Pagans

[Yggdrasil]

Does this mean that you will quit belittling it?
If it seems like I'm belittling it, my apologies. I get carried away sometimes. No offense is intended.


Again, how do these things show that something is true?

I think the first religions are the first religions for a reason. That is why.


All sin seperates us from God.

Proving my point that God will only save those who worship him.


Yes, He did. Now we have to ask ourselves whether or not this is a true statement.

Well, your savior said it, isn't that truth enough for you?


Actually, Hell is a real, literal place and we do know quite a bit about it.

Is that so? Then where is it and what specifically do we know about it?

 

[Adstar]

Yggdrasil

I do not think you have been decieved. Believe in what you wish. Just don'y go telling me that everything my lif eis based on is lies. Becaue to me and many others, our faith is real, and so is yours to you.

If what i believe is false then i have been decieved and also the same for you if what you believe is false then you have been decieved. So if you think i am wrong in what i have said to you then you think i am decieved. We cannot both be right satan either exists or he does not. Either you are decieved or i am decieved there is no half way neutrality here.

I go to a Catholic school (not by choice) so I am quite familiar with Jesus. I've read the bible and Torah twice each. So, i'm not ignorant of your god.

Going to a religious school and reading the bible means nothing if you are not guided by the Holy Spirit in your reading. The Bible clearly states that the Gospel is foolishness to many people and to others a stumbling stone.

Now, I did not say that Jesus himself forced christianity on others, it was the PEOPLE who did it. Since humans always force their ideals on each other, not Jesus.

Thank you. And therefore anyone who goes against the clear direction of Jesus in the spreading of the faith by using violence and intimidation is Not a true follower of Jesus right? And therefore you should not be calling them christians, or using their actions down throughout history as an argument against the faith of Jesus.

Plus, I think you would start believing in something pretty fast if you were threatened with death or exile. You have to put it in the context of their times, not ours.

No. Many people do not believe in things when they face death or intimidation, people just do and say all the things that "society" deems nessecary for them to exist. And this thing is not something that happens in "their times" People are being threatened with death and are having their heads hacked of today because they refuse to believe in a lie.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Yggdrasil]

Yggdrasil



If what i believe is false then i have been decieved and also the same for you if what you believe is false then you have been decieved. So if you think i am wrong in what i have said to you then you think i am decieved. We cannot both be right satan either exists or he does not. Either you are decieved or i am decieved there is no half way neutrality here.




Going to a religious school and reading the bible means nothing if you are not guided by the Holy Spirit in your reading. The Bible clearly states that the Gospel is foolishness to many people and to others a stumbling stone.

I was just stating that I was not ignorant of your teachings.


Thank you. And therefore anyone who goes against the clear direction of Jesus in the spreading of the faith by using violence and intimidation is Not a true follower of Jesus right? And therefore you should not be calling them christians, or using their actions down throughout history as an argument against the faith of Jesus.

I have nothing against your god, but some of the people who have done injustice in it's name.



No. Many people do not believe in things when they face death or intimidation, people just do and say all the things that "society" deems nessecary for them to exist. And this thing is not something that happens in "their times" People are being threatened with death and are having their heads hacked of today because they refuse to believe in a lie.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Not all people, but the majority will if faced with harm to them or their families.

 

[12volt_man]

If it seems like I'm belittling it, my apologies. I get carried away sometimes. No offense is intended.

Of course. Why would we be offended, just because you call our most cherished beliefs "fairy tales".

I think the first religions are the first religions for a reason. That is why.

How does something being the first show that it is true?

Proving my point that God will only save those who worship him.

God does not save us on the basis of our worship. We worship out of gratitude for our salvation.

Well, your savior said it, isn't that truth enough for you?

I do believe that it's true. But just because I believe something doesn't make it true. Either it's true across the board, for everyone, or it's not.

Is that so? Then where is it and what specifically do we know about it?

Yes.

We know that it is a place prepared for the Devil and his angels and the wicked who are seperated from God by sin.

We know that it is fiery.

We know that it is eternal.

We know that it is inescapable.

Most important of all, we know that Jesus died on our behalf so that we would not have to go there.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Of course. Why would we be offended, just because you call our most cherished beliefs "fairy tales".

It is widely accepted that most of the OT are moral stories. Several of my theology professors ,who are staunch Catholic conservatives, wil bakc me up on this.



How does something being the first show that it is true?

I believe everything happens for a reason, and the reason for them being first and all the other sbeing second and third says something.



God does not save us on the basis of our worship. We worship out of gratitude for our salvation.

Still, my point stands.


I do believe that it's true. But just because I believe something doesn't make it true. Either it's true across the board, for everyone, or it's not.

In response to the highlighted text: Then how can you believe something if you have doubt that it's true or not?

Yes.

We know that it is a place prepared for the Devil and his angels and the wicked who are seperated from God by sin.

