. I've been practicing Torah for almost a year now, and I've learned more, come closer to God and have grown in so many ways. It's been an absolute blessing, but He doesn't expect you to be perfect in it, it's something you learn and grow in.

 

[RDKirk]

Paul was discussing the (spiritual) mechanics of how salvation works. James was talking about what the saved look like.

In particular, James was refuting the gnostics who preached that faith was a fully spiritual thing that had no impact on the material life. So a gnostic would say that "true" faith did not manifest in the flesh (just as they said that Jesus Himself was never actually manifest in the flesh). James is saying that if faith does not manifest in the flesh, then that "faith" (koine Greek didn't have quotation marks) isn't saving faith at all.

 

[drjean]

God is right. He inspired the Bible. God justifies those who have faith. James was saying "Show me..." In other words men can't see your heart; they have to see your works.

Matthew5
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

1 Peter 2
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Philippians 2
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

James was the first Missourian? My bad . OT

 

[Soyeong]

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

In James 2:18, he said that he would show his faith by his works. In other words, if you were looking at James and wanted to deduce whether he was someone who had saving faith, then the way to do that would be to look at his good works. This is essentially what he was saying in James 2:24 that the way to see that someone is justified is by their works. We see this same line of thought expressed in Romans 2:26, where the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by their obedience to the Mosaic Law. Likewise in Romans 1:8, it spoke about their faith being reported all over the world and how else do you report someone's faith if not by speaking about the actions that they too because of their faith? That's certainly how Hebrews 11 reports people's faith. Faith is always associated with a willingness to obey God's instructions, whereas disobedience to God's instructions is referred to as breaking faith, but it is not the obedience itself that saves us, but rather we are saved by the faith that requires our obedience. It really doesn't make sense for someone to say that they have faith in God to lead them in how to rightly live while refusing to follow His instructions for how to do that.

 

[Ron Gurley]

The theology of both Paul and James are both the "word of God", inspired and superintended Scripture.

"Faith" / "Belief" and "works" go hand-in-hand.
James 2:22; Ephesians 2

 

[Rubiks]

A part of the book of James seems to be aimed at a common libertine misrepresentation of Paul at the time. When taken in context, both Paul and James emphasized the importance of a changed lifestyle in Christianity. Good works are a requirement, but not a prerequisite.

 

[bugkiller]

God is right. He inspired the Bible. God justifies those who have faith. James was saying "Show me..." In other words men can't see your heart; they have to see your works.

Matthew5
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

No problem here. The problem does arise when one talks about their good works. They become a pharisee gloating on the street corner saying look at me.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. Mat 6

It is not just about thine alms.

1 Peter 2
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Philippians 2
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Some here talk about works while others talk about fruit. What is the difference? Is fruit not noticed? Jesus talks about this fruit in Jn 15 and Paul talks about it in Gal 5.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I don't believe it's a Paul or James issue really. They both are saying the same thing - allow me to explain.

First, all James is saying, is that if someone claims to be saved, yet doesn't have works to prove of their salvation, then they aren't saved. Their faith is useless, because it isn't attributed to them as righteousness until it impacts the way they live their life. Once their lives change to reflect that faith, then they are saved, but not by their works, by faith. The perfection of the faith, is the coupling of faith and works. Works alone, nor faith alone can save someone.

As regarding Paul, Paul does seem as if he's saying exactly the opposite, but mainly that's because of Paul's strange writing style.

Peter addresses it here:
2 Peter 3:14-18
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

Peter was addressing the issue that was going on at the time. Paul was being accused of doing away with the law of God, but Peter himself, as well as a few other people all backed Paul up, saying that Paul never taught against the law, and that he actually taught and kept the law, but that his writings are crazy confusing, and that people often mixed up what he was saying. He was almost put to death several times for this, which is why Peter addressed it, because it was confusing people. It was causing people to (as verse 17 says) get carried away by the error of lawlessness, because it seemed as if he was saying the opposite of what he meant.

I mean I can link verse after verse of Paul keeping the biblical feasts, and writing to gentiles on how they are to keep the feast of unleavened bread, him teaching gentiles on the sabbath, etc. There are several contradictions throughout scriptures like this, but only from the perspective that the law is done away with. Jesus Himself said that it wouldn't be done away with until the heavens and the earth passed away, but yet there's verses in the psalms and proverbs and prophets saying that His heavens are eternal. Jesus wasn't saying that the law would pass, He was basically saying that "when pigs fly".

By believing in Jesus, according to Romans 11, you become Israel, and you get to partake of the instruction of God. You don't have to. It's the fruit of your salvation, not the root of it. The law of God, isn't a burden. The burden, is when men make a bunch of their own laws to put on top of it. I've been practicing Torah for almost a year now, and I've learned more, come closer to God and have grown in so many ways. It's been an absolute blessing, but He doesn't expect you to be perfect in it, it's something you learn and grow in.

I do not believe James is saying prove you are a Christian. That would only mean we earned a badge like the boy scouts. James is talking about faith and not salvation. People who do not go to church or name the name of Jesus do good and even great works (deeds). So exactly what is the difference of those good deeds? What exactly do they prove? Not much IMHO.

bugkiller