Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 7

[eternally thankful]

OK, You failed at reconciling Paul's words under your faulty premise.

Here's an easier one for you: How do you reconcile your own words?

As I have once again shown you, I have reconciled it, but you cannot see it, for you are looking through the lens of human logic(and faulty logic at that) Just the same as your refusal to understand that through the law we become conscious of sin. According to your logic, if a person stole something, they could only be conscious of sin in regard to not loving as they should, they could not be conscious they sinned because they stole something.

 

[HARK!]

Paul has previously been showing that neither jew or gentile obeyed the law, for they were all under sin(which is breaking the law).

Really?

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

(CLV) Ac 25:8
Paul defending that "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the sanctuary, nor against Caesar did I any sin."

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

 

[HARK!]

According to your logic, if a person stole something, they could only be conscious of sin in regard to not loving as they should, they could not be conscious they sinned because they stole something.

I have no idea how you derived that from my logic.

 

[BobRyan]

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

(CLV) Jn 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and We shall be coming to him and making an abode with him.

(CLV) Jn 14:24
He who is not loving Me, is not keeping My words. And the word which you are hearing is not Mine, but the Father's Who sends Me.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,

Amen

 

[Studyman]

Gal. 3:10
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

You're under the curse because you can't keep the Law.

When you accept the fact that Christ kept the Law for you, this battle over the Law will be over for you.

What you omitting from your mind here is what the Law itself actually says. When a man refuses to humble them self to the God of Abraham, and reject His instruction, this is called sin.

The wages of this action is death. In the Holy Scriptures, God prepared a Temporary Priesthood which provided for the Atonement/Forgiveness of sins, freeing men from this death. This Temporary Priesthood consisted of Sacrificial, ceremonial "Works" that were to be performed exclusively by Levite Priests.

Lev. 4: 18 And he shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar which is before the LORD, that is in the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall pour out all the blood at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

19 And he shall take all his fat from him, and burn it upon the altar.

20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

These are the "Works" of the Law Paul is speaking to. The Mainstream Preachers of that time did not believe Jesus was the Prophesied "Lamb of God". They were still requiring these sacrificial, ceremonial "works" for justification, even after the Lamb was Slain, as they did not believe in the Blood of Christ, which was what these "Works" foreshadowed in the first place.

So then, "After those days" when the Lamb of God has come, if one is still relying on the blood of animals for atonement/justification, they are cursed and are bound to never transgress the Law, because these "works" do not justify sin in the Flesh.

But it's too late because they have all already sinned. Therefore they are cursed, whoever among them who place themselves "under the works of the Law" for atonement/justification given by Moses "Till the Seed should come".

These who Paul is speaking to are not cursed because they can't do what the God of the Bible told them they can do. I don't believe God lied to HIS People, though you imply as much in your post.

Paul is speaking to those who refuse to consider the Promise of this same Christ, to become our High Priest, and who Justifies HIS People with His Own Blood, not the atonement "works of the Law" "ADDED" to God's Laws 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Laws, Statutes, and Commandments.

The text is clear, it's just that we have been influenced by the religious philosophies of men we are warned about so many times.

I hope you might engage in an examination of the Scriptures which pertain to this issue.

It will explain why Jesus said "Don't think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets".

Don't even "THINK IT".

 

[Studyman]

The ten commandments were specifically a covenant with Israel, not the Gentile nations and peoples.

[2Co 3:7-11] 7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.

I don't live by the ministration of death, but rather by the Spirit. The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. The Law Giver has written His law in my heart, as Paul, the apostle to us Gentiles, declared.

Jr

Here is what Paul taught the Gentiles.

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should (ALL) repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

This is one scripture out of the Volumes of Scripture that exists, which expose the popular religious philosophy as false, that Gentiles and Jews are treated differently by the God of the Bible, or His Apostles.

The "ministration of death" Paul is speaking to, was the Levitical Priesthood. This was a Temporary Priesthood, "ADDED" to God's Laws, which provided for the atonement of sins through the death of animals the sinner was to provide to the Levite Priest as a sin offering, who would then perform sacrificial, Ceremonial "Works" that provided for the forgiveness of sins "Till the Seed should come".

