Pagans

[Yggdrasil]

I cannot comment on this as a source has not been provided. I attempted to Google the previous reference to Constantine, but nothing specific came up.


I am not certain what specific verses/events you are referring to, but as a general answer I don't think that "love" and "wrath" are mutually exclusive. What you are bringing up is a bit of a lengthy topic; I'll deal with a little bit of it below.


Actually, this specific phrase is not found in the Bible. Some have inferred it from the Gospels, but they are anachronizing a bit.


Not exactly. I believe that some people who are not Christians may be saved, if they honestly haven't heard or don't know key facts about the Gospel (and of course not everyone who is a "Christian" will be saved, for personal reasons or otherwise).


Or God the Father, who transcends creation, has condescended to send his only begotten Son to earth for his glory and "that [we] might have life, and have it more abundantly". This Son was not born into an honorable family by society's standards, defied the Pharisees and others who "strained at a gnat but swallowed a camel", and suffered the ignominity of the cross, ultimately triumphing over death as the God-man through the resurrection. We should follow the Lord and take up our cross for our own benefit, and if we do not then he will leave us to our own designs, but in the end we will experience eternal shame because we have denied the free gift offered us by the living God.

So, you pretty much proved my point of "worship me or else". If god only saves a certian people just because they pay attention to him more and do what he wants and preaches love for everyone, it's pretty hypocritical of him to call him the savior of man when he it's a "members only" club. Your god seems discriminitory.

 

[Scholar in training]

So, you pretty much proved my point of "worship me or else".

I did no such thing.

If god only saves a certian people just because they pay attention to him more and do what he wants and preaches love for everyone, it's pretty hypocritical of him to call him the savior of man when he it's a "members only" club.

God did not establish a "members only" club. As I have said, I believe it is possible for non-Christians to be saved under certain circumstances, and it is possible for "Christians" to not be saved under certain circumstances. So far your point is already rather moot, but then I went on to explain that the very fact that God is offering us salvation is a condensation. As St. Seraphim once explained, God, although he transcends creation, is willing to participate and be active in it (even though we have sinned!). This is demonstrated by (among other things) the fact that it pleased the Father to send his Son to "tabernacle among us". He did what he has done out of love, and he will continue to offer his grace out of love. But if someone still refuses this offer for whatever reason -- especially if they accept the evidence for who Christ is and what he has accomplished -- then why should God put up with them? In light of what God has already done, they are being very ungrateful.

Your god seems discriminitory.

Yes, he is, if by "discriminatory" you mean he judges people based on what is in their heart. However if by "discriminatory" you mean the popular definition of racist/sexist/etc. then no, God is not "discriminatory".

 

[Adstar]

Hello again Yggdrasil

Well, there's one thing. Pagans do not believe in the Christain devil. He does not exist in our faith or world. That is one of the biggest misconceptions about Paganism. We DO NOT belive or worship the devil in anyway. And no, Satanism is not paganism.

Belief in satan or non belief in satan means very little. satan does not need people to believe in him and worship him to have victory over them. Paganisim leads people away fom the truth of God and therefore serves the objective of satan. Wether paganisim aknowledges satan or not is not the issue. Something is either for the Will of God or it is not. Be that an individuel or a religion or whatever.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Yggdrasil

I find it very insulting that you think i'm being decieved into what I believe. Believe in some boogie man who sends people to hell if you want, he just doesn't exist in our faith.

Why should you feel insulted? You say yourself you think that the OT is just a book full of moral stories and that Jesus was just a philosopher.... You think Christians are decieved right. Thing is i do not feel insulted when you declare that you think i am decieved. Now why is that? Why do i feel sorrow because of your belief that i am decieved and you feel insult that i believe you are decieved? Should you not feel pity for me? What Spirit dwells in you and what Spirit dwells in me?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Yggdrasil

The only reason Christianity is as big as it is, is because it was adopted by one of the largest militaries in the world(Rome) and was spread through forceful means.

Yggdrasil you should read the Words of the founder of my faith The Messiah Jesus, you will clearly see that He never called upon His followers to take up arms to enforce belief in God.

It is foolishness to think that anyone can be forced to believe in God or accept the Messiah Jesus as their Lord and Savor. Oh yes you can get most people to mouth creeds like robots if you use force and make their lives hell if they don't, but these people do not really believe in their hearts. Not one true follower of the Messiah Jesus has been forced to accept Him as Messiah, nor has any true follower of Jesus ever used force to make others accept Jesus. Accepting Jesus is a personal decision.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[12volt_man]

Congratulations on being close minded.

But I'm not closed minded.

In fact, I was just booted out of onlinebaptist.com precisely because I stick up for those of other beliefs.

Jesus Christ is the only way for sinful man to be reconciled to a Holy and Righteous God.

Any belief system that teaches otherwise, is deadly.

I know that this is 2005 and we're not supposed to believe that there is any sort of exclusivity among beliefs or that any belief could possibly be *GASP* wrong, but no less an authority than Jesus Christ, Himself, told us, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by Me."

"No man". Not "some men". Not "no man except for those who are really sincere". No man.

I fully respect and will defend your right to believe whatever you want to, but the bottom line is that we really don't have to be experts on paganism to know that it is at odds with what Jesus teaches.

 

[Yggdrasil]

I did no such thing.


