Paul as a Christian claims to live as a consistent Pharisee

[BobRyan]

So in other words you are saying the righteousness bought on the cross isn't good enough to obsolete ANY other righteousness possible?

And in Rev 19:8 the Bible says ...

 

[BobRyan]

Paul put the Law in its proper place... obsoleted by the cross.

And in Rom 3:31 - the Bible says "Do we then make void/obsolete the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!!! in fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

In fact for New Covenant Christians - we have God's "LAW written on the mind and heart" Jer 31:31-33, Heb 8:6-10

 

[BobRyan]

what unit of Law is Paul affirming in Eph 6:2 when HE says that the saints must obey it - including the 5th Commandment "Honor your father and mother for this is the first Commandment with a promise"??

No other unit of Law has that feature - except the Bible - TEN Commandments.

No wonder D.L. Moody, R.C. Sproul, The Baptist Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession of Faith all affirm that part of the BIBLE.

 

[Soyeong]

So in other words you are saying the righteousness bought on the cross isn't good enough to obsolete ANY other righteousness possible?

Being declared righteous means that we are declared to be someone who by faith does what is righteous, not that we are declared to be someone who is unconcerned with having a righteous conduct. The Spirit dwells in us to lead us into having a righteous conduct (Ezekiel 36:26-27), not in order to become declared righteous, but because we have been declared righteous. Without the power of the cross we were slaves to our sin and could not have a righteous conduct, but it is by faith through the power of the cross that we are able to do so. God sent his son to condemn sin in the flesh in order that we might be free to not sin and to obey His law and meet it's righteous requirement by walking in the Spirit (Romans 8:3-4). It is the righteous who live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4), or in other words, those who do what is right live by trusting God to lead them into doing what is right by obeying His law. Conversely, it is those who have carnal mind that do not submit to God's law, they do not live by faith, and cannot please God (Romans 8:7-8).

If being declared righteous meant that we should no longer be concerned with obeying God and doing what is right and are permitted to sin, then there would be no point to all of the commands in the NT or all the warnings against sin or in becoming like Christ.

 

[Sophrosyne]

And in Rom 3:31 - the Bible says "Do we then make void/obsolete the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!!! in fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

In fact for New Covenant Christians - we have God's "LAW written on the mind and heart" Jer 31:31-33, Heb 8:6-10

If the Law doesn't save us, and doesn't remove our salvation then it is obsolete because Jesus did that. Simply put since the Mosaic Law is NOT for Gentiles then it is NOT written on the heart of them.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Being declared righteous means that we are declared to be someone who by faith does what is righteous, not that we are declared to be someone who is unconcerned with having a righteous conduct. The Spirit dwells in us to lead us into having a righteous conduct (Ezekiel 36:26-27), not in order to become declared righteous, but because we have been declared righteous. Without the power of the cross we were slaves to our sin and could not have a righteous conduct, but it is by faith through the power of the cross that we are able to do so. God sent his son to condemn sin in the flesh in order that we might be free to not sin and to obey His law and meet it's righteous requirement by walking in the Spirit (Romans 8:3-4). It is the righteous who live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4), or in other words, those who do what is right live by trusting God to lead them into doing what is right by obeying His law. Conversely, it is those who have carnal mind that do not submit to God's law, they do not live by faith, and cannot please God (Romans 8:7-8).

If being declared righteous meant that we should no longer be concerned with obeying God and doing what is right and are permitted to sin, then there would be no point to all of the commands in the NT or all the warnings against sin or in becoming like Christ.

If we are declared righteous by Jesus' sacrifice prove to me that Gentile Christians who have no desire to keep the Law are NOT saved and prove that they forfeit their salvation when they don't keep the Law. Good luck on that.

 

[Jahrooshshalom]

It is sometimes hard to tell which mask he is wearing.

