Paul vs James who is right?

[mark kennedy]

Same person? You mean while I was properly harmonizing scripture with scripture, you played some music by Strauss.

It looks like you copied one of my quotes, you just cited it wrong, it's not from the Strong's dictionary. It's from the Outline of Biblical Usage.

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.

It was properly cited in my post. This is the definition from Strong's:

δικαιόω dikaióō, dik-ah-yo'-o; from G1342; to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent:—free, justify(-ier), be righteous. (See G1344 δικαιόω BLB)
​

You had some original thoughts and some interesting insights but the quote was improperly cited.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Wordkeeper]

I claimed no such thing, I said the rich were depriving the poor in the love feasts.



Uhhh ok...


I'll tell you what's misleading, it's putting words in my mouth, it's disingenuous at best. When Jesus condemns the hypocrites of the Great White Throne judgment he says I was hungry you did not feed me, I was thirsty you did not give me to drink...etc. The poor were coming to these love feasts and while the rich feed their faces they went hungry. They dragged the poor into court which James calls blasphemy. Why is that blasphemy you might ask, because a slanderous accusation against a believer is something Christ takes personally.

I dodged nothing.

Its easy to prove if a dodging has occurred.

Will you agree that there are no disciples of Christ amongst your acquaintances and you have avoided telling them of their lack? Is their blood upon your head for not telling the righteous person of their lack?

 

[mark kennedy]

Its easy to prove if a dodging has occurred.

Will you agree that there are no disciples of Christ amongst your acquaintances and you have avoided telling them of their lack? Is their blood upon your head for not telling the righteous person of their lack?

I don't know what your talking about, I'm not in the habit of discussing my personal business online. We are discussing James 2 was what it means to be justified by works as well as faith.

And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. (1 John 3:23)

Above all, love one another deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. Show hospitality to one another without complaining. (1 Peter 3:8-9)​

Your sin is not what you did, it is, but it's what you lack. John, Peter, Paul and James are all telling us in no uncertain terms what we lack.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Wordkeeper]

I don't know what your talking about, I'm not in the habit of discussing my personal business online. We are discussing James 2 was what it means to be justified by works as well as faith.

And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. (1 John 3:23)

Above all, love one another deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. Show hospitality to one another without complaining. (1 Peter 3:8-9)​

Your sin is not what you did, it is, but it's what you lack. John, Peter, Paul and James are all telling us in no uncertain terms what we lack.

Grace and peace,
Mark

The topic is about proper responses to the call.

It's interesting that the first century witnesses to the people received negative responses because the listeners KNEW joining the church involved losing their property either immediately or eventually, in exchange for a powerful ministry and all other things being added to that. James taught that the rich man would fade away like a flower.

Today people respond negatively because it's pie in the sky. You don't have to do anything, just believe and when you die, you'd be plunking away at a ukulele. Didn't sound reasonable, the world doesn't work that way. Everybody knows there's no free lunches. Caveat emptor.

When did the message change?

 

[Danthemailman]

It looks like you copied one of my quotes, you just cited it wrong, it's not from the Strong's dictionary. It's from the Outline of Biblical Usage.

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.

It was properly cited in my post. This is the definition from Strong's:

δικαιόω dikaióō, dik-ah-yo'-o; from G1342; to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent:—free, justify(-ier), be righteous. (See G1344 δικαιόω BLB)
​

You had some original thoughts and some interesting insights but the quote was improperly cited.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I guess that it's technically "The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon" yet I saw Strong's Number 1344. See below. *The main point is that the word "justified" is used differently, depending on the CONTEXT.

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 1344 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
dikaioo from (1342)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Dikaioo 2:211,168
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
dik-ah-yo'-o Verb
Definition

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Dikaioo - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

 

[Danthemailman]

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was "justified by works." *He was "shown to be righteous."

 

[mark kennedy]

I guess that it's technically "The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon" yet I saw Strong's Number 1344. See below. *The main point is that the word "justified" is used differently, depending on the CONTEXT.

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 1344 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
dikaioo from (1342)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Dikaioo 2:211,168
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
dik-ah-yo'-o Verb
Definition

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Dikaioo - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Huh, ok that sounds like a reasonable explanation. I was just pointing it out, it looks like we both did a search and came up with identical results, it happens.

 

[Rita G.]

In response to the OP (not to those who copy & paste large sections of commentaries) ‘save’ in James 2:14 means the same thing as ‘justified’ in 2:24. The difference between Paul and James is:

Paul = salvation by faith alone
James = salvation by faith PLUS works

 

[mark kennedy]

In response to the OP (not to those who copy & paste large sections of commentaries) ‘save’ in James 2:14 means the same thing as ‘justified’ in 2:24. The difference between Paul and James is:

Paul = salvation by faith alone
James = salvation by faith PLUS works

A text without a context is a pretext.

 

[Rita G.]

