Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 7

[SabbathBlessings]

What you imagine and what the bible states are two very different things:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. Rom3:20
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. Rom3:21&22
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth Rom10:4
We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. Gal2:15&16
not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith Phil3:9
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” Rom1:17

So what you’re saying is God sees us as righteous when we sin?

 

[andrew1smith]

So what you’re saying is God sees us as righteous when we sin?

If we have righteousness apart from obeying the law we have righteousness apart from committing sin, that is a biblical fact because sin is the transgression of the law. Its not what I am saying it is what the bible states multiple times.
But tell me, as you do not obey the letter of the ten commandments, do you believe you have no righteousness before God?

 

[fhansen]

If we have righteousness apart from obeying the law we have righteousness apart from committing sin, that is a biblical fact because sin is the transgression of the law. Its not what I am saying it is what the bible states multiple times.
But tell me, as you do not obey the letter of the ten commandments, do you believe you have no righteousness before God?

We don’t have righteousness apart from obeying the law. We have righteousness when we obey the law, especially as summed up by the Greatest commandments, whether or not we’ve ever heard the law (Rom 2:13). Otherwise we should consider Is 5:20.

To hear the law and attempt to obey it is to be under the law. To obey and fulfill the law by the Spirit is to be under grace.

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

 

[andrew1smith]

We don’t have righteousness apart from obeying the law.

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
Rom3:20-22

 

[andrew1smith]

So what you’re saying is God sees us as righteous when we sin?

I could not be as some are on these websites. I could not kid myself I obeyed the ten commandments so as to be justified/righteous before God. I knew in my heart I did not obey them, mainly on the inside. My Christian experience went beyond that. For a while I gave up with God, as I was a slave to breaking His laws.

When He brought me back I earnestly wanted to follow after Jesus, but what of the sin? There was a particular sin I had been a slave to for six years, and it was breaking the ten commandments. I didn’t want this sin, for I had been born again, but God opened my eyes to the fact my righteousness before Him was solely Christ dying for my sins, not my obeying the law/being good enough. For three days I was committing sin by breaking the Ten Commandments. It was so hard to believe I was still righteous before God, it was so new to me. I had to fight every rational thought I had to cling to a righteousness of faith in Christ. Logic and feelings had to be abandoned. A voice in my head relentlessly told me I could not be saved/righteous before God sinning as I was, I was just a hypocrite. That voice sounded so right, but God kept me clinging to faith in his son for my righteousness. On the fourth day, this sin I had been a slave to for six years stopped. When I believed I was righteous before God by obeying the law/not co mitting sin, the sin only got worse.

Paul wrote:

For sin shall n o longer be your master you are not under law(righteousness of obeying the law) but under grace(righteousnhess of faith in Christ) Rom6:14


I wish you could discard your rational mind and thinking here and cling to faith in Christ as your sole righteousness. You cannot escape the natural thinking on your own though, only the Holy Spirit can enable you if you are willing, though I fear you are not.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If we have righteousness apart from obeying the law we have righteousness apart from committing sin, that is a biblical fact because sin is the transgression of the law. Its not what I am saying it is what the bible states multiple times.
But tell me, as you do not obey the letter of the ten commandments, do you believe you have no righteousness before God?

You don’t know me so how would you know what I obey or don’t obey?

I’m sorry if you think God sees us as righteous when we sin and uprighteous we don’t I think you have it backwards. When we sin it hurts God and He died to save us from transgression, but after we ask Him for forgiveness, He says go sin no more, not go and keep sinning. John 8:11. God wants us to learn from our mistakes and not keep sinning. That doesn’t mean when we slip He wont forgive us again, but to knowingly sin because you think you will be forgiven without trying to keep Gods commandments not something I would want to risk.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I don't have to know you. Paul when writing to born again christians stated concerning the ten commandments-they are the letter that kills, the ministry of death condemnation(2cor3:6-9) If you can kid yourself you obey the letter of that law, I would have to wonder why, as the law God desires us to follow is written in our minds and placed on our hearts.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law/not committing sin, rather through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

You are resisting the scriptures, not primarily me.

BTW
You do know that in order to obey the ten commandments you must obey the law relating to the inner person, the law only you and God need know you break?
Remember the wording of those commands:
Thou shalt NOT
They do not say it is sometimes excusable to break them do they. Perfectly obey them or stand guilty before them

You assume a lot, not sure how this got to be about me personally and again you do not know me and I never said anything about only keeping the letter of Gods law.

 

[andrew1smith]

You assume a lot, not sure how this got to be about me personally and again you do not know me and I never said anything about only keeping the letter of Gods law.

