Paul vs James who is right?

[pescador]

For example.

The gospels teach, the way we judge others, we will be judged.

Does this apply to unbelievers, believers, or both?

James also teaches this, so only unbelievers?

I find if it can be applied and there is good fruit, it's for believers.

The teachings of the Bible apply to all people, whether they're saved or not. Not judging others is a universal precept.

 

[RDKirk]

The teachings of the Bible apply to all people, whether they're saved or not. Not judging others is a universal precept.

I wouldn't quite agree. The precepts of how a Christian should walk in The Way only applies to Christians. The Body of Christ is only the Body of Christ.

Not only are they irrelevant to an unbeliever (because the unbeliever is condemned by his unbelief, regardless how he lives), but Romans tells us that an unbeliever cannot live a Christian life anyway.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The teachings of the Bible apply to all people, whether they're saved or not.

1 Corinthians 5:12 comes to mind.

 

[FredVB]

The teachings of the Bible apply to all people, whether they're saved or not. Not judging others is a universal precept.

I wouldn't quite agree. The precepts of how a Christian should walk in The Way only applies to Christians. The Body of Christ is only the Body of Christ.

Not only are they irrelevant to an unbeliever (because the unbeliever is condemned by his unbelief, regardless how he lives), but Romans tells us that an unbeliever cannot live a Christian life anyway.

1 Corinthians 5:12 comes to mind.

What is sin is the same, for unbelievers and for believers. Unbelievers are not repentant which is needed, that happens with really coming to Christ in faith. They are subject to judgment for sin. The same things are sin for believers, that with repentance they are to turn from such. Commandments from God are showing that. There is godliness to come to that only would happen if it does with coming to Christ in faith, with our response to God, this is not possible among unbelievers. It is just believers who can be expected to and should be coming to love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. If they are growing spiritually they would come to realize to not limit themselves in these things, God does not withhold these with limiting them, as Christ has shown.

Believers actually fall short on occasions, the passage that came to mind is about judgment in that, that believers are approached when sin is realized to have them turning from that where recognized, and it can't apply to unbelievers, who are not repentant and would never be coming to godliness that way. The gospel of Christ being shown is for them to see and hear. Judgment from God is for them when they still won't repent, coming to Christ in faith.

 

[pescador]

I wouldn't quite agree. The precepts of how a Christian should walk in The Way only applies to Christians. The Body of Christ is only the Body of Christ.

Not only are they irrelevant to an unbeliever (because the unbeliever is condemned by his unbelief, regardless how he lives), but Romans tells us that an unbeliever cannot live a Christian life anyway.

You wrote that the precepts of how a Christian should walk in The Way only applies to Christians. So those who aren't Christians can behave in any way that they want? That makes no sense. Paul even writes about this situation in Romans...

Romans 2:14-15, " (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)" NIV

 

[RDKirk]

You wrote that the precepts of how a Christian should walk in The Way only applies to Christians. So those who aren't Christians can behave in any way that they want? That makes no sense. Paul even writes about this situation in Romans...

Romans 2:14-15, " (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)" NIV

Paul is really giving us the "you will know them by their fruits" message from a different direction.

Those people spoken of in Romans 2 are "Christian" for all God's intents and purposes--they still have the law written on their hearts, as Paul says explicitly--even if they were not physically circumcised into the law. Otherwise, they would not "do by nature things required by the law" because that would not be their nature.

Actually, I believe in his own head Paul was speaking specifically of those gentile Christians right there in the Roman congregation. Those gentile Roman Christians were uncircumcised and thus did not "have the law" physically, but had the law written upon their hearts and displayed it by their fruit. I certainly don't think Paul was talking about pagans in general.

There are still those people who do not have the law as their nature.

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. -- Romans 8

If you argue that pagans are also under the requirements of the law, then you are arguing that God requires them to do something that He knows they cannot do.

 

[pescador]

Paul is really giving us the "you will know them by their fruits" message from a different direction.

Those people spoken of in Romans 2 are "Christian" for all God's intents and purposes--they still have the law written on their hearts, as Paul says explicitly--even if they were not physically circumcised into the law. Otherwise, they would not "do by nature things required by the law" because that would not be their nature.

Actually, I believe in his own head Paul was speaking specifically of those gentile Christians right there in the Roman congregation. Those gentile Roman Christians were uncircumcised and thus did not "have the law" physically, but had the law written upon their hearts and displayed it by their fruit. I certainly don't think Paul was talking about pagans in general.

There are still those people who do not have the law as their nature.