After the Seed has come, we no longer need this Priesthood which was to lead us to Christ and HIS Atoning Blood.

But the definition of sin has never changed.

So Paul is saying that if the Levitical Priesthood and it's "works of the Law" of atonement was Glorious, how much more the Blood of the Christ shed once and for all is much more Glorious.

It is still a requirement of the Christ for "ALL" to repent of transgression of God's Commandments, and Turn to Him, and HIS Words which are Spirit and Life.

Paul is not suggesting God's Definition of sin has changed or is done away with. That religious philosophy comes from the imagination of religious men.

 

[HARK!]

The ten commandments were specifically a covenant with Israel,

Along with YHWH's renewed covenant, and Yahshua's commission.

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

 

[Studyman]

The ten commandments were specifically a covenant with Israel, not the Gentile nations and peoples
Jr

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

How is it the Gentiles were seeking and desiring to hear Moses, when you are preaching to the world that Moses wasn't for the Gentiles?

Wasn't it Jesus who said "Salvation is of the Jews"? Are you preaching Jesus doesn't know what HE is talking about?

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Again, If God's Word's to Moses were not for all people, as you preach to the world, then why were the Gentiles and Jews going to the "seat of Moses"? What would Moses tell them to observe and do? And why would they desire to hear him when you are preaching to the world that God's Word to Moses was only for men of a certain DNA?

Is. 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

What is the "root of Jesse"?

No, although very popular in the religions of this land i was born into, your statement "The ten commandments were specifically a covenant with Israel, not the Gentile nations and peoples" can not be supported with Scripture. Actually the Scriptures expose this statement as untrue.

Is. 56: 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Perhaps you should consider the Word's of the Christ Himself. "Man (Jew or Gentile) shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY Word which proceeds from the mouth of God".

Could this be why the Faithful Gentiles were desiring to hear God's Word? Surely a man should consider such a possibility.

 

[BobRyan]

In Genesis 4 God warns Cain that "sin is crouching at your door" -- how did Cain know about the Ex 20 command "do not murder"?

In Genesis 7 - Noah takes the clean animals by 7's and the unclean animals by 2's -- how did Noah know about the Lev 11 definition for those terms?

In 1 John 3:4 "sin is transgression of the Law" - but in Genesis 6 all mankind had corrupted its way in sin and rebellion and was then wiped off the face of the Earth. mankind held responsible for sin.

Rom 4 "where there is no law - there is no sin".

There was law.

 

[Fervent]

This debate is so strange to me...those who speak of "faith alone" are quick to deny charges of antinomianism through an almost optional work as if the keeping of God's statutes is a chore and those who speak of keeping the law almost always focus primarily ceremonial things and are susceptible to charges laid out by Christ against the white washed tombs. Love the Lord, your God. If you think you can love God without obedience to His words, follow your conscience. If you think God will be impressed by your performance in keeping the law, perhaps you have strayed. Either case, the question is are we arguing and disputing out of love for God and those we're speaking with or to demonstrate our intelligence and doctrinal soundness?

 

[BobRyan]

This debate is so strange to me...those who speak of "faith alone" are quick to deny charges of antinomianism through an almost optional work as if the keeping of God's statutes is a chore and those who speak of keeping the law almost always focus primarily ceremonial things

Sabbath was kept in Eden in the unfallen stated of man- before sin "made for mankind not mankind made for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 -- see Gen 2:1-3 (and Ex 20:11). What is more that same 7th day Sabbath is to be kept for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth - by all mankind Isaiah 66:23.

And even the majority of Sunday-keeping scholars admit that the Sabbath commandment is included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12.

As for the "faith alone" group. Certainly it is try that "saved by grace through faith and that not of works" Eph 2:8-10 is the right Bible approved doctrine... yet as Christ said "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter... but rather he who DOES" Matt 7. and Paul says it in Rom 2:13-16 this way "it is not the hearers of the LAW that are just before God - but the doers of the Law WILL be justified ... on the day when according to my gospel God will judge".

