Paul vs James who is right?

[bugkiller]

I'll keep doing it until you read the text in it's natural context.

Good man. Keep it up. I love it.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

So . . what is it?
saved by faith? . . or . .
saved by faith plus works?

I still want to know what these works actually are. I do not want some general statement.

bugkiller

 

[justbyfaith]

This is for @Rita G. and all others who believe in the equation faith + works = salvation.
I can do all kinds of works and none of them will enact an inward change in me, they are outward and superficial. But if I put my faith in Jesus Christ alone, it will enact an inward change that results in outward righteousness. I can have outward righteousness without inward change, but inward change will always produce outward righteousness if given the opportunity (i.e. it is not a deathbed conversion). Thus if there are no works faith is questionable. But if I give money to the poor, does that save me? No; it is outward and superficial, it doesn't produce an inward change. If I have an inward change, might that lead me to give to the poor? You betcha. Thus a living faith produces works but we are not saved by the works to any degree. We are saved through faith in Christ and what He did for us on the Cross, and this salvation IS the inward reality of being transformed.

I think this might have gotten lost in the shuffle. It says it all for me.

 

[Danthemailman]

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show or prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Simple!

 

[mark kennedy]

what works? what kind of works are you talking about?

Works of righteousness, what they are stems from the love of God being shed abroad in our hearts. Over time the believer comes to love the things of God and the people God loves. I don't have some divine check list, as your relationship with God in Christ matures the Holy Spirit puts these things in your heart.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Yep I paid the price until I fully understood. Opening my mouth always seemed to be causing dissension because they do not want the truth. Instead of selling my soul to get along I dropped out.

bugkiller

You seemed to have dropped out for opposite reasons to me.

The situation can be more easily understood if we remember that in the ancient near east, ANE, pistes is translated as loyalty, not belief.

So if a person is loyal to Christ, he has switched from serving mammon, loving self, to serving God, loving others as ourselves.

This helps in making us realize that repentance is not a change from unbelief that Jesus is messiah, to belief. It is a change from selfish living to unselfish living, laying down our lives for others. Mammon is selfish living. Giving up all your possessions frees you from mammon. That is the clear message of the text.

Is also clear that no one has repented, all are still unsaved.

 

[Rita G.]

Works of righteousness, what they are stems from the love of God being shed abroad in our hearts. Over time the believer comes to love the things of God and the people God loves. I don't have some divine check list, as your relationship with God in Christ matures the Holy Spirit puts these things in your heart.

So can’t you tell me what ‘works of righteousness’ you do that makes you different from an unsaved person?

 

[AFrazier]

what works? what kind of works are you talking about?

I gave you plenty of scripture to show what kind of works these are. Works of love.

If they're hungry, feed them. If they're naked, clothe them.

If someone needs help and you can provide it, it is your Christian duty to do so. Those are the works of love.

 

[AFrazier]

I still want to know what these works actually are. I do not want some general statement.

bugkiller

Works of love. Read my post, #172. I think the scriptures provided give a good enough example for you to extrapolate a working list, if that's what you think you need.

 

[mark kennedy]

So can’t you tell me what ‘works of righteousness’ you do that makes you different from an unsaved person?

The issue isn't what I think works of righteousness are, we are talking about James and I think he was pretty clear. Did you ever get around to reading it?

 

[Rita G.]

Did you ever get around to reading it?

Yes, and 1:1 says it's addressed to Jews. Are you a Jew?
If one of your 'works of righteousness' is dodging questions, I'm impressed!

 

[mark kennedy]

Yes, and 1:1 says it's addressed to Jews. Are you a Jew?
If one of your 'works of righteousness' is dodging questions, I'm impressed!

Well at least you got through the first verse, that's a start. If you want an answer to the question then ask James because he makes himself very clear on what works he means. This isn't about me, this is about James, your wasting your time chasing this in circles with me. You need to take a look at the actual text, in it's natural context.