We know that it is fiery.

We know that it is eternal.

We know that it is inescapable.

Most important of all, we know that Jesus died on our behalf so that we would not have to go there.

Those are hardly real facts and cannot be proven. (about your response to my hell question)

 

[12volt_man]

It is widely accepted that most of the OT are moral stories. Several of my theology professors ,who are staunch Catholic conservatives, wil bakc me up on this.

"Widely accepted" by whom?

There was a time when it was "widely accepted" that the Earth was flat.

Truth is not determined by a majority vote.

I believe everything happens for a reason, and the reason for them being first and all the other sbeing second and third says something.

Why won't you answer the question?

Still, my point stands.

No, actually, it doesn't.

You keep on insisting that God saves us because of our worship of Him.

The Bible and Christianity teach something very different.

Then how can you believe something if you have doubt that it's true or not?

I don't doubt that it's true. In fact, I do believe that it's true and, after studying it for twenty years now, I'm more convinced than ever that it's true.

What I said was that it cannot be true for one person and not true for another. It is either true or it isn't true.

Those are hardly real facts and cannot be proven.

And I believe that the reliability and authority of the witness in this case gives such credibility to the argument that we can know beyond a reasonable doubt that they are true.

 

[carminejulie]

Hello. I am a proud Pagan and I'm wondering what are your TRUE AND HONEST opinions on Paganism is.

itis the worship of the created, not the creator. paganism sees God is the creation.

You worship GAia so much of the things you do are done with a consideration to a healthy earth, not because it is the right thing to do ethically, but because you are part of her, your mother that created you....

 

[Yggdrasil]

itis the worship of the created, not the creator. paganism sees God is the creation.

You worship GAia so much of the things you do are done with a consideration to a healthy earth, not because it is the right thing to do ethically, but because you are part of her, your mother that created you....

I worship The Vanir, not Gaia.

 

[Sketcher]

Still, that does not give anyone the right to judge everyone of a certain faith just because they met some bad apples. It's like me judging all christians off of what certain morons like Pat Robertson says.

Well I'd have to meet some of these "normal" pagans, wouldn't I?

What exactly is the definition of evil? Is evil even real, since evil and good are purely subjective? I'm sorry, but there are no evil spirits in my faith. The stereotype the far right has put out about Pagans is pretty much hate speech.

That's a fundamental disagreement between your faith and mine. Morality is absolute. There is absolute good and absolute evil.

The only reason Christianity is as big as it is, is because it was adopted by one of the largest militaries in the world(Rome) and was spread through forceful means.

Not really. Even in the days of Constantine the Great (who was the first Christian emporer, and granted tolerance to ALL religions in the Empire) Christian troops under the other Augustus were culled from the ranks forcefully and slowly. It was not until Constantine defeated him in battle three years later that all Christians in the Empire were legally safe.

Furthermore, your claim does not account for the many soldiers, senators, plebians, ex-priests and ex-priestesses who were converted from one form of paganism or another before the Christian emporers came about.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Well I'd have to meet some of these "normal" pagans, wouldn't I?


That's a fundamental disagreement between your faith and mine. Morality is absolute. There is absolute good and absolute evil.


Not really. Even in the days of Constantine the Great (who was the first Christian emporer, and granted tolerance to ALL religions in the Empire) Christian troops under the other Augustus were culled from the ranks forcefully and slowly. It was not until Constantine defeated him in battle three years later that all Christians in the Empire were legally safe.

Furthermore, your claim does not account for the many soldiers, senators, plebians, ex-priests and ex-priestesses who were converted from one form of paganism or another before the Christian emporers came about.

Your talking to a normal one right now. Do you think Christians are the only normal people of faith?


Like I have stated before, Constantine sanctioned mass closings of Pagan temples and exile for ones who did not comply.

 

[RayJGentry]

Well, I don't really have any thoughts about paganism. Your religion doesn't compell you to kill people or live outside the Social Contract. You are still my brother, as a creation of God deserving my love as much as everyone else. You said that you've done research over the past 20 years and I hope you continue to do so. I think that anyone who becomes completely satisfied with their faith will become stagnant with it and it will cease to be a living faith. I hope that you do not put Christians in your life who condemn and judge you, that is not our place. I hope that you do not exclude Christians from your life simply for that fact. I pray that you discuss and debate with them, honestly and open mindedly. If at the end of the day, your mind is the same, then bless you and I hope your journey continues with blessings.

I believe that my faith is right, but that my belief in my God does not give me the right to judge you. I will share my faith with you when and if you are willing and I will discuss with you both your religion and mine.