Paul stated he was a Pharisee in his letters.
Be aware also that there are Christians who are not Pauline affiliated. Possibly for the very reason they don't ascribe their faith in Jesus to one who wears such a mask.
Such Christians , non-Pauline's as they're sometimes called, one site dedicated to this is "Jesus Words Only". These type Christians refer back to when Jesus anointed his Disciples feet with his own hands. A ceremony making them ready to walk into the world and deliver the new covenant, the good news of the promised Messiah having come to save his people.
Such Christians also reference Jesus warning of false teachers and deceivers who would claim they'd seen him here, or he'd appeared there. And this after Jesus would leave the earth to return to Heaven to be with the Father. Jesus said of such people that they were not to be believed.
They also remind doubters that Satan is lord of this world. That he is known as the light bringer!
When the accounts, two differing one's, of Saul's encounter with the light while on the road to Damascus, state that Paul heard thunder and then a voice asking; Paul, Paul, who dost thou persecute me? That it was Saul who called that voice lord. But Satan is a deceiver and Jesus was no longer on the earth.
Paul told people in his letters to follow him! As he followed Jesus.
Jesus removed the scales from the blind man, using mud from his own hands. He healed the blind. Saul was blinded with scales, like a serpent. Would Jesus blind? Or is blinding the action of the opponent, the adversary, that which commits to the opposite of righteousness? Jesus healed the blind. This lord Saul met on the Damascus road, two differing accounts remember, blinded Saul.

I have a friend who is non-Pauline. He says that he believes the reason the world is falling more and more into the enemies hands is because for over 2000 years it is the enemies doctrine that has caused the world to believe the opposite of that which was intended to save it.
Considering, as he puts it, for the first 280 years after Christ the Roman empire banned his teachings. Then all the sudden the empire that executed God manifest a doctrine that empowered a Caesar and a Senate copy into a church dedicated to the very teacher they executed centuries before and so that that Roman empire would survive into the future.

If you have doubts about Saul be not afraid. Many others do too and for good reason they say.

 

[BobRyan]

And in Rom 3:31 - the Bible says "Do we then make void/obsolete the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!!! in fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

In fact for New Covenant Christians - we have God's "LAW written on the mind and heart" Jer 31:31-33, Heb 8:6-10

If the Law doesn't save us, and doesn't remove our salvation then it is obsolete because Jesus did that.

The Law did not save in the OT either - but Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in glorified form in Matt 17 - before the cross. And they were all 3 Sabbath keepers.

Thus your conclusion is not in harmony with the text of scripture.

Simply put since the Mosaic Law is NOT for Gentiles then it is NOT written on the heart of them.

your argument is "with the text"

For the new Covenant - read Jer 31:31-33 see the details.

And you read Is 66:23 " from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to Worship" -- turns out.. gentiles are included in "all mankind".

"The Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27

No text says that scripture written by Moses does not apply to Gentiles - in fact we keep quoting it
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 and
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5

"If they will not listen to Moses neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" Luke 16

================= unavoidable question
what unit of Law is Paul affirming in Eph 6:2 when HE says that the saints must obey it - including the 5th Commandment "Honor your father and mother for this is the first Commandment with a promise"??

No other unit of Law has that feature - except the Bible - TEN Commandments.

No wonder D.L. Moody, R.C. Sproul, The Baptist Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession of Faith all affirm that part of the BIBLE.

 

[Soyeong]

If the Law doesn't save us, and doesn't remove our salvation then it is obsolete because Jesus did that. Simply put since the Mosaic Law is NOT for Gentiles then it is NOT written on the heart of them.

The law didn't save Moses and disobedience to it didn't remove his salvation, so was the law obsolete when it was given to Moses? Or did God have some other purpose in wanting their obedience? The law can't be made obsolete by not doing what was never its purpose.

If we are declared righteous by Jesus' sacrifice prove to me that Gentile Christians who have no desire to keep the Law are NOT saved and prove that they forfeit their salvation when they don't keep the Law. Good luck on that.

Romans 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

We are justified by faith apart from the law, but our faith in God means that we trust Him to lead us away from sin and into doing what is right by obeying His law, and in this way our faith upholds the law. In other words, we are saved because we trust God and and we obey God because we trust Him, but we are not saved by obeying God. In Romans 2:13, it notably does not say that we will be justified by obeying the law, but rather it is the doers of the law who will be justified. It is the doers of the law who live by faith in God to lead us away from sin and into doing what is righteous, and it is that faith that saves us.