And as we know - those who object to the Sabbath as if obeying God's commandments would "be a bad thing" -- always seem to reject that idea - when the commandment "do not take God's name in vain" comes up. Suddenly they can then see how obedience to God's Law is "a good thing".

 

[Fervent]

Sabbath was kept in Eden in the unfallen stated of man- before sin "made for mankind not mankind made for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 -- see Gen 2:1-3 (and Ex 20:11). What is more that same 7th day Sabbath is to be kept for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth - by all mankind Isaiah 66:23.

And even the majority of Sunday-keeping scholars admit that the Sabbath commandment is included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12.

As for the "faith alone" group. Certainly it is try that "saved by grace through faith and that not of works" Eph 2:8-10 is the right Bible approved doctrine... yet as Christ said "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter... but rather he who DOES" Matt 7. and Paul says it in Rom 2:13-16 this way "it is not the hearers of the LAW that are just before God - but the doers of the Law WILL be justified ... on the day when according to my gospel God will judge".

And as we know - those who object to the Sabbath as if obeying God's commandments would "be a bad thing" -- always seem to reject that idea - when the commandment "do not take God's name in vain" comes up. Suddenly they can then see how obedience to God's Law is "a good thing".

The issue is, if you're keeping the Sabbath in the manner of the pharisees through human made rules than you are not, in fact, keeping the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. It is a joy to keep as God laid out, but most of the observance of those who insist on it are insistence on human rules for it rather than the rest day that God instituted. The Sabbath law, as kept by the Israelites, was a portion of the Sinai covenant to distinguish them from the people around them just as the dietary laws and the mark of circumcision were. Paul stated let no man despise you with regard to the keeping of Sabbaths and James said that we are not to become judges with evil intentions making distinctions among one another. Yet here you stand despising brothers for Sabbaths and making yourself a judge of the law rather than a doer of the law.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The issue is, if you're keeping the Sabbath in the manner of the pharisees through human made rules than you are not, in fact, keeping the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. It is a joy to keep as God laid out, but most of the observance of those who insist on it are insistence on human rules for it rather than the rest day that God instituted. The Sabbath law, as kept by the Israelites, was a portion of the Sinai covenant to distinguish them from the people around them just as the dietary laws and the mark of circumcision were. Paul stated let no man despise you with regard to the keeping of Sabbaths and James said that we are not to become judges with evil intentions making distinctions among one another. Yet here you stand despising brothers for Sabbaths and making yourself a judge of the law rather than a doer of the law.

No one is judging here. Many have no understanding of the Sabbath or even know that Saturday is the Sabbath. Orpah said on National TV she had no idea that the Sabbath was Saturday until her guest informed her. Our only desire is to point out the scriptures so people know the Truth. God bless

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It's only the letterists who ignore the indwelling Lord who writes His law within our hearts, and to follow that over the letter, for the letter "killeth".

[2 Cor. 3:6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Rather than worry about witches like Oprah and her understanding about things, I will stick to what the apostle to us Gentiles said, seeing it all through the lens the Lord inspired him to write unto us, and most of all, follow the leading of the Spirit.

Jr

You obviously misunderstood my post. I don't worry about Oprah at all, just emphasizing my point that most do not know Saturday is God's chosen Holy day. Genesis 2:3 Exodus 20:8-11

The commandments of God should be kept both literal and in spirit, God wrote it in our minds and heart. God bless

 

[andrew1smith]

The same God that inspired these texts (hint - read the post not just a few words of it)

Does Paul call the command to "Love God with all your heart " Deut 6:5 , the ministration of death"?
Does Paul call the 5th commandment which he says is "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 -- "the ministration of death"?
Does Paul call the command to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:19 - the ministration of death?
Does Paul call the command to not take God's name in vain Ex 20:7 - the ministration of death?

yes. As we see in Rom 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.

Those who are under the "obey and live" agreement/contract of the Old Covenant

Gal 3: 10 For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things written in the book of the Law, to do them.” 11 Now, that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “the righteous one will live by faith.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “The person who performs them will live by them.”