You believe you are righteous if you obey the ten commandments don't you. As I said, I do not have to know you. Paul, when writing to born again christians told them the TC were the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. They are that way if you believe you have righteousness of obeying them

 

[andrew1smith]

You assume a lot, not sure how this got to be about me personally and again you do not know me and I never said anything about only keeping the letter of Gods law.

I will give you another testimony, then I must leave this site again, no good for my spiritual health

A few years ago I met a sda woman on the internet, we got chatting and then met a few times. She was in earnest the TC must be obeyed. I put aside the different day we went to church and we got married. I wanted to be inclusive not exclusive. She used to turn up for church each Saturday immaculately dressed with her bible under her arm. And if the minister said anything she agreed with she gave a hearty AMEN. I met people like her in the church of my youth, and felt so guilty I was not as spiritual as they appeared to be.

Anyways, I hadn’t been married to the woman for long before I was shocked to hear her and a friend laughing hysterically as they took the Lords name in vain, apparently unaware they were breaking the TC by doing so. And I could tell she often lied to me by conflicting statements she made. I also found out, her previous partner had left her due to her unfaithfulness to him multiple times. I asked her how she could do that, it was breaking the TC. Her response was, and I quote: ‘’All sin is equal and no one is perfect.’’

Im sure you won’t accept this, but God pulled me out of the marriage, it was too hard to see such hypocrisy, knowing how much hurt it can cause the gullible. It resulted in a court case where she continually lied.

You may say that is an extreme case, but I have to be honest with you, the most flagrant sinning I have ever seen in churches was at an sda church. It is always the same with those who insist you must obey the TC if you want to attain to Heaven. It results in a hardened heart and preaching a hypocritical message, one you do not even try to live up to in your own life:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom7:6


You either follow after the Holy Spirit or the written code according to Paul, only one way leads to true spiritual enlightenment

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You believe you are righteous if you obey the ten commandments don't you. As I said, I do not have to know you. Paul, when writing to born again christians told them the TC were the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. They are that way if you believe you have righteousness of obeying them

As I said you assume a lot of things.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I will give you another testimony, then I must leave this site again, no good for my spiritual health

A few years ago I met a sda woman on the internet, we got chatting and then met a few times. She was in earnest the TC must be obeyed. I put aside the different day we went to church and we got married. I wanted to be inclusive not exclusive. She used to turn up for church each Saturday immaculately dressed with her bible under her arm. And if the minister said anything she agreed with she gave a hearty AMEN. I met people like her in the church of my youth, and felt so guilty I was not as spiritual as they appeared to be.

Anyways, I hadn’t been married to the woman for long before I was shocked to hear her and a friend laughing hysterically as they took the Lords name in vain, apparently unaware they were breaking the TC by doing so. And I could tell she often lied to me by conflicting statements she made. I also found out, her previous partner had left her due to her unfaithfulness to him multiple times. I asked her how she could do that, it was breaking the TC. Her response was, and I quote: ‘’All sin is equal and no one is perfect.’’

Im sure you won’t accept this, but God pulled me out of the marriage, it was too hard to see such hypocrisy, knowing how much hurt it can cause the gullible. It resulted in a court case where she continually lied.

You may say that is an extreme case, but I have to be honest with you, the most flagrant sinning I have ever seen in churches was at an sda church. It is always the same with those who insist you must obey the TC if you want to attain to Heaven. It results in a hardened heart and preaching a hypocritical message, one you do not even try to live up to in your own life:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom7:6


You either follow after the Holy Spirit or the written code according to Paul, only one way leads to true spiritual enlightenment

While what you’re describing sounds awful, we should obey God and make him first not because of a spouse or anyone else. It’s about our own personal walk with God. I have been around a few SDA’s in my life and what you’re describing is not anyone I know. God bless.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Don't you know the scriptures? Of course we read and study them, but what you're missing in requests for lists, you continue to overlook the power of the Spirit within:

[Jer 31:34] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

[Heb 8:11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

What don't you understand in what is written? Of course we study the scriptures, and we understand what is written when it says that the law of Moses was a covenant established with the Jews. That's precisely what's written, and you seem to be questioning that. We can learn from what was given to them as a covenant with them, for in the law are a listing of God's moral absolutes. However, your continued inquiries point to the fact that you still don't get it.

