Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 7

[HARK!]

Continued from: Romans Chapter 6

Romans 7 (CLV)
1 Or are you ignorant, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know law),

Paul is after all a lawyer.
When a lawyer is speaking legalese; a layman might think that he knows what a lawyer is telling him in plain English; but if he looks up the terms in a Black's Law dictionary; he might find that the Lawyer meant something very much different. In the last chapter we found that Paul uses the word "law" to define many aspects of different types of law which conflict with each other.

When Paul speaks of "the law;" which law is he talking about, the law we are not under, the law which we are to sustain, the law which is written on our hearts, the law Messiah frees us from, or something else?

that the law is lording it over a man for as much time as he is living?

The Law of Sin and Death

2 For a woman in wedlock is bound to a living man by law. Yet if the man should be dying, she is exempt from the law of the man." 3 Consequently, then, while the man is living, she will be styled an adulteress if she should be becoming another man's, yet, if the man should be dying, she is free from the law, being no adulteress on becoming another man's."

Free from the Law of Sin and Death. She is no longer the slave of Satan. She can then remarry into a covenant of life.

The Law of Life

(CLV) Ro 8:2
for the spirit's law of life in Christ Yahshua frees you from the law of sin and death.

Yahshua follows YHWH's law, the Torah. Yahshua call us to follow him in Torah.

4 So that, my brethren, you also were put to death to the law

The Law of Sin and Death

through the body of Christ, for you to become Another's, Who is roused from among the dead,

The Law of Life

that we should be bearing fruit to God."

Obedience to the Torah is the fruit of faith.

5 For, when we were in the flesh, the passions of sins, which were through the law, operated in our members to be bearing fruit to Death."

The Law of Sin and Death

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

Trangression of the law (Torah).

6 Yet now we were exempted from the law, dying in that in which we were retained,

The law of Sin and Death

so that it is for us to be slaving in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter."

The Law of Faith

(CLV) Ro 3:27
Where, then, is boasting? It is debarred! Through what law? Of works? Not! But through faith's law.

7 What, then, shall we declare? That the law is sin? May it not be coming to that! But sin I knew not except through law.

Torah

For besides, I had not been aware of coveting except the law said, "You shall not be coveting." 8 Now Sin, getting an incentive through the precept, produces in me all manner of coveting. For apart from law Sin is dead."

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

Trangression of the law (Torah).

9 Now I lived, apart from law, once, yet at the coming of the precept Sin revives. Yet I died, 10 and it was found that, to me, the precept for life, this is for death." 11 For Sin, getting an incentive through the precept, deludes me, and through it, kills me."

Spirit warring against the flesh.

12 So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good."

Torah

13 Became good, then, death to me? May it not be coming to that!

The Law of Sin and Death is bad.

But Sin, that it may be appearing Sin, is producing death to me through good

The Law of Life

Reborn in Yahshua

, that Sin may become an inordinate sinner through the precept." 14 For we are aware that the law is spiritual, yet I am fleshly, having been disposed of under Sin." 15 For what I am effecting I know not, for not what I will, this I am putting into practice, but what I am hating, this I am doing." 16 Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, I am conceding that the law is ideal."

Paul continues to speak of the spirit warring against the flesh. The ideal law is obviously not The Law of Sin and Death.

17 Yet now it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin making its home in me." 18 For I am aware that good is not making its home in me (that is, in my flesh), for to will is lying beside me, yet to be effecting the ideal is not." 19 For it is not the good that I will that I am doing, but the evil that I am not willing, this I am putting into practice." 20 Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin which is making its home in me."

The war continues.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

21 Consequently, I am finding the law that, at my willing to be doing the ideal, the evil is lying beside me." 22 For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within,

Torah

23 yet I am observing a different law in my members, warring with the law of my mind, and leading me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

Here we have some new laws. The Law of My Mind and The Law of Sin.

Leave to a lawyer to come up with so many nebulous laws.

24 A wretched man am I! What will rescue me out of this body of death? Grace! 25 I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law."

Slaving for YHWH's Law..... These don't strike me as the words of someone who is not under YHWH's Law.


The Law of YHWH (Torah) wars with The Law of Sin.