That is the "Obey and live" contract/agreement of the Old Covenant under which all mankind is lost - and because of this all mankind needs God's gospel solution to the problem.

=========================================================
But Paul in Heb 8:6-12 reminds us that - that - that same law is "written on the heart" under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34

The one that includes this feature "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 in the still valid unit of ten -- is the 5th commandment.

The Gospel solution is not to delete God's LAW commanding us to
"Love God with all your heart " Deut 6:5
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:19
not take God's name in vain Ex 20:7
and reminding us that the 5th commandment which he says is "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 --

So then Rom 3 concludes with this fact about the New Covenant - the Gospel Solution: "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

That is the very same context for Law as Rom 3:19-20 where we find that the law condemns all mankind as being sinners in need of salvation. Yes "that law" - is what is established under the Gospel of the New Covenant writing the Law on heart and mind.
=====

"So, given that Paul stated that ALL scripture is by inspiration from God, read those texts like the scriptures you see there are part of the "all scripture" of 2 Tim 3:16 and not the details highlighted.



On the contrary - I affirm it... if you take the time to read the post

There's a lot to like about your rationale in the following:
''That is the "Obey and live" contract/agreement of the Old Covenant under which all mankind is lost - and because of this all mankind needs God's gospel solution to the problem.''
''But Paul in Heb 8:6-12 reminds us that - that - that same law is "written on the heart" under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34''

Lets concentrate on the problem that arises when churches state:
You must obey the Ten Commandments''

What does the above in reality mean?

Well must means must doesn't it, there is no wriggle room there. In reality such churches are telling you, you may attain to Heaven if you obey the Ten Commandments. If you don't obey them you are doomed. You can only be righteous in God's sight therefore if you obey them. For you can only attain to Heaven if you have righteousness in God's sight as I am sure you would agree.
Therefore, to state ''you must obey the Ten Commandments'', is, in reality, to place people back under the law and live contract which as you say ,means all are lost.
You have righteousness of obeying the law the bible states is the ministration of death and condemnation, the letter that kills. That's the reality.
But, at the same time the above is true, it is also true that Christians cannot go around murdering, committing adultery, taking the Lords name in vain as much as they like, on this I am sure we would both agree.
Therefore, how do you stop a licence to sin, without placing believers back under the obey and live message under which, as you say all are lost, by telling them they must obey the law/the ten commandments?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Very good post. I like it!

I might add this as well as long as it might find you.

 

[BobRyan]

The same God that inspired these texts (hint - read the post not just a few words of it)

Does Paul call the command to "Love God with all your heart " Deut 6:5 , the ministration of death"?
Does Paul call the 5th commandment which he says is "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 -- "the ministration of death"?
Does Paul call the command to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:19 - the ministration of death?
Does Paul call the command to not take God's name in vain Ex 20:7 - the ministration of death?

yes. As we see in Rom 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.

Those who are under the "obey and live" agreement/contract of the Old Covenant

Gal 3: 10 For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things written in the book of the Law, to do them.” 11 Now, that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “the righteous one will live by faith.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “The person who performs them will live by them.”

That is the "Obey and live" contract/agreement of the Old Covenant under which all mankind is lost - and because of this all mankind needs God's gospel solution to the problem.

=============================================
But Paul in Heb 8:6-12 reminds us that - that - that same law is "written on the heart" under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34

The one that includes this feature "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 in the still valid unit of ten -- is the 5th commandment.

The Gospel solution is not to delete God's LAW commanding us to
"Love God with all your heart " Deut 6:5
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:19
not take God's name in vain Ex 20:7
and reminding us that the 5th commandment which he says is "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 --

So then Rom 3 concludes with this fact about the New Covenant - the Gospel Solution: "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

That is the very same context for Law as Rom 3:19-20 where we find that the law condemns all mankind as being sinners in need of salvation. Yes "that law" - is what is established under the Gospel of the New Covenant writing the Law on heart and mind.
=====

"So, given that Paul stated that ALL scripture is by inspiration from God, read those texts like the scriptures you see there are part of the "all scripture" of 2 Tim 3:16 and not the details highlighted.

just stating the obvious that all the Sabbath keeping and the pro-sunday keeping groups below could agree on.