A text without a context is a pretext.

How many times are you going to use that stupid cliché. It’s not in the Bible.

 

[mark kennedy]

How many times are you going to use that stupid cliché. It’s not in the Bible.

I'll keep doing it until you read the text in it's natural context.

 

[AFrazier]

In response to the OP (not to those who copy & paste large sections of commentaries) ‘save’ in James 2:14 means the same thing as ‘justified’ in 2:24. The difference between Paul and James is:

Paul = salvation by faith alone
James = salvation by faith PLUS works

That's not actually correct.

Galatians 5:1-6 — "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

1 Corinthians 13:2 — "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity (ἀγάπην — love), I am nothing."

Ephesians 2:8-10 — "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

We are saved by faith, not by works. But faith that does not have the works of love is not a real faith. It is dead. People who believe they can have faith without works and just sit around believing are deceiving themselves. As James says, even the devils believe and tremble. If we aren't living a life of love, then we don't really have faith. That's why James makes his comment in the context of the works of love ...

James 2:14-17 — "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

John says the same thing.

1 John 3:14-19 — "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him."

Please note the similarities here —

James: If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

John: But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

And this follows with Christ himself —

25:41-46 — "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment."

So we are saved by grace through faith. But faith that does not have the works of love is a lie. "He that loveth not his brother abideth in death," which is the same as James, saying, "faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." If we're saved by faith, and our faith is dead, then we aren't saved at all.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I do not think you understand work. Yes Eph 2:8-9 says - not of works, but what works?

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The next verse says - 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Remember it is not our works in v 9. We have nothing to boast about. Verse 10 says we are created unto good works and we are to walk in them. Hmmm! Is that a contradiction? No!

bugkiller

no, you misunderstand when I quoted this verse

"Romans 4 - 5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”"

I was showing that it is not of our works of merit to put God in our debt, or the works of the law, or the works of the flesh. When person believe the gospel Christ will dwell in his heart by faith. Then he is born again and a new creation and God now works in him to will and to do and to make him perfect unto every good work to do his will as scripture says.

So we are saved by works and justified by works. But these works are from God who sent Jesus to die on the cross for us without us and who comes in the heart by faith to those who believe and gives us life and makes us the righteousness of God in Christ. Then we can do all things, in the flesh we can do nothing. It starts in the spirit and the flesh is brought into subjection to that.

So if a man says he has faith and yet is not born again, he is deceived. If a man says he has faith and does not have God working in him he is vain and his faith is vain.

 

[Rita G.]

That's not actually correct.

So . . what is it?
saved by faith? . . or . .
saved by faith plus works?

 

[mark kennedy]

Come on Rita G., how many times are you going to have to hear this before you finally understand?

So . . what is it?
saved by faith? . . or . .
saved by faith plus works?

A faith that works

 

[LoveofTruth]

So . . what is it?
saved by faith? . . or . . faith plus works?

Saved by grace.....through faith. The grace of God is His free gift given in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ dwelling in our heart by faith.

The grace saves.

 

[LoveofTruth]

So . . what is it?
saved by faith? . . or . .
saved by faith plus works?

as the body without the spirit is dead so a believer without Jesus Christ in him is dead also.

but if God is in believers then we can do all things.

 

[bugkiller]

Its easy to prove if a dodging has occurred.

Will you agree that there are no disciples of Christ amongst your acquaintances and you have avoided telling them of their lack? Is their blood upon your head for not telling the righteous person of their lack?

There are many problems with religious activity. Generally it is not real smart to engage an non inquirer. I find they do not want to discuss religious topics. Many people here are prime examples why. If a person's life is not different enough to be an attractant maybe we should find out why. The Bible does say let your light shine. In my church attendance I find two polarized types mostly - the so religious they are no earthly good and those I can not tell any difference from them and those non churched. There are a few exceptions. I have a friend who runs a business and refuses to put up religious material but gets asked if she is a Christian. We need many more like her/them. The business is a husband wife business.

So my problem is I do not wish to be like the first group and definitely not like the second group. Neither are reachable and do lots of damage to the cause of Christ.

bugkiller

 

[Rita G.]

A faith that works

what works? what kind of works are you talking about?

 

[bugkiller]

The topic is about proper responses to the call.

It's interesting that the first century witnesses to the people received negative responses because the listeners KNEW joining the church involved losing their property either immediately or eventually, in exchange for a powerful ministry and all other things being added to that. James taught that the rich man would fade away like a flower.

Today people respond negatively because it's pie in the sky. You don't have to do anything, just believe and when you die, you'd be plunking away at a ukulele. Didn't sound reasonable, the world doesn't work that way. Everybody knows there's no free lunches. Caveat emptor.

When did the message change?

Yep I paid the price until I fully understood. Opening my mouth always seemed to be causing dissension because they do not want the truth. Instead of selling my soul to get along I dropped out.

bugkiller