Legal Terms:

The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)


Romans Chapter 8

 

[Charlie24]

Continued from: Romans Chapter 6

Romans 7 (CLV)
1 Or are you ignorant, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know law),

Paul is after all a lawyer.
When a lawyer is speaking legalese; a layman might think that he knows what a lawyer is telling him in plain English; but if he looks up the terms in a Black's Law dictionary; he might find that the Lawyer meant something very much different. In the last chapter we found that Paul uses the word "law" to define many aspects of different types of law which conflict with each other.

When Paul speaks of "the law;" which law is he talking about, the law we are not under, the law which we are to sustain, the law which is written on our hearts, the law Messiah frees us from, or something else?

that the law is lording it over a man for as much time as he is living?

The Law of Sin and Death

2 For a woman in wedlock is bound to a living man by law. Yet if the man should be dying, she is exempt from the law of the man." 3 Consequently, then, while the man is living, she will be styled an adulteress if she should be becoming another man's, yet, if the man should be dying, she is free from the law, being no adulteress on becoming another man's."

Free from the Law of Sin and Death. She is no longer the slave of Satan. She can then remarry into a covenant of life.

The Law of Life

(CLV) Ro 8:2
for the spirit's law of life in Christ Yahshua frees you from the law of sin and death.

Yahshua follows YHWH's law, the Torah. Yahshua call us to follow him in Torah.

4 So that, my brethren, you also were put to death to the law

The Law of Sin and Death

through the body of Christ, for you to become Another's, Who is roused from among the dead,

The Law of Life

that we should be bearing fruit to God."

Obedience to the Torah is the fruit of faith.

5 For, when we were in the flesh, the passions of sins, which were through the law, operated in our members to be bearing fruit to Death."

The Law of Sin and Death

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

Trangression of the law (Torah).

6 Yet now we were exempted from the law, dying in that in which we were retained,

The law of Sin and Death

so that it is for us to be slaving in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter."

The Law of Faith

(CLV) Ro 3:27
Where, then, is boasting? It is debarred! Through what law? Of works? Not! But through faith's law.

7 What, then, shall we declare? That the law is sin? May it not be coming to that! But sin I knew not except through law.

Torah

For besides, I had not been aware of coveting except the law said, "You shall not be coveting." 8 Now Sin, getting an incentive through the precept, produces in me all manner of coveting. For apart from law Sin is dead."

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

Trangression of the law (Torah).

9 Now I lived, apart from law, once, yet at the coming of the precept Sin revives. Yet I died, 10 and it was found that, to me, the precept for life, this is for death." 11 For Sin, getting an incentive through the precept, deludes me, and through it, kills me."

Spirit warring against the flesh.

12 So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good."

Torah

13 Became good, then, death to me? May it not be coming to that!

The Law of Sin and Death is bad.

But Sin, that it may be appearing Sin, is producing death to me through good

The Law of Life

Reborn in Yahshua

, that Sin may become an inordinate sinner through the precept." 14 For we are aware that the law is spiritual, yet I am fleshly, having been disposed of under Sin." 15 For what I am effecting I know not, for not what I will, this I am putting into practice, but what I am hating, this I am doing." 16 Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, I am conceding that the law is ideal."

Paul continues to speak of the spirit warring against the flesh. The ideal law is obviously not The Law of Sin and Death.

17 Yet now it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin making its home in me." 18 For I am aware that good is not making its home in me (that is, in my flesh), for to will is lying beside me, yet to be effecting the ideal is not." 19 For it is not the good that I will that I am doing, but the evil that I am not willing, this I am putting into practice." 20 Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin which is making its home in me."

The war continues.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

21 Consequently, I am finding the law that, at my willing to be doing the ideal, the evil is lying beside me." 22 For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within,

Torah

23 yet I am observing a different law in my members, warring with the law of my mind, and leading me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

Here we have some new laws. The Law of My Mind and The Law of Sin.

Leave to a lawyer to come up with so many nebulous laws.

24 A wretched man am I! What will rescue me out of this body of death? Grace! 25 I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law."

The Law of YHWH (Torah) wars with The Law of Sin.

Gal. 3:10
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

You're under the curse because you can't keep the Law.