Yes, he is writing to the Jews but the message is not unlike the one Paul delivered to the Romans who were Jews. More importantly the message is nearly identical to the problems Paul was dealing with in 1 Corinthians 11. A point you have managed to dodge the entire thread.

 

[Rita G.]

James is written to Jews and NEVER EVEN MENTIONS gentiles.
OK, Your Righteousness?
Now, please tell us all about how righteous you are.

 

[mark kennedy]

James is written to Jews and NEVER EVEN MENTIONS gentiles.
OK, Your Righteousness?
Now, please tell us all about how righteous you are.

We are not talking about me, we are talking about James.

 

[Sam91]

We are not talking about me, we are talking about James.

Think she might be trolling, ignores me... unless she has hidden me

 

[mark kennedy]

Think she might be trolling, ignores me... unless she has hidden me

I just think she is arguing in circles, begging the question of proof on her hands and knees. When it comes to debate fallacies are deadly, the conversation will descend into every smaller circles until it comes down to biting personal remarks, the inevitable ad hominem. It doesn't really matter what the subject matter is, when they reduce their argument to that, I know they have nothing left.

I don't know about trolling, but it's obviously fallacious.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, @Sam91, I feel the same way. What I re-posted to @Rita G. in post #183 answers her position quite nicely impaho. But she has failed to respond. I will try to repost it again below to make it easier for her.

 

[justbyfaith]

This is for @Rita G. and all others who believe in the equation faith + works = salvation.
I can do all kinds of works and none of them will enact an inward change in me, they are outward and superficial. But if I put my faith in Jesus Christ alone, it will enact an inward change that results in outward righteousness. I can have outward righteousness without inward change, but inward change will always produce outward righteousness if given the opportunity (i.e. it is not a deathbed conversion). Thus if there are no works faith is questionable. But if I give money to the poor, does that save me? No; it is outward and superficial, it doesn't produce an inward change. If I have an inward change, might that lead me to give to the poor? You betcha. Thus a living faith produces works but we are not saved by the works to any degree. We are saved through faith in Christ and what He did for us on the Cross, and this salvation IS the inward reality of being transformed.

 

[Wordkeeper]

This is for @Rita G. and all others who believe in the equation faith + works = salvation.
I can do all kinds of works and none of them will enact an inward change in me, they are outward and superficial. But if I put my faith in Jesus Christ alone, it will enact an inward change that results in outward righteousness. I can have outward righteousness without inward change, but inward change will always produce outward righteousness if given the opportunity (i.e. it is not a deathbed conversion). Thus if there are no works faith is questionable. But if I give money to the poor, does that save me? No; it is outward and superficial, it doesn't produce an inward change. If I have an inward change, might that lead me to give to the poor? You betcha. Thus a living faith produces works but we are not saved by the works to any degree. We are saved through faith in Christ and what He did for us on the Cross, and this salvation IS the inward reality of being transformed.

You need to put one aspect of faith sharply in focus.

Christ didn't come to feed the poor or heal the sick. He came to show that men could have faith on God for everything, provision against hunger, thirst, sickness, even death. That has a parallel in what God did in the Exodus : fed Israel with bread from heaven, the revelation that God could take care of the supplies.

This was important because being blessings to the world requires laying down your life for your friend.

How can you show you have switched from faith in self interest to faith in God?

By cutting off all ties with activities related to self interest. Only then can you pick up your cross, to bless that friend.

Matthew 16:24
24Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

Luke 14:33
33So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

 

[Rita G.]

@justbyfaith & wordkeeper,
You don’t ‘get it’.
It’s not your fault, it’s the way you were taught.
Jesus taught salvation by faith plus works, and his ministry was to JEWS! (covenant) Mat 15:24
Paul was converted by Jesus in Acts 9 for another ministry to bring in gentiles by teaching the they would be saved by faith without works. (apart from covenant)