• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Paul vs James who is right?

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,717
5,558
46
Oregon
✟1,103,786.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
God will probably judge you by your works that your faith required of you, etc...

Which will probably be different for every man...

But that only God alone can judge only, etc...

And not each one (by) our fellow man, etc...

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
6,723
2,916
45
San jacinto
✟207,296.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If a carpenter wouldn't sit in a chair he built, I wouldn't say he had faith in his skills.

If a man does not obey the Lord and do what is commanded of him, I would not say he had faith in Christ.

The issue isn't a matter of proof, or requirement. It's simply a logical consequent. Faith by its very nature produces works, so if there are no works there is no faith. Which is what James is saying.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,654
8,249
50
The Wild West
✟765,934.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
If a carpenter wouldn't sit in a chair he built, I wouldn't say he had faith in his skills.

If a man does not obey the Lord and do what is commanded of him, I would not say he had faith in Christ.

The issue isn't a matter of proof, or requirement. It's simply a logical consequent. Faith by its very nature produces works, so if there are no works there is no faith. Which is what James is saying.

This is a logical argument.

For me this is all much less of an issue because while I believe we are saved by faith through grace under normal conditions, I do not believe faith is the sole means of salvation, in part because the Epistle to the Romans does not say that in the original Greek (Luther added the word alone to the Luther Bible on his own authority, according to him). I think the ordinary means of obtaining salvific grace is sacramental, with faith obviously needed in adults, and there are also extraordinary means, such as martyrdom, which is faith reflected in a work, and special recourse to divine mercy.
 
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
6,723
2,916
45
San jacinto
✟207,296.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This is a logical argument.

For me this is all much less of an issue because while I believe we are saved by faith through grace under normal conditions, I do not believe faith is the sole means of salvation, in part because the Epistle to the Romans does not say that in the original Greek (Luther added the word alone to the Luther Bible on his own authority, according to him). I think the ordinary means of obtaining salvific grace is sacramental, with faith obviously needed in adults, and there are also extraordinary means, such as martyrdom, which is faith reflected in a work, and special recourse to divine mercy.
While its true Luther added the word "alone" in German, I think its a contextually warranted inference. Though I do think that Romans has become overly fixated upon and is largely misunderstood since it tends to be a starting point for understanding rather than a concluding synthesis. To understand Paul's words to the Romans requires understanding the Old Testament theology he was drawing upon, yet more often Romans is interpreted from the model of Roman jurisprudence instead and then the Old Testament references interpreted from that vantage. As for sacramental theology, I'm of the opinion that the sacraments are efficacious not because of their ritual or adminstrative properties but only when they are physical maniifestations of the internal obedience of faith. Faith is fundamental in salvation, and finds its expression in works(including sacramental works).
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,654
8,249
50
The Wild West
✟765,934.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
While its true Luther added the word "alone" in German, I think its a contextually warranted inference.

Well, the problem is, when we start to modify the text of the Early Church, where do we stop, especially when one doctrine the early church did not teach, Sola Scriptura, that Luther advocated, required unyielding acceptance of his modification of Romans? This really looks bad, in retrospect; if Luther had not taught Sola Scriptura, but instead had stressed something more like the Anglican model of Scripture, Tradition and Reason, or simply had not commented, then one would have no cause to object to this change, or indeed his deprecation of the Antilegomenna, but since he did teach the one, and then effectively modified scripture, basically this had the effect of imposing his doctrine of Sola Fide on the less educated German citizens who could not read or understand Latin; now Martin Luther interestingly continued Latin masses, and they remained a fixture of Lutheran worship well into the 19th century, which is we find five composed by Bach, plus motets, and six composed by Schubert, so educated Lutheran scholars were not impacted by these changes, but this if anything makes the changes he made seem even more vexatious from my perspective, because, combined with his spiteful attitude towards the Anabaptists and others of the Radical Reformation, suggests a condescending attitude towards the unwashed masses, who ironically greatly admired Luther and were his main base of support.