Ray J Gentry IV

 

[Yggdrasil]

Well, I don't really have any thoughts about paganism. Your religion doesn't compell you to kill people or live outside the Social Contract. You are still my brother, as a creation of God deserving my love as much as everyone else. You said that you've done research over the past 20 years and I hope you continue to do so. I think that anyone who becomes completely satisfied with their faith will become stagnant with it and it will cease to be a living faith. I hope that you do not put Christians in your life who condemn and judge you, that is not our place. I hope that you do not exclude Christians from your life simply for that fact. I pray that you discuss and debate with them, honestly and open mindedly. If at the end of the day, your mind is the same, then bless you and I hope your journey continues with blessings.

I believe that my faith is right, but that my belief in my God does not give me the right to judge you. I will share my faith with you when and if you are willing and I will discuss with you both your religion and mine.

Ray J Gentry IV

Thank you. You're very nice.

 

[ForumGuy]

Yggdrasil: Unlike the other Christans in this thread, I'm not going to bother trying to convert you or such, since you seem pretty set in your beliefs, and I don't think theirs anything I can say to convince you.
I hope you do not find what I am about to ask offensive, I do not mean any offence, I have just noticed something and it has made me curious.
Something I'm curious of, do you practice magic?
If so, have you had any adverse effects from it?
I have a theory that it can lead come across many Satanists who had trouble speaking and thinking coherantly, and it seems to have started and/or devloped as they practicsed magic. I even see a lesser effect in Pagan magic users, maybe its just me.
But one of my friends is a Pagan. He is an actual genius (having scored high enough on his IQ test), and talking to him you can tell. Hes a cool guy, but suffered depression in the past, and still has to take heavy drugs, and sometimes angrily snaps with no or almost no provaction. Its not even a short temper, sometime his mood just seems to shift. And I remember when we were playing a fantasy and I was asking about why the critical magic table in Gurps worked the way it did (not even thinking about religon or anything) he replied "Magic is about bending reality. If you push it too far, it can snap back on you".
So it really makes me wonder. I would ask him, but I don't want offend him, and he seems to think I'm a little preachy, even though I'm not (and I swear, I don't try to constantly convert him, or bring it up except when the others start talking about religon or spirituality).

 

[Yggdrasil]

Yggdrasil: Unlike the other Christans in this thread, I'm not going to bother trying to convert you or such, since you seem pretty set in your beliefs, and I don't think theirs anything I can say to convince you.
I hope you do not find what I am about to ask offensive, I do not mean any offence, I have just noticed something and it has made me curious.
Something I'm curious of, do you practice magic?
If so, have you had any adverse effects from it?
I have a theory that it can lead come across many Satanists who had trouble speaking and thinking coherantly, and it seems to have started and/or devloped as they practicsed magic. I even see a lesser effect in Pagan magic users, maybe its just me.
But one of my friends is a Pagan. He is an actual genius (having scored high enough on his IQ test), and talking to him you can tell. Hes a cool guy, but suffered depression in the past, and still has to take heavy drugs, and sometimes angrily snaps with no or almost no provaction. Its not even a short temper, sometime his mood just seems to shift. And I remember when we were playing a fantasy and I was asking about why the critical magic table in Gurps worked the way it did (not even thinking about religon or anything) he replied "Magic is about bending reality. If you push it too far, it can snap back on you".
So it really makes me wonder. I would ask him, but I don't want offend him, and he seems to think I'm a little preachy, even though I'm not (and I swear, I don't try to constantly convert him, or bring it up except when the others start talking about religon or spirituality).

Asatru doesn't really deal with magic that much. In fact, it's more praying to the gods, and focusing on Runes to heal people. Unlike other pagan traditions, Asatru is one that doesn't set it's rituals around magic rituals alone. An example of this would be carving a holy rune symbol on a peice of wood, rock, bone ect, and then praying to the gods to charge the holy rune with their knowledge and help the person who carries the rune.

They can also be used for meditation, protection and other good things. They CAN NOT be used for negative perposes.

I find that Satanists are very misguided people, because they center their beliefs around evil, perversion and one's own good. Although Satanism is not a pagan religion.

All Pagan religions center their lives and beliefs on the good, the positive aspects of mankind and Nature. Thatis why I absolutely hate it when people suggest Paganism is some sort of evil deception by Satan to lead us into sin. Paganism is all about positive belief.

 

[Tyrone24]

You know, I have some pagan friends too, and they seem to be very nice and sensible people. I know that every religion probably has some very nice and some very mean members of it, yet, are many pagans that you know as nice and (this is a little mis-worded probably) knowledgable about their religion as you are?

 

[Tyrone24]

P.S. to ForumGuy:
You're in the minorityof gracious and well-informed Christians. I aplaud you for that.

 

[Yggdrasil]

You know, I have some pagan friends too, and they seem to be very nice and sensible people. I know that every religion probably has some very nice and some very mean members of it, yet, are many pagans that you know as nice and (this is a little mis-worded probably) knowledgable about their religion as you are?