If you are a worker of lawlessness who desires to practice sin and has no desire to trust God to lead you into doing what is right by obeying His law, then you have neither seen or known him (1 John 3:6) and you will not be saved. It is only those who practice righteousness in accordance with the law who are the children of God (1 John 3:10) and those who do the will of the Father, which He made known in His law, who will enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Sophrosyne]

The law didn't save Moses and disobedience to it didn't remove his salvation, so was the law obsolete when it was given to Moses? Or did God have some other purpose in wanting their obedience? The law can't be made obsolete by not doing what was never its purpose.

Romans 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

We are justified by faith apart from the law, but our faith in God means that we trust Him to lead us away from sin and into doing what is right by obeying His law, and in this way our faith upholds the law. In other words, we are saved because we trust God and and we obey God because we trust Him, but we are not saved by obeying God. In Romans 2:13, it notably does not say that we will be justified by obeying the law, but rather it is the doers of the law who will be justified. It is the doers of the law who live by faith in God to lead us away from sin and into doing what is righteous, and it is that faith that saves us.

If you are a worker of lawlessness who desires to practice sin and has no desire to trust God to lead you into doing what is right by obeying His law, then you have neither seen or known him (1 John 3:6) and you will not be saved. It is only those who practice righteousness in accordance with the law who are the children of God (1 John 3:10) and those who do the will of the Father, which He made known in His law, who will enter the kingdom of heaven.

I'm using the obsolete idiom because Christians are NOT under the Law and Gentiles are not Jews who are under the Law and in Christ there is no Jew OR Gentile they are seen as the same. This statement Paul made and it wasn't with a little * at the bottom that says "under the Law" either. Let's face it nowhere do we see Paul or any Jewish apostle nor Jesus commanding Gentiles to keep the Law of Moses. One has to IGNORE screaming to the top of their voice the Council of Jerusalem who banned the Law of Moses upon Gentiles. As long as Gentiles are NOT required to keep the Law and ARE saved and Jews and Gentiles are EQUAL in Christ then the Law is obsolete for the Jews to keep because it does NOTHING for them regarding righteousness.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Simply put.....
Galatians 5:18New American Standard Bible (NASB)
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

If you want to be under the Law then you are probably kicking the Holy Spirit to the curb in your effort to be righteous.

 

[Sophrosyne]

1 Corinthians 9:20-22New American Standard Bible (NASB)
20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

And here Paul admits to NOT being under the Law.

 

[BobRyan]

1 cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

What unit of Law is Paul promoting here?

Eph 6:2
2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

What unit of Law (in the actual Bible) is Paul holding up before the NT saints when he instructs us to Honor our parents?

It would be the one where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise" -- and unit of LAW in the Bible - has that feature??


Rom 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

 

[Soyeong]

I'm using the obsolete idiom because Christians are NOT under the Law and Gentiles are not Jews who are under the Law and in Christ there is no Jew OR Gentile they are seen as the same. This statement Paul made and it wasn't with a little * at the bottom that says "under the Law" either. Let's face it nowhere do we see Paul or any Jewish apostle nor Jesus commanding Gentiles to keep the Law of Moses. One has to IGNORE screaming to the top of their voice the Council of Jerusalem who banned the Law of Moses upon Gentiles. As long as Gentiles are NOT required to keep the Law and ARE saved and Jews and Gentiles are EQUAL in Christ then the Law is obsolete for the Jews to keep because it does NOTHING for them regarding righteousness.

God is holy, righteous, and good, and His law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) because it is based off of His character and it is His instructions for how to act in accordance with His character and how to avoid sin. Though it was given to Jews, it is not instructions for how to identify with Jews, but how to identify with God, and it is about the conduct that God wants His chosen people to have. It is the conduct that Christ modeled for us, and as his followers we are to follow in his example (1 Peter 2:21) and walk as he walked (1 John 2:4-6), as go through the process of sanctification and are made to be more like Christ in his character and obedience to the Father. As part of God's chosen people, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, and a treasure of God's own possession (1 Peter 2:9-10), we are to act according to His character and both Jews and Gentiles are told to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct (1 John 3:10, 1 Peter 1:14-16) and to avoid a sinful or lawless conduct (1 John 3:4-10).