This combined with his “sin boldly” remark, which if interpreted out of context, and his horrible writings about the Jews, prevents me from venerating him, which I would otherwise be inclined to do, based on the horrible abuse of the sale of indulgences and other corruption in the Roman church, which was rectified by Rome in the counter-reformation, and based on Luther’s intense Christological focus, his strong Marian devotion, and his strongly Eucharistic theology, which stressed the real physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist, although I feel in rejecting the complex Scholastic doctrine of transubstantiation he again went too far in introducing the phase “in, with and other,” it would have been better had Luther gone with the pre-Scholastic approach of simply defining the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist as a sacred mystery not requiring further explanation or the use of complex models based on the Aristotelian concept of substance and accidents (which today would be more easily explained using the phrase “perceptual attributes”, since the term accident is now used almost exclusively in English to refer to disasters inadvertently caused, usually by problems with our advanced technology).

So the whole theme with Luther for me is a frustrating “almost, but not quite good enough.” And the thing is, there was a “good enough” at the time in the form of the Eastern church, and second generation Lutheran theologians were surprised when Patriarch Jeremias II of Constantinople disagreed with them, so I can only assume Luther thought he was on the same page as the Patristic church and the Ancient church, which makes his various errors (severe anti-semitism, imposition of doctrinal innovations like Sola Fide based on the doctrinal innovation of Sola Scriptura and alteration of Romans, and the Antilegomenna, misinterpretation of Holy Unction as a curse rather than a blessing, suboptimal Eucharistic theology, Monergistic rejection of the concept of the Eucharist as a rational and bloodless sacrifice based on Roman misinterpretations of Patristic Eucharistic theology, unwarranted rejection of the Eucharistic Prayers of the Roman Canon, the concept of Adiaphora, failure to adhere to religious vows, contemplation of legitimizing polygamy, failure to maintain an Episcopate in the German church, excessively vulgar polemics) that much more frustrating in light of his virtues (sincerity, healthy and correct attitudes towards Confession and partaking of the Eucharist, and the Eucharist itself, good sacramental theology, Marian devotion, Icononodulism, excellent homiletics, focus on preaching Christ crucified, excellent Christological theology with proper stress on the decisions of the Council of Ephesus, and the importance of communicatio idiomatum, and a genuine desire to see an end to the corruption that characterized the Roman church from the century immediately preceding the Great Schism, roughly 950 AD, until the Counter Reformation, and also very importantly, not having anyone burned at the stake).

It is that last virtue which makes me prefer him to Cranmer, narrowly; otherwise I would feel moved by Cranmer’s exquisite liturgical skills to support him, although that discounts the fact that Cranmer’s greatest accomplishment, repopularizing the Divine Office as a public liturgical service, with Morning and Evening Prayer and the Great Litany heavilg attended, was based on reforms to the Roman Breviary proposed by Cardinal Quinones but subsequently rejected by Rome, which has never been unable to repopularize the Office outside of monasteries and cathedral churches, despite many efforts including an excellent reform by Pope Pius X around 1900 and a much less excellent reform and renaming to the Liturgy of the Hours after Vatican II.

So Luther clearly was the best of the well known 16th century reformers, but not as good as his 15th century predecessor St. Jan Hus, who is actually venerated by the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia as a martyr, along with St. Jerome of Prague, nor as good as subsequent Lutheran theologians such as Soren Kierkegaard, or Anglican theologians such as Archbishop Laud, John Wesley and Edward Pusey.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fervent
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,775
1,124
Houston, TX
✟209,989.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Since someone has resurrected this thread, I feel encouraged to post an update also. I think the crux of the question has to do with how one defines faith. So it boils down to the question what kind of faith do we have, and what is that faith in?

It seems to me that faith is trusting in something. We trust that the Bible is the word of God, that God was able and willing to communicate to us through writings of the prophets and apostles (and other prominent Christians of the day) - so faith is an assumption about what the Bible is, and what it teaches.

So, when Paul wrote "with the heart man believes unto righteousness," he is talking about assuming that Christ has delivered us from the nature of sin (that is, the principle thereof), which is the same as using our imagination to reach out to God for making us righteous. If we are in Christ, then we are reaching to God with heart-faith for righteousness. And since deliverance from the sin principle is ongoing in this life, we continue living this heart-faith.

"With the heart man believes..." - meaning that we actively imagine God helping us live at all times. So God is with us at all times, and not someone "out there, demanding we do things by our own strength and willpower". So the ethical commands aren't "do this or be condemned," but rather "Christ has done so much for us, that we are so grateful as to love Him with all our heart, to do whatever He says.

