Paul as a Christian claims to live as a consistent Pharisee

[BobRyan]

Paul claims to be a Jew even after becoming a Christian - and says this is also true of Peter

In Acts 21 - James is squarely in favor of Messianic Jews to the point of instructing Paul to participate in a ceremonial vow.

In Gal 2
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles

Acts 23:6
But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!"

Acts 13
14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, “Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.”

16 Then Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, “Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68604514, member: 235244"]Although Paul was certainly not under the condemnation of the Law as a born again New Covenant Christian - yet he also was not devoted to rebellion against the Law of God -

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles starting with clarification of his teaching for his fellow Messianic Jews.



Acts 21
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

Acts 24
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.;


Acts 26
Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come; 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles;

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening

================ and so for New Covenant Christians.

"I will write My LAW on their mind and heart" Jer 31:31-33 Heb 8:6-10
"if you Love Me KEEP My commandments" John 14:15
"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

 

[bbbbbbb]

Do you know who wrote this?

20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

 

[JackRT]

It is sometimes hard to tell which mask he is wearing.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Rhetoric such a "rebellion against the Law of God" doesn't but appeal to emotion when it comes to Paul as he was one of whom those who were keepers of the Law were seeking out to destroy which pretty much means Paul IS rebelling according to the Lawkeepers. If Paul is seen as in rebellion by lawkeepers then using his words is to identify with being ALSO rebelling against the Law so either you have to drop the rhetoric or consider Paul an enemy of you or side against those who were lawkeepers (pharisees).

 

[BobRyan]

so much bible to avoid when it gets posted on threads like this one.... so little time.

So fine that is "one solution" -- is there another?? perhaps a "sola scriptura" solution that does not "need to avoid the texts" in the OP????

 

[Sophrosyne]

so much bible to avoid when it gets posted on threads like this one.... so little time.

So fine that is "one solution" -- is there another?? perhaps a "sola scriptura" solution that does not "need to avoid the texts" in the OP????

My irony meter just exploded.

 

[BobRyan]

"Exploding meters" not withstanding - the texts in the OP remain without refutation - Paul is testifying under oath about his message, his doctrine, and his practice as a Christian.

Oct 30, 2015 #1

 

[SAAN]

Paul claims to be a Jew even after becoming a Christian - and says this is also true of Peter

In Acts 21 - James is squarely in favor of Messianic Jews to the point of instructing Paul to participate in a ceremonial vow.

In Gal 2
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles

Acts 23:6
But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!"

Acts 13
14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, “Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.”

16 Then Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, “Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68604514, member: 235244"]Although Paul was certainly not under the condemnation of the Law as a born again New Covenant Christian - yet he also was not devoted to rebellion against the Law of God -

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles starting with clarification of his teaching for his fellow Messianic Jews.



Acts 21
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

Acts 24
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.;


Acts 26
Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come; 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles;

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening

================ and so for New Covenant Christians.

"I will write My LAW on their mind and heart" Jer 31:31-33 Heb 8:6-10
"if you Love Me KEEP My commandments" John 14:15
"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Paul never referred to himself as a Christians. He said he was a Hebrew.

Philippians 3:5 (KJV)
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

 

[BobRyan]

Paul never referred to himself as a Christians. He said he was a Hebrew.

Philippians 3:5 (KJV)
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Phil 3 is Paul's claim about his background - but in the quotes I gave you - Paul is speaking about his current teaching, ministry, practice -- in many cases under oath in a court of law.

 

[Gary the Kid]

If the Temple is Open, There are no Laws............What I do know is that Jesus said, it was finished. I also know the day was changed, but for what reason.............you have to understand Who the Bright and Morning Star is........

 

[Gary the Kid]

So busy looking at Creation and the day, a person can miss the Open Temple........

 

[Gary the Kid]

I also do not trust a person who changes their name and instantly has knowledge............So Saul knows it all.......Really.

 

[BobRyan]

If the Temple is Open, There are no Laws.

No Bible text says that - are you saying we should 'quote you' as our source for that?

 

[Soyeong]

Rhetoric such a "rebellion against the Law of God" doesn't but appeal to emotion when it comes to Paul as he was one of whom those who were keepers of the Law were seeking out to destroy which pretty much means Paul IS rebelling according to the Lawkeepers. If Paul is seen as in rebellion by lawkeepers then using his words is to identify with being ALSO rebelling against the Law so either you have to drop the rhetoric or consider Paul an enemy of you or side against those who were lawkeepers (pharisees).

Paul was against Jewish traditions for how to keep the law, not against God's holy, righteous, and good law. We must obey God rather than men.

 

[Soyeong]

I also do not trust a person who changes their name and instantly has knowledge............So Saul knows it all.......Really.

There are a number of people who hold that he was given both names at birth.

 

[Soyeong]

If the Temple is Open, There are no Laws............What I do know is that Jesus said, it was finished. I also know the day was changed, but for what reason.............you have to understand Who the Bright and Morning Star is........

Jesus was referring to his redemptive work on the cross, not to doing away with the law. If there is no law, then Christians are free to sin, but Paul made it clear that that wasn't the case. Christ died on the cross to free us from sin, not to free us to sin.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Paul was against Jewish traditions for how to keep the law, not against God's holy, righteous, and good law. We must obey God rather than men.

Paul put the Law in its proper place... obsoleted by the cross.

 

[Soyeong]

Paul put the Law in its proper place... obsoleted by the cross.

Except that was never the purpose of the cross. What was nailed to crosses was the crimes that the person had committed not the law itself. In other words, they didn't have legislate new laws every time someone was crucified. Our transgressions of the law were what was nailed to the cross and it was Jesus who died on that cross in our place. Furthermore, it's absurd to say that holiness, righteousness, and goodness were made obsolete by the cross.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Except that was never the purpose of the cross. What was nailed to crosses was the crimes that the person had committed not the law itself. In other words, they didn't have legislate new laws every time someone was crucified. Our transgressions of the law were what was nailed to the cross and it was Jesus who died on that cross in our place. Furthermore, it's absurd to say that holiness, righteousness, and goodness were made obsolete by the cross.

So in other words you are saying the righteousness bought on the cross isn't good enough to obsolete ANY other righteousness possible?

 

[BobRyan]

There are a number of people who hold that he was given both names at birth.

In any case God gives the second name in Damascus and we do not have a reason to condemn it - since God approved it. (As I am sure almost all here - on both sides of the debate would agree)