Christ was not in disagreement with the Father about which laws should be obeyed or the character that we should have, but rather he said that his teaching was not his own, but that of the one who sent him (John 7:16) and that he came only to do the Father's will (John 6:38), so the law of Christ precisely is the way that he taught how to correctly keep the law of Moses, such as in Matthew 5. However, I would completely agree with you that we are not under the law, but I would disagree that Paul used that phrase to mean that we don't need to obey God because disobeying His law is defined as sin (1 John 3:4) and being under grace doesn't mean we are to sin (Romans 6:15). Rather Paul specified that we died to that which held us captive (Roman 7:6), so we are not under the law in the sense that it no longer has power over us to condemn us to death for breaking it, which is the point he is building to (Roman 8:1). However, all throughout the Bible God wanted obedience from us, so He has no reason to free us from obeying Him, nor should we even want to be free from what is holy, righteous, and good. We were freed from sin and disobedience to God's law so that we could be free to have a righteous conduct in obedience to Him (Romans 6:15-19), not so that we could be free to continue in disobedience.

The Jerusalem Council never ruled that Gentiles were not to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct, nor did they have the authority to countermand God. We must always obey God rather than men, and if you ever interpret the Bible as saying that we should obey men rather than God, such as obeying the Jerusalem Council rather than God, then you have misinterpreted the Bible.

Simply put.....
Galatians 5:18New American Standard Bible (NASB)
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

If you want to be under the Law then you are probably kicking the Holy Spirit to the curb in your effort to be righteous.

Indeed, if you are led by the Spirit that you are above the law in that the Spirit will lead you in a higher observance of the law that exceeds it's written requirements. Walking by faith in the Spirit is the right way that we are to obey God, while trying to obey God through our own effort without the Spirit leads to death.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22New American Standard Bible (NASB)
20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

And here Paul admits to NOT being under the Law.

Indeed, Paul said that he wasn't under the law, but note that he also said that he was not without the law of God, but under the law of Christ, which are parallel statements saying the same thing.

2 Peter 3:14-17 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

In other words, Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable will twist his words and fall into the error of lawlessness. This is saying that if you interpret Paul as being in favor of lawlessness and against obedience God, then you are wrong.

 

[Soyeong]

1 cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God"

Fixed it for you. There's no capital "Commandments" in that sentence and God gave more than 10 commandments.

 

[BobRyan]

n Rom 3:31 - the Bible says "Do we then make void/obsolete the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!!! in fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

In fact for New Covenant Christians - we have God's "LAW written on the mind and heart" Jer 31:31-33, Heb 8:6-10

Rom 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

 

[BobRyan]

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

What unit of Law is Paul promoting here?

Eph 6:2
2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

What unit of Law (in the actual Bible) is Paul holding up before the NT saints when he instructs us to Honor our parents?

It would be the one where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise" -- and unit of LAW in the Bible - has that feature??

Rom 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Fixed it for you. There's no capital "Commandments" in that sentence and God gave more than 10 commandments.

Fascinating "fix".

What about that Eph 6:2 unit of LAW??

 

[Open Heart]

And here Paul admits to NOT being under the Law.

This means Paul does not believe that following the Law alone will get him salvation. It does NOT mean he disobeyed the Law. He testifies under oath in Acts that he has kept every law.

 

[BobRyan]

Notice that in these examples Paul is not "commanding people to dishonor their parents" but rather he commands the exact opposite.

I think we all can agree to that.

But what is interesting is that he does not stop there. He could simply say "I think you should honor your parents" but instead he appeals to the Unit of LAW that it is found in "For this is the first COMMANDMENT with a promise" -- he goes out of his way to point out that authority that the command derives from being in the TEN Commandments.
===================================

1 cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

What unit of Law is Paul promoting here?

Eph 6:2
2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

What unit of Law (in the actual Bible) is Paul holding up before the NT saints when he instructs us to Honor our parents?

It would be the one where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise" -- and unit of LAW in the Bible - has that feature??


Rom 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

 

[Soyeong]

Fascinating "fix".

What about that Eph 6:2 unit of LAW??

Indeed, that is one of the Ten.