"...unto righteousness" - so that our right standing with God is not merely a position in Christ, but is an active and vital role that God is producing right living through us. And here is James also using the idea, since he says "faith without works is dead." He is emphasizing that the right kind of faith is that kind which obeys Christ's command to love others in a practical way. Yet, when he says "faith without works," he is stooping to the level of the gnostics (or whoever is claiming to have faith in the wrong way) in his usage of the term, in order to distinguish between the claim of faith and actual faith in Christ.

And we can see the same idea taught by the writer of Hebrews (a third witness) when he wrote about those people who died in the wilderness of Numbers, saying about their unbelief "they did not mix what they heard with faith." (Heb. 4:2 - I come to this paraphrase after comparing different translations). He uses the term faith in the same manner.

So what James is writing against is the idea that someone having faith in Christ can do just anything they want (namely practice class prejudice) and still be saved. He is saying that's not real faith in Christ, and that's why it's "dead." Someone having real faith is going to love their neighbor in the same way that Christ does and commanded us to do.

This is the only kind of faith that makes "sola fide" correct in the Biblical framework. It's the only kind of faith that measures up to what the whole NT is about.
 
Upvote 0

pescador

Wise old man
Site Supporter
Nov 29, 2011
8,530
4,780
✟498,964.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Since someone has resurrected this thread, I feel encouraged to post an update also. I think the crux of the question has to do with how one defines faith. So it boils down to the question what kind of faith do we have, and what is that faith in?

It seems to me that faith is trusting in something. We trust that the Bible is the word of God, that God was able and willing to communicate to us through writings of the prophets and apostles (and other prominent Christians of the day) - so faith is an assumption about what the Bible is, and what it teaches.

So, when Paul wrote "with the heart man believes unto righteousness," he is talking about assuming that Christ has delivered us from the nature of sin (that is, the principle thereof), which is the same as using our imagination to reach out to God for making us righteous. If we are in Christ, then we are reaching to God with heart-faith for righteousness. And since deliverance from the sin principle is ongoing in this life, we continue living this heart-faith.

"With the heart man believes..." - meaning that we actively imagine God helping us live at all times. So God is with us at all times, and not someone "out there, demanding we do things by our own strength and willpower". So the ethical commands aren't "do this or be condemned," but rather "Christ has done so much for us, that we are so grateful as to love Him with all our heart, to do whatever He says.

"...unto righteousness" - so that our right standing with God is not merely a position in Christ, but is an active and vital role that God is producing right living through us. And here is James also using the idea, since he says "faith without works is dead." He is emphasizing that the right kind of faith is that kind which obeys Christ's command to love others in a practical way. Yet, when he says "faith without works," he is stooping to the level of the gnostics (or whoever is claiming to have faith in the wrong way) in his usage of the term, in order to distinguish between the claim of faith and actual faith in Christ.

And we can see the same idea taught by the writer of Hebrews (a third witness) when he wrote about those people who died in the wilderness of Numbers, saying about their unbelief "they did not mix what they heard with faith." (Heb. 4:2 - I come to this paraphrase after comparing different translations). He uses the term faith in the same manner.

So what James is writing against is the idea that someone having faith in Christ can do just anything they want (namely practice class prejudice) and still be saved. He is saying that's not real faith in Christ, and that's why it's "dead." Someone having real faith is going to love their neighbor in the same way that Christ does and commanded us to do.

This is the only kind of faith that makes "sola fide" correct in the Biblical framework. It's the only kind of faith that measures up to what the whole NT is about.

Great post!
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Ligurian

Cro-Magnon
Apr 21, 2021
3,609
541
America
✟30,218.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

What does faith mean to you?

James says if we have faith in God, we will do what He commands. If Abraham had thought to himself, "God didn't mean me to kill my first born upon which the covenant depends," and then refused to go sacrifice Isaac... would Abraham have been faithful to God? A friend of God does what God commands. Jesus says the same thing of Himself, when He said He "laid down His life for His friends"... finishing with, "ye are My friends if ye do whatsoever I command". So a friend of God is the one who does what God tells him to do, in both the OT and the NT.