Every single religion has it's very nice people, it's fundamentalists, it's crazies and their hateful. In fact, some of the nicest people I know are Christians. All of my freinds, save my pagan ones, are very religious and they have no problem with me.

My freinds and I are very serious in what we believe, therefore we learn about it as much as possible. It's like a Christian youth wanting to learn about jesus, he reads and reaserches him, that is what we do with Asatru.

Thank you for being nice.

 

[talitha]

I've been very busy with Christmas stuff - it's wonderful to worship Jesus and celebrate His birth with friends and family - and I came back here to say some things - but I find that Adstar has said most of them, and very well. Thanks!

Truth is truth, regardless of who accepts it amd who does not. God is love, and Jesus and His Kingdom are the greatest expressions of love this world could ever see....

Emmanuel......
tal

 

[SimpleDevotion]

Here's what I believe in more detail - probably some of this you have not heard before.

The Bible says that Jesus is the Lamb "Slain from the foundation of the World." You can't get much older than that. His sacrifice at a precisely selected time in history was God's plan from The Beginning.

Helel, aka Lucifer, aka Satan, etc., was cast out of Heaven along with 1/3 of the angelic host because they rebelled against God; they began to inhabit this planet.

This group of fallen angels knew something of the plan of God, and before humans were ever created, they began to lay in place signs and "evidences" to deceive us and lead us astray from the truth. This was the real beginning of the Paganistic and Shamanistic religions.

God made a place and a way for us to live on this planet, and He set us upon it intending to use us to destroy the works of His would-be rival, whom He will cast into the Lake of Fire along with his followers both angelic and human.

In the meantime God welcomes all who seek Him. Now that the Lamb has been slain in the natural realm, He has become the sole mediator between the one and only real God and all of mankind.

Paganistic and Shamanistic religions are not the only deceptive religions out there. They were originated by spirits; other religions were originated by mankind.

may the Lord Jesus bless you
tal

I feel kind of sorry for them. They are bound by evil spirits, decieved into believing their false religion. The pagans I have met in my life were unfortunately going down the downward spiral. They were in an abusive relationship. Magic thrown at each other. Physical abuse, including one incident that resulted in a miscarraige. Bitterness, hostility. Total irresponsibility. And all this happened within three months of dating. The girl even claimed she was on Springer, and while I haven't seen that episode because I don't watch the show, she was screwed up enough that I'm inclined to believe it.

You know, I have some pagan friends too, and they seem to be very nice and sensible people. I know that every religion probably has some very nice and some very mean members of it, yet, are many pagans that you know as nice and (this is a little mis-worded probably) knowledgable about their religion as you are?

Yes, of course there are going to be members of Paganism, and any other religion, for that matter, who make a mess of their lives. I believe, however, that the morals and standards of Paganism are higher than most Christians realize; much like Christianity, Paganism encourages its members to uphold kind and generous will. The individuals are the ones who sometimes fall short.

Say what you want about Paganism--call it false and sinful--but please realize the religion forbids acts of violence and abuse. If it turns out that Christianity is the correct religion, I cannot imagine that Paganism could have possibly been created by an evil such as the Christian devil. If it is false, I do not believe Satan conceived it, only well wishing people. How could any being that is completely apathetic towards suffering, pitiless, filled with pure evil, and full with pride bare a religion that is both humble and nonviolent.

That you believe in the same God I do, only you believe it's more than one and you have different ways of expressing your faith in Him (or to you, them). Then again, I pretty much believe that about any religion (except for the "plural God" part when the religion believes in only one God).

Interesting concept. Perhaps the roots of both Christianity and Paganism lie in the pull that the members of both religions felt towards the same supernatural force(s). Only one religion can be completely correct, but maybe the we do share a bond and a tug to the same force(s) whether that which has borne both happens be described best by Paganism, Christianity, or of some other religion.

 

[talitha]

Yes, of course there are going to be members of Paganism, and any other religion, for that matter, who make a mess of their lives.

Yes, but this has little or no bearing on the validity of a religion.

I believe, however, that the morals and standards of Paganism are higher than most Christians realize; much like Christianity, Paganism encourages its members to uphold kind and generous will. The individuals are the ones who sometimes fall short.

Say what you want about Paganism--call it false and sinful--but please realize the religion forbids acts of violence and abuse.

Again, you are right, but again, the morals and standards are not what make the religion valid.

If it turns out that Christianity is the correct religion, I cannot imagine that Paganism could have possibly been created by an evil such as the Christian devil.

If you were the devil and wanted to deceive people, don't you think it would be smart to create deceptions that appear beautiful, desirable, and pleasant and that seem to have what it takes to make a person wise and discerning and powerful? (hopefully that sounds familiar....)

By the way, isn't the word "Paganism" rather broad? Are you talking about the Norse mythology espoused by the OP?