Did you not read Matt. 5, where the Lord Himself listed about six or seven of the OT laws, and then turned right around and said, "...BUT I SAY..."? There is so much more to what the Lord writes into our hearts, which is superior to the letter that kills. Why do you think the faithful Jews were held in Abraham's Bosom beneath the earth in Sheol until Jesus led them all free into paradise after He siad, "It is finished"? The "letter that killeth" was not sufficient either for salvation nor righteousness at the level of the Blood of Jesus and His infilling Spirit. The LIFE is in the Blood AND in the Spirit. The Spirit is so much more than words, just like the Book of Revelation is so much more than merely God's wrath poured out upon Jews and the unbelieving world. The level of evangelism in the Tribulation will be VASTLY more than has ever been known on this earth. The Spirit is who reveals that, just like that same Spirit writes His law in our hearts, which is more than mere words for those who live by the Spirit.

Are YOU living by the Spirit? If so, then the Spirit can and will answer your questions in ways I cannot through mere words on screen, but you will need to ASK the Spirit. He is faithful at a level far beyond any book others may beat you over the head with.



I told you that they are laws beyond the letter. "...BUT I SAY..." Nothing I can say will ever enlighten your heart and mind as does the Spirit. Ask the Spirit of the Lord. Seek out the Lord in prayer and He will give to you far more than I could. I have quoted the scriptures to you, and yet your understanding remains unfruitful. Will you not ask of the Lord for an understanding of what I have only begun to reveal to you? Is that too great an effort? Do you not have faith that the Lord will answer you? This isn't about me, this is about the Lord, and about you. I'm not looking for a following. I don't want people tithing to support any religious career of mine. I point ONLY to the Lord, not a book, not a preacher, not a dead building that will perish with this world, but to the Living God over all creation.

I know for a fact that you will find the answers if only you will ask the right One. I can't write His law in your heart. When you have those laws (teachings) in your heart, these questions will become of no consequence to you.

Jr

Here is the first covenant, its not the law of Moses, it's the law of God. "He" is not Moses "He" is God. Spoken and written by God.

Deuteronomy 4:13
So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. Exodus 20

The law of God was in the ark of the most holy of holy. The law of Moses was outside the ark. God did not write with His own finger the law of Moses. Do you see the differences? The scripture above is abundantly clear in my opinion.

What you seem to focus on is just the spirit of the law. So does that mean its okay to murder? The second covenant is about both the letter and the spirit. The letter kills, as you can see from answers on this forum, the mocking of keeping the letter of the law. That's why God created the second covenant of the same laws (note God did not state in the second covenant His laws changed, same 10 from the first covenant) just magnified to be kept both heart and mind. The law kills if only kept literal, but because we love God we will keep the letter and spirit of the law because of our love and He asked, not because it is only a requirement.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

You also quote from Jeremiah the importance of knowing God. How do we know Him according to scriptures?

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
The scriptures says walk just as Jesus and Jesus also kept the law of God:

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love

Apparently some of us are able to keep His commandments as instructed because it is indicated as such in the scriptures:

Revelations 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And than there is this promise:

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

God bless

 

[mmksparbud]

God never broke the covenant with Israel---Israel broke it. A new Israel has been formed by God--with all who call themselves Christians. As stated by post #144. And the covenant continues with His law being written in the heart---it is still His Law. It is now written in the heart---break it and you break your own heart! We can not live in Christ with a broken heart. To live without Christ is death. To live with Christ is life eternal. He is the law, He is life eternal, and abundant, He is love, and the law is all about love---love for God (the 1st 4 Commandments) and love for man, (the last 6 commandments)

 

[BobRyan]

It is easy if you understand which covenant is in existence at the time

Jer 31:31-34 - - the New Covenant
Gal 3:8 - the Gospel preached to Abraham

 

[BobRyan]

Not true. Jer 31:31-34 is the New Covenant stated plainly and also quoted in Heb 8:6-12 unchanged. It says that the Law known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on the heart under the new covenant. Which included the TEN as part of that moral law of God.

And as pointed out repeatedly so far - one does not have to be a Sabbath keeping Christian to notice

Hmm. Let's examine that context in Jeremiah:

And in Heb 8:6-12... where we find that Jer 31:31-34 is quoted "verbatim" - unchanged from OT to NT -- (as has been repeatedly pointed out)

[Jer 31:31-36] 31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [I'm not a member of either, and I doubt you are either.]

And it is the same in Heb 8:6-12... not change at all.

Have you read Romans 2 ???
I have.

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

Hint: that is why that New Covenant is unchanged from OT to NT - as Hebrews 8 reminds us.

Bible details matter.

 

[BobRyan]

Let's quote the CONTEXT, shall we?

[Deu 4:1-14 KJV] 1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you [Israel],
Jr

As you already pointed out - in the NT - the New Covenant is made exclusively with Israel alone Heb 10, and Heb 8:6-12... just as we see in the OT - Jer 31:31-34

How is this helping your argument?

Mine includes Romans 2 at that point and John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD" that He gave... even before the cross.

Rom 2
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.