The whole passage of Matthew 10, regarding the sending of the 12 to preach the Kingdom of Heaven, is called a "commandment"... because it ends in that very word, saying in Matthew 11 that when Jesus had finished commanding His Discipled Apostles, etc. In other words, when Jesus returned from Heaven glorified, and told His 11 remaining Disciples (ye are My disciples if ye continue in My word, John 8) to preach to the world the obedience of whatsoever he had taught to them. And Jesus taught nothing but the Commandments of the Father, as proven by John 12:44-50, etc.

As for Pauline metaphysics, I don't think Paul was very different--in some aspects--from the Greek Philosophers, which makes Paul's term "empty philosophy" an altogether confusing idea. Why warn them to stay away from that which he clearly had knowledge and even paraphrased at will?

Did the Apostle Paul take Inspiration from Ancient Philosophers?
 
Upvote 0

pescador

Wise old man
Site Supporter
Nov 29, 2011
8,530
4,780
✟498,964.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

They are not in conflict. One isn't saved by her/his works, but by faith in God through Jesus Christ. What James is saying is that if you have been blessed by God with salvation then you shouldn't just "sit on your hands" and do nothing. Since you have Jesus as your Lord then you're expected to do what He directs, using the gifts and talents He has given you. It does not mean that if you are idle you aren't saved.\

I'm 78 and there are days when I lack the energy to do certain things. Does that mean that I'm not saved? Of course not.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
6,723
2,916
45
San jacinto
✟207,296.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
They are not in conflict. One isn't saved by her/his works, but by faith in God through Jesus Christ. What James is saying is that if you have been blessed by God with salvation then you shouldn't just "sit on your hands" and do nothing. Since you have Jesus as your Lord then you're expected to do what He directs, using the gifts and talents He has given you. It does not mean that if you are idle you aren't saved.\

I'm 78 and there are days when I lack the energy to do certain things. Does that mean that I'm not saved? Of course not.
What's funny about people trying to use James' words as a stick to make people perform is the "works" that James points to for Abraham's justification. Abraham's works were that he was willing to give up Isaac because he trusted God, as Hebrews tells us his reasoning was God could raise the dead. What justified Abraham is not the building of the pyre, nor binding Isaac's hand and foot and lifting the knife to perform the act but that Abraham had full faith and confidence that he would lose nothing through the deed.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: pescador
Upvote 0

Ligurian

Cro-Magnon
Apr 21, 2021
3,609
541
America
✟30,218.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
What's funny about people trying to use James' words as a stick to make people perform is the "works" that James points to for Abraham's justification. Abraham's works were that he was willing to give up Isaac because he trusted God, as Hebrews tells us his reasoning was God could raise the dead. What justified Abraham is not the building of the pyre, nor binding Isaac's hand and foot and lifting the knife to perform the act but that Abraham had full faith and confidence that he would lose nothing through the deed.

Genesis 22:6 And Abraam took the wood of the whole burnt-offering, and laid it on Isaac his son, and he took into his hands both the fire and the knife, and the two went together. 7 And Isaac said to Abraam his father, Father. And he said, What is it, son? And he said, Behold the fire and the wood, where is the sheep for a whole-burnt-offering? 8 And Abraam said, God will provide Himself a sheep for a whole-burnt-offering, my son. 11 And an angel of the Lord called him out of heaven, and said, Abraam, Abraam. And he said, Behold, I am here. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the child, neither do anything to him, for now I know that thou fearest God, and for My sake thou hast not spared thy beloved son. 13 And Abraam lifted up his eyes and beheld, and lo! a ram caught by his horns in a plant of Sabec; and Abraam went and took the ram, and offered him up for a whole-burnt-offering in the place of Isaac his son.LXX
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,717
5,558
46
Oregon
✟1,103,786.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
What's funny about people trying to use James' words as a stick to make people perform is the "works" that James points to for Abraham's justification. Abraham's works were that he was willing to give up Isaac because he trusted God, as Hebrews tells us his reasoning was God could raise the dead. What justified Abraham is not the building of the pyre, nor binding Isaac's hand and foot and lifting the knife to perform the act but that Abraham had full faith and confidence that he would lose nothing through the deed.
But do you know why God had him do it, etc...?

Because I'm betting none of you really know truly why, etc...

But I do, etc...

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,717
5,558
46
Oregon
✟1,103,786.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
But do you know why God had him do it, etc...?