But "someone" might say to me "yes but if a reader wanted to - they could just ignore all those texts you just quoted and reply as if the only Christians that quote such texts are those who must have a doctrinal flaw".

Certainly someone could respond that way.

=============================
I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm all TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

====================================

There's a lot to like about your rationale in the following:
''That is the "Obey and live" contract/agreement of the Old Covenant under which all mankind is lost - and because of this all mankind needs God's gospel solution to the problem.''

As we see in Romans 3:19-20 and Gal 3:10
10 "For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things written in the book of the Law, to do them.”

And it is more than just "my rationale" in that post - there is also the "details in the texts" quoted/referenced.

''But Paul in Heb 8:6-12 reminds us that - that - that same law is "written on the heart" under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34''

Also true - I did point to that. Same command to "not take God's name in vain" -- different covenant (for example).

Lets concentrate on the problem that arises when churches state:
You must obey the Ten Commandments''

Sure ... If they do so in the form "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

They are fine.

If they do so in the form :
Matt 19 "if you want to enter into eternal life - KEEP the Commandments" (in the words of Christ) - they are fine

What does the above in reality mean?

The texts being quoted show the meaning.

Well must means must doesn't it,

I believe you are referring to your own statement.

However Christ is pretty adamant in His Matt 19 statement above -- I will admit that.

there is no wriggle room there. In reality such churches are telling you, you may attain to Heaven if you obey the Ten Commandments. If you don't obey them you are doomed.

In Romans 8:4-11 the saints live in obedience but of the lost Paul says "they do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they"

You can only be righteous in God's sight therefore if you obey them.

Christ's Words "NOT everyone who SAYS 'LORD LORD' will enter the kingdom of heaven - but rather he who DOES..." Matt 7

For you can only attain to Heaven if you have righteousness in God's sight as I am sure you would agree.

"it is NOT the hearers of the law that are just before God - but the DOERS of the LAW WILL be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge" Rom 2:13-16

"I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified from it" 1 Cor 9

1 Cor 6 "It is ALREADY a failure for you.. Be NOT Deceived .. neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."

1 John 2:1 "These things I write to you that you SIN NOT and if anyone does sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous".... "SIN IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4

1 John 2:4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever follows His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says that he remains in Him ought, himself also, walk just as He walked.

Romans 2:4-16 makes it crystal clear humanity is judged according to what they do. And of course "all have sinned" Rom 3:23 - yet some (the FEW of Matt 7) will have accepted the Gospel and will be "shown" to BE the good tree of Matt 7 producing good fruit.

 

[andrew1smith]

just stating the obvious that all the Sabbath keeping and the pro-sunday keeping groups below could agree on.

=============================
I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm all TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.



As we see in Romans 3:19-20 and Gal 3:10
10 "For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things written in the book of the Law, to do them.”




Also true. Same command to "not take God's name in vain" -- different covenant (for example).



Sure ... in the form "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Matt 19 "if you want to enter into eternal life - KEEP the Commandments" (in the words of Christ)



Christ is pretty adamant in His statement above -- I will admit that.




In Romans 8:4-11 the saints live in obedience but of the lost Paul says "they do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they"



"I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified from it" 1 Cor 9

1 Cor 6 "Be NOT Deceived .. neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."

1 John 2:1 "These things I write to you that you SIN NOT and if anyone does sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous".... "SIN IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4

1 John 2:4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever follows His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says that he remains in Him ought, himself also, walk just as He walked.

But you haven't addressed the main point have you. If believers are told, as they are in some churches ''you must obey the ten commandments'' that places them under the contract of obey and live, something you believe condemns everyone. Believers can then only be righteous before God if they obey the law the bible terms the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. I don't see how you can square that with your previous comment of ''obey and live''

 

[andrew1smith]

I am afraid those who can only see the letter of what is written will always end up in contradiction of it. If you tell people ‘’you must obey the ten commandments’’ you are undoubtedly telling them they must be under the ‘’obey and live’’ contract. They are righteous before God if they obey the law, they cannot be righteous before God if they do not obey it. And so you have a contradiction you cannot unravel. On the one hand you state the contract of obey and live condemns everyone, while stating in effect all Christians are under that contract.