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. -- Romans 8

If you argue that pagans are also under the requirements of the law, then you are arguing that God requires them to do something that He knows they cannot do.

The OT law applies to everyone who has not been "born again", regardless of their natural origin.

God requires everyone to obey His OT law, but of course that is impossible for every single person. "This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

 

[RDKirk]

The OT law applies to everyone who has not been "born again", regardless of their natural origin.

God requires everyone to obey His OT law, but of course that is impossible for every single person. "This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Are you saying that God requires everyone to be circumcised? To observe the sabbath? To wear long forelocks?

 

[pescador]

Are you saying that God requires everyone to be circumcised? To observe the sabbath? To wear long forelocks?

I actually considered not replying to this. The answer is no -- obviously. I repeat: There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)

Romans 2:1-12 spells out this principle: "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law."

Is that clear enough?

 

[BobRyan]

What is sin is the same, for unbelievers and for believers.

I agree "to a point"

Sin is transgression of the law - 1 John 3:4
taking God's name in vain is not "holy and righteous" for unbelievers - but "sin" for believers.

However the level of guilt is different according to Christ in Luke 12.

47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.​

And even the question of guilt may be an issue as James 4:17 points out --

" 17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin. "​

 

[RDKirk]

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law."

Is that clear enough?

What that clearly says is that those not under the Mosaic Law (that is, gentiles) will be condemned by a standard other than the Mosaic Law. You claim that gentiles are under the Mosaic Law; that verse clearly says differently from your claim.

 

[pescador]

1 Corinthians 5:12 comes to mind.

This was in response to my post that said that the teachings of the Bible apply to all people, whether they're saved or not.

1 Corinthians 5:12 in my Bible reads "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?"

There is a world of difference between teaching and judging.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

There is a world of difference between teaching and judging.

Not the way the church teaches people to teach. Judging is automatic. The passage selected non-chalantly rebuking the way they live their lives, totally judging.

Making a distinction when there isn't one, is kinda wrong.

 

[pescador]

Not the way the church teaches people to teach. Judging is automatic. The passage selected non-chalantly rebuking the way they live their lives, totally judging.

Making a distinction when there isn't one, is kinda wrong.

I agree that making a distinction when there isn't one, is kinda wrong, so why are you doing just that?

 

[The Liturgist]

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

Both St. Paul and St. James are right, and there is no contradiction between their writings. Most Sola Fide Protestants will agree that faith produces works, so those works are the fruit of a living faith, and in that sense they reconcile Sola Fide with “Faith without works is dead.” Or one can adopt a more nuanced view and accept that faith and works are both aspects of our cooperation with God by which He saves those of us who desire it.

 

[Neogaia777]

Faith, genuine faith, will most certainly produce good choices/actions/decisions/works, etc, and it has to, or must, if it is genuinely true genuinely, etc, but we are also not qualified to judge any other person by their good (or bad) works or actions/choices/decisions or anything else, etc, but only God and God only can do that, and that is where many go or get it wrong, etc...

Look to the plank in your own eye first, etc...

And don't be a hypocrite, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I agree that making a distinction when there isn't one, is kinda wrong, so why are you doing just that?

This is the part where I get officially bored with the conversation, I can't even remember what it was about. Thanks, I'll release the memory completely and take hold of whatever the future holds.

God bless.

 

[Danthemailman]

Both St. Paul and St. James are right, and there is no contradiction between their writings. Most Sola Fide Protestants will agree that faith produces works, so those works are the fruit of a living faith, and in that sense they reconcile Sola Fide with “Faith without works is dead.” Or one can adopt a more nuanced view and accept that faith and works are both aspects of our cooperation with God by which He saves those of us who desire it.

Yes, both Paul and James are right. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) No contradiction. Perfect harmony.

 

[Hawkins]

Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

Both are correct.
In accordance with the New Covenant, men are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. However, how can one tell that his faith is the faith as required by the New Covenant? James said that faith without works is not the faith as required by the Covenant. It says that if you are a person of faith, your faith will be reflected by your works. Once you have the faith as required by the New Covenant, you will act according to what Jesus teaches.

 

[pescador]

Both St. Paul and St. James are right, and there is no contradiction between their writings. Most Sola Fide Protestants will agree that faith produces works, so those works are the fruit of a living faith, and in that sense they reconcile Sola Fide with “Faith without works is dead.” Or one can adopt a more nuanced view and accept that faith and works are both aspects of our cooperation with God by which He saves those of us who desire it.

Great post!