Because I'm betting none of you really know truly why, etc...

But I do, etc...

God Bless!
But I'll give you just one clue, etc...

Just one, etc...

It was a plea for mercy from His own God concerning His own Son that was to come, or was maybe going to (have to) come, etc...

And when you get that part of it figured out, let me know, etc...

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,717
5,558
46
Oregon
✟1,103,786.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
But I'll give you just one clue, etc...

Just one, etc...

It was a plea for mercy from His own God concerning His own Son that was to come, or was maybe going to (have to) come, etc...

And when you get that part of it figured out, let me know, etc...

God Bless!
And there were a few other reasons of course, but that particular one, very, very few of you, or absolutely none of you know about, etc...

God Bless!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,654
8,249
50
The Wild West
✟765,934.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate

God bless you. I would love to add you to the list of people I pray for by Christian name at Holy Communion, if you felt comfortable sharing via PM or publicly your baptized name only; otherwise I can pray for you as pescador, and if you have any special requests or health concerns I can pray for those as well in the abstract, and I would ask for your prayers and the prayers of all readers of this thread, for the continued health of my 72 year old mother Anna, who suffers from neuropathic pain due to a car crash where a distracted driver plowed into her in the 1980s breaking her back, and on a lesser note, my tendonitis, which is due to a hereditary disease. My name is Gene.

What's funny about people trying to use James' words as a stick to make people perform is the "works" that James points to for Abraham's justification. Abraham's works were that he was willing to give up Isaac because he trusted God, as Hebrews tells us his reasoning was God could raise the dead. What justified Abraham is not the building of the pyre, nor binding Isaac's hand and foot and lifting the knife to perform the act but that Abraham had full faith and confidence that he would lose nothing through the deed.

This is a very good point. To the limited extent I am not sola fide, it is only because I believe that works performed with faith in God are salvific, including the sacrament and almsgiving, but works without faith seem as dead as faith without works. I just am hesitant to embrace a dichotomy absent from the early church.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,654
8,249
50
The Wild West
✟765,934.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
They are not in conflict. One isn't saved by her/his works, but by faith in God through Jesus Christ. What James is saying is that if you have been blessed by God with salvation then you shouldn't just "sit on your hands" and do nothing. Since you have Jesus as your Lord then you're expected to do what He directs, using the gifts and talents He has given you. It does not mean that if you are idle you aren't saved.\

Absolutely. An Eastern Orthodox monk taught that two thoughts should be avoided, fled from, was his exact word, by Christians, the first being that we are personally holy or specially blessed, which contradicts “not I but Christ in me” and makes one Holier-than-thou, destroying humility and leading to spiritual delusion, and the other is the idea that we have sinned or are sinful to the point where we are beyond the hope of salvation, which leads to despair and other destructive passions including misotheistic self-pity.
 
Upvote 0

HIM

Friend
Site Supporter
Mar 9, 2018
4,978
2,047
59
Alabama
Visit site
✟560,379.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?
You are mistaken my friend Paul and James taught the same thing
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
6,723
2,916
45
San jacinto
✟207,296.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This is a very good point. To the limited extent I am not sola fide, it is only because I believe that works performed with faith in God are salvific, including the sacrament and almsgiving, but works without faith seem as dead as faith without works. I just am hesitant to embrace a dichotomy absent from the early church.
To me it's immaterial whether we declare sola fide, as the polemics have largely caused that to mean something that is simply not true. It is simply that we must maintain that there is no earning salvation through our personal merit since we are are beggars. Justification by faith only remains true so long as we remember that faith has content and an object rather than being an empty agreement with a proposition.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,654
8,249
50
The Wild West
✟765,934.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
To me it's immaterial whether we declare sola fide, as the polemics have largely caused that to mean something that is simply not true. It is simply that we must maintain that there is no earning salvation through our personal merit since we are are beggars. Justification by faith only remains true so long as we remember that faith has content and an object rather than being an empty agreement with a proposition.

Exactly. We are of one accord. What denomination are you if I might ask?
 
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
6,723
2,916
45
San jacinto
✟207,296.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Exactly. We are of one accord. What denomination are you if I might ask?
I worship at a Southern Baptist church but don't really consider myself to belong to any denomination, my theology is ecclectic as I find myself agreeing with positions across the spectrum.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0