 

[BobRyan]

But, at the same time the above is true, it is also true that Christians cannot go around murdering, committing adultery, taking the Lords name in vain as much as they like, on this I am sure we would both agree.

as Christ stated "by their fruits you shall know them" Matt 7.

Therefore, how do you stop a licence to sin, without placing believers back under the obey and live message under which, as you say all are lost, by telling them they must obey the law/the ten commandments?

The Law of God did not change on the cross into "you kinda must obey the laws off the kingdom.. a bit more than you might has as a rebel devoted to treason against God's government" - as John points out in 1 John 3.

So John says "Sin NOT" is the rule ... in 1 John 2:1 but he allows in that same verse for those who choose failure and yet are determined to fight the good fight in the Spirit.

wayyyy stronger than the language you have used... is this

1 John 3
3 And everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

So now - without the "italicized inserts" we have this --

4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is transgression of the LAW. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who remains in Him sins ; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin , because he has been born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother and sister.

 

[BobRyan]

But you haven't addressed the main point have you. If believers are told, as they are in some churches ''you must obey the ten commandments''

First of all I point out "as they are told in some churches" -- that dare to quote the texts you are qouting... (such as those in 1 John 3, and 1 John 2, and Romans 2, and Matt 2, and 1 Cor 6)...

that places them under the contract of obey and live,

Does it???

as I stated before 1 john 2:1 does allow for forgiveness as does 1 Cor 6... yet it condemns "all sin" not just "the sin that most Christians would insist must stop" - such as ones you listed.

We would not say to the murderer " I don't want to say to you - stop murdering or even ... you MUST stop murdering... because you will think that is Old Covenant".

Once we get that clearly in view - the rest is easy. (so Easy that BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic admit to it as noted here)

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
"saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Where the "first commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of TEN - is the 5th commandment according to Paul - Eph 6:1-2

Ten commandments given to mankind in Eden, included in the moral law of God under the New Covenant written on the heart - to this very day.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm ALL TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

 

[BobRyan]

I am afraid those who can only see the letter of what is written will always end up in contradiction of it. If you tell people ‘’you must obey the ten commandments’’ you are undoubtedly telling them they must be under the ‘’obey and live’’ contract. .

As long as you only quote yourself you will not see the point being made in the posts.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, Saturday is the traditional seventh day, as shown in our modern calendars, which may or may not align with the actual seventh day of the creation week.

According to Christ it is the same. Luke 4:16 His custom to keep the Sabbath

According to the Word of God .. it is the same. "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath" - Exodus 16.

According to atheists it is the same as the Saturday 7th day kept by Christ in the NT.

This is not the hard part.

 

[BobRyan]

What's wonderful is that we're not bound to that observance.

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
"saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Where the "first commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of TEN - is the 5th commandment according to Paul - Eph 6:1-2

Ten commandments given to mankind in Eden, included in the moral law of God under the New Covenant written on the heart - to this very day.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm ALL TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

 

[andrew1smith]

as Christ stated "by their fruits you shall know them" Matt 7.



The Law of God did not change on the cross into "you kinda must obey the laws off the kingdom.. a bit more than you might has as a rebel devoted to treason against God's government" - as John points out in 1 John 3.

So John says "Sin NOT" is the rule ... in 1 John 2:1 but he allows in that same verse for those who choose failure and yet are determined to fight the good fight in the Spirit.

wayyyy stronger than the language you have used... is this

1 John 3
3 And everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

So now - without the "italicized inserts" we have this --

4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is transgression of the LAW. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who remains in Him sins ; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin , because he has been born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother and sister.

Im not suprised you appear unable to address the simple point made. If you tell someone they must obey the ten commandments, you are telling them they obey those commands in order to attain to eternal life/obey a

 

[BobRyan]

the pharasees were planning to attack Jesus and His disciples for working to harvest grain for them to feed themselves. Working.