God did not establish a "members only" club. As I have said, I believe it is possible for non-Christians to be saved under certain circumstances, and it is possible for "Christians" to not be saved under certain circumstances. So far your point is already rather moot, but then I went on to explain that the very fact that God is offering us salvation is a condensation. As St. Seraphim once explained, God, although he transcends creation, is willing to participate and be active in it (even though we have sinned!). This is demonstrated by (among other things) the fact that it pleased the Father to send his Son to "tabernacle among us". He did what he has done out of love, and he will continue to offer his grace out of love. But if someone still refuses this offer for whatever reason -- especially if they accept the evidence for who Christ is and what he has accomplished -- then why should God put up with them? In light of what God has already done, they are being very ungrateful.


Yes, he is, if by "discriminatory" you mean he judges people based on what is in their heart. However if by "discriminatory" you mean the popular definition of racist/sexist/etc. then no, God is not "discriminatory".

In discriminatory I meant, he only saves the people that worship him.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Hello again Yggdrasil




Belief in satan or non belief in satan means very little. satan does not need people to believe in him and worship him to have victory over them. Paganisim leads people away fom the truth of God and therefore serves the objective of satan. Wether paganisim aknowledges satan or not is not the issue. Something is either for the Will of God or it is not. Be that an individuel or a religion or whatever.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I just can't really argue with you really....Since we are both debating out of beliefe and I simply do not believe in Satan.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Yggdrasil




Why should you feel insulted? You say yourself you think that the OT is just a book full of moral stories and that Jesus was just a philosopher.... You think Christians are decieved right. Thing is i do not feel insulted when you declare that you think i am decieved. Now why is that? Why do i feel sorrow because of your belief that i am decieved and you feel insult that i believe you are decieved? Should you not feel pity for me? What Spirit dwells in you and what Spirit dwells in me?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I do not think you have been decieved. Believe in what you wish. Just don'y go telling me that everything my lif eis based on is lies. Becaue to me and many others, our faith is real, and so is yours to you.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Yggdrasil




Yggdrasil you should read the Words of the founder of my faith The Messiah Jesus, you will clearly see that He never called upon His followers to take up arms to enforce belief in God.

It is foolishness to think that anyone can be forced to believe in God or accept the Messiah Jesus as their Lord and Savor. Oh yes you can get most people to mouth creeds like robots if you use force and make their lives hell if they don't, but these people do not really believe in their hearts. Not one true follower of the Messiah Jesus has been forced to accept Him as Messiah, nor has any true follower of Jesus ever used force to make others accept Jesus. Accepting Jesus is a personal decision.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I go to a Catholic school (not by choice) so I am quite familiar with Jesus. I've read the bible and Torah twice each. So, i'm not ignorant of your god.

Now, I did not say that Jesus himself forced christianity on others, it was the PEOPLE who did it. Since humans always force their ideals on each other, not Jesus.

Plus, I think you would start believing in something pretty fast if you were threatened with death or exile. You have to put it in the context of their times, not ours.

 

[Yggdrasil]

But I'm not closed minded.

In fact, I was just booted out of onlinebaptist.com precisely because I stick up for those of other beliefs.

Jesus Christ is the only way for sinful man to be reconciled to a Holy and Righteous God.

Any belief system that teaches otherwise, is deadly.

I know that this is 2005 and we're not supposed to believe that there is any sort of exclusivity among beliefs or that any belief could possibly be *GASP* wrong, but no less an authority than Jesus Christ, Himself, told us, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by Me."

"No man". Not "some men". Not "no man except for those who are really sincere". No man.

I fully respect and will defend your right to believe whatever you want to, but the bottom line is that we really don't have to be experts on paganism to know that it is at odds with what Jesus teaches.

I also have no problem with what you worship. If it makes you happy and gives you meaning in life, go for it.

What I am saying is, is that a lot of christians are very narrow minded and their beliefs get in the way of their reasoning.

I believe in what I beleive because it was the old religion of my people, far outdating the abrahmic traditions by at least 2,000 years. If i'm wrong in what I worship and therefore sent to "hell" because of it, then so be it. All the interesting people are absent form heaven anyways. ;-)

 

[12volt_man]

In discriminatory I meant, he only saves the people that worship him.

But why does He save them? How does He save them?

Does God save those who worship Him or do they worship Him because they are saved?

The Bible tells us that we're not saved because we worship God, but by virtue of Christ's atonement on the cross on our behalf.

 

[12volt_man]

I also have no problem with what you worship. If it makes you happy and gives you meaning in life, go for it.

But do you have to be so closed minded about it?

What I am saying is, is that a lot of christians are very narrow minded and their beliefs get in the way of their reasoning.

I believe in what I beleive because it was the old religion of my people, far outdating the abrahmic traditions by at least 2,000 years.

How is something true simply by virtue of it's age?

If i'm wrong in what I worship and therefore sent to "hell" because of it, then so be it.

No one is sent to Hell because of who they worship. People go to Hell because they're seperated from God by sin and have refused God's offer of reconciliation.

All the interesting people are absent form heaven anyways. ;-)

It's not as though you'll know them in Hell.

 

[Scholar in training]

I believe in what I beleive because it was the old religion of my people, far outdating the abrahmic traditions by at least 2,000 years.

Age itself doesn't determine the validity of a