When you accept the fact that Christ kept the Law for you, this battle over the Law will be over for you.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Gal. 3:10
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

You're under the curse because you can't keep the Law.

When you accept the fact that Christ kept the Law for you, this battle over the Law will be over for you.

No. Yeshua eliminated THE CURSE, not the Torah.

 

[HARK!]

Gal. 3:10
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

You're under the curse because you can't keep the Law.

When you accept the fact that Christ kept the Law for you, this battle over the Law will be over for you.

(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'

 

[Charlie24]

(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'

Straight and to the point, how do you keep the Law?

 

[HARK!]

Straight and to the point, how do you keep the Law?

With Faith.

 

[eternally thankful]

Rom 7:4-6 Paul writing to the romans and telling them they must die to righteousness obeying the law. For through such a law sinfull passions are aroused in man. So the believer dies to righteousness of obeying the law and follows after the spirit not the written code/law
verses 7-11 Paul gives a [personal example from his own life as a Pharisee, and why he had to die to the law. Confirmation of verse five, when he states through his knowledge of the commandment: Thou shalt not covet, all manner of concupiscence was aroused in him when he lived under the law.
The rest of the chapter describes Paul's(or rather saul the pharisee's) hopeless battle to obey a law of righteousness, in particular: thou shalt not covet. It is all about sin and defeat

 

[eternally thankful]

No. Yeshua eliminated THE CURSE, not the Torah.

we may disagree as to believers having to obey Torah, but the core of your statement is true and concisely put, it goes to the heart of the matter

 

[eternally thankful]

Straight and to the point, how do you keep the Law?

By dying to a righteousness of obeying it:
For sin(breaking the law) shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Romans6:14

 

[HARK!]

Rom 7:4-6 Paul writing to the romans and telling them they must die to righteousness obeying the law. For through such a law sinfull passions are aroused in man. So the believer dies to righteousness of obeying the law and follows after the spirit not the written code/law

How do you reconcile that postulate with these verses?


Acts 24:14 (NKJV) - "But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the Elohim of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.

Acts 25:8 - while he answered for himself, "Neither against the Law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all."


Romans 2:12 - For as many as have sinned without Law will also perish without Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law 13 (for not the hearers of the Law [are] just in the sight of Yahweh, but the doers of the Law will be justified;


Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.


Romans 7:12 - Therefore the Law [is] holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.


Romans 7:22 - For I delight in the Law of Yahweh according to the inward man.

 

[eternally thankful]

How do you reconcile that postulate with these verses?


Acts 24:14 (NKJV) - "But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the Elohim of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.

Acts 25:8 - while he answered for himself, "Neither against the Law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all."


Romans 2:12 - For as many as have sinned without Law will also perish without Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law 13 (for not the hearers of the Law [are] just in the sight of Yahweh, but the doers of the Law will be justified;


Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.


Romans 7:12 - Therefore the Law [is] holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.


Romans 7:22 - For I delight in the Law of Yahweh according to the inward man.

You need to show me why you believe those verses contradict what I wrote

 

[HARK!]

verses 7-11 Paul gives a [personal example from his own life as a Pharisee, and why he had to die to the law. Confirmation of verse five, when he states through his knowledge of the commandment: Thou shalt not covet, all manner of concupiscence was aroused in him when he lived under the law.
The rest of the chapter describes Paul's(or rather saul the pharisee's) hopeless battle to obey a law of righteousness, in particular: thou shalt not covet. It is all about sin and defeat

You are the first person to use the pharisee in this thread. I suspect a link between "works of law, "The Law of Righteousness," and the Talmud. the Law of Righteousness isn't mentioned until chapter nine of this book. I touch on the link between 'works of law' and the Talmud in my Galatians series.

Paul on the Law: Galatians 2

16 having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified."


What law is this? Let's look at what Paul said in Romans:

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.


Now I don't believe that Paul had mental issues. Obviously "Works of Law" is something different than the Torah.

Paul kept the Torah:

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see it mentioned of it by Yahshua. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned 1 time in Romans and 6 times in Galatians.

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

 

[eternally thankful]

You are the first person to use the pharisee in this thread. I suspect a link between "works of law, "The Law of Righteousness," and the Talmud. the Law of Righteousness isn't mentioned until chapter nine of this book. I touch on the link between 'works of law' and the Talmud in my Galatians series.