It is true that the false accusation against Christ made by his enemies was of that form. I choose not to join them in that false accusation.

Jesus said "which of you convicts Me of sin"? John 8:46 when put on trial.
The NT says "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
And it also says Jesus had not sinned 2 Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin.

1 John 2:1 Jesus' command to us is "sin not" .

James 2- he who breaks one of the TEN - breaks them all ... even by NT standards.

Even the majority of all Christian scholarship admit to this obvious bible doctrine
as pointed out here

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
"saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Where the "first commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of TEN - is the 5th commandment according to Paul - Eph 6:1-2

Ten commandments given to mankind in Eden, included in the moral law of God under the New Covenant written on the heart - to this very day.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm ALL TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

 

[andrew1smith]

First of all I point out "as they are told in some churches" -- that dare to quote the texts you are qouting... (such as those in 1 John 3, and 1 John 2, and Romans 2, and Matt 2, and 1 Cor 6)...



Does it???

as I stated before 1 john 2:1 does allow for forgiveness as does 1 Cor 6... yet it condemns "all sin" not just "the sin that most Christians would insist must stop" - such as ones you listed.

We would not say to the murderer " I don't want to say to you - stop murdering or even ... you MUST stop murdering... because you will think that is Old Covenant".

Once we get that clearly in view - the rest is easy.

Im not surprised you appear unable to address the simple point made. If you tell someone they must obey the ten commandments, you are telling them they must obey those commands in order to attain to eternal life/obey and live. Yet at the same time you believe that condemns all mankind.

 

[andrew1smith]

First of all I point out "as they are told in some churches" -- that dare to quote the texts you are qouting... (such as those in 1 John 3, and 1 John 2, and Romans 2, and Matt 2, and 1 Cor 6)...



Does it???

as I stated before 1 john 2:1 does allow for forgiveness as does 1 Cor 6... yet it condemns "all sin" not just "the sin that most Christians would insist must stop" - such as ones you listed.

We would not say to the murderer " I don't want to say to you - stop murdering or even ... you MUST stop murdering... because you will think that is Old Covenant".

Once we get that clearly in view - the rest is easy.

The old covenant allowed for forgiveness, but you still state the contract of obey and live condemns.
BTW
Do you obey the ten commandments?

 

[BobRyan]

Im not suprised you appear unable to address the simple point made.

I am not surprised you refuse to quote a single text posted as response.

You only quote your own words.

If you tell someone they must obey ..

When I quote scripture do you suppose that is "me speaking" instead of the WORD of God ?? Is that why you refuse to quote texts that are refuting your suggestions??

 

[andrew1smith]

As long as you only quote yourself you will not see the point being made in the posts.

All I see is evasion I am afraid

 

[andrew1smith]

I am not surprised you refuse to quote a single text posted as response.

You only quote your own words.



When I quote scripture do you suppose that is "me speaking" instead of the WORD of God ?? Is that why you refuse to quote texts that are refuting your suggestions??

I don't need to quote scripture, I am showing your inconsistency of belief, I dont need to quote scripture to do that

 

[BobRyan]

All I see is evasion I am afraid

I point "to the detail" that only quote yourself - and are not allowing yourself to quote and respond to the texts posted...

did you think we "just would not notice"???


Even the majority of all Christian scholarship admit to this obvious bible doctrine
as pointed out here

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
"saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Where the "first commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of TEN - is the 5th commandment according to Paul - Eph 6:1-2

Ten commandments given to mankind in Eden, included in the moral law of God under the New Covenant written on the heart - to this very day.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm ALL TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

I don't need to quote scripture

Indeed you can ignore all that you wish.

 

[andrew1smith]

I point "to the detail" that only quote yourself - and are not allowing yourself to quote and respond to the texts posted...

did you think we "just would not notice"???


Even the majority of all Christian scholarship admit to this obvious bible doctrine
as pointed out here

Once again, you say the contract of obey and live condemns, but you also say you must obey the ten commandments. In other words, obey and live, for you obviously tie it to attaining to heaven