Paul on the Law: Galatians 2

16 having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified."


What law is this? Let's look at what Paul said in Romans:

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.


Now I don't believe that Paul had mental issues. Obviously "Works of Law" is something different than the Torah.

Paul kept the Torah:

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see it mentioned of it by Yahshua. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned 1 time in Romans and 6 times in Galatians.

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Works of the law/observing the law/obeying the law, all the same thing.
As to which law Paul is referring to. Well in Romans ch7 it was one of the Ten Commandments: Thou shalt not covet.

 

[HARK!]

You need to show me why you believe those verses contradict what I wrote

follows after the spirit not the written code/law

Abraham demonstrates that obedience of the law is the fruit of faith.

James confirms this.

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

 

[HARK!]

Works of the law/observing the law/obeying the law, all the same thing.

Based on your premise, how do you reconcile these two verses, from the same author, in the same letter?


(CLV) Ro 3:20
because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

 

[eternally thankful]

Abraham demonstrates that obedience of the law is the fruit of faith.

James confirms this.

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

How many scriptures do you want me to quote to show you the Christian has righteousness apart from obeying the law? Works are a result of righteousness apart from obeying the law, they are the works God desires

 

[eternally thankful]

Based on your premise, how do you reconcile these two verses, from the same author, in the same letter?


(CLV) Ro 3:20
because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

A good example of what not to do. Don't just pluck out a single verse without context:

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. verse12&13

Are christians under the law? No!

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14

However, for those choosing to live under the law, they obviously would have to try and be righteous by obeying it

 

[HARK!]

A good example of what not to do. Don't just pluck out a single verse without context:

Very good. You're beginning to catch on.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. verse12&13

Are christians under the law? No!

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14

However, for those choosing to live under the law, they obviously would have to try and be righteous by obeying it

Paul mentions at least eight different categories of law in this letter.

You didn't reconcile these two verses. Again, how do you reconcile these two verses; if they are both referring to the same law?:


(CLV) Ro 3:20
because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

 

[HARK!]

Works of the law/observing the law/obeying the law, all the same thing.

Works are a result of righteousness apart from obeying the law, they are the works God desires

OK, You failed at reconciling Paul's words under your faulty premise.

Here's an easier one for you: How do you reconcile your own words?

 

[eternally thankful]

Very good. You're beginning to catch on.



Paul mentions at least eight different categories of law in this letter.

You didn't reconcile these two verses. Again, how do you reconcile these two verses; if they are both referring to the same law?:


(CLV) Ro 3:20
because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

I did reconcile them, I will make it clearer for you:

(CLV) Ro 3:20
because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.


As paul continually states, the believer has righteousness apart from observing the law, note, not righteousness apart from some law, but law full stop!​

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe Rom3:21&22

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

You really need to see the two verses in combination! If a person lives under the law, they live under righteousness of obeying the law, that is what it means. So, if a person chooses to live under righteousness of obeying the law, they will be justified/righteous by obeying the law. Do you understand that? But Christians do not live under the law(romans6:14) You are reading too many verses in isolation. Or let me put it another way. If I said to you, if you live under the law you must perfectly obey it to be justified before God, and then kept repeating you cannot be justified by obeying the law, would you conclude I was telling you to seek justification of obeying the law? Read the bible as one cohesive whole, then you should understand your reasoning of rom 2:13 is faulty. Lets turn to chapter 3:

What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin ch3:9

Paul has previously been showing that neither jew or gentile obeyed the law, for they were all under sin(which is breaking the law). For if we return to the two verses of ch2:12&13, Paul makes clear if you want to be under the law/justified by it you must obey it or perish. And he makes abundantly clear time after time that no one can be justified by obeying law. To take it one step further:
For all who rely on the works of the law(or observing the law) are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’ 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith. Gal3:10&11
The above actually echoes rom2:12&13, if you want to be righteous under the law you must fully obey it. However, Paul makes clear no one can do that, therefore no one who relies on the law will be justified by it. You need to read the bible as one cohesive whole, not just snatch odd verses at random and built a doctrine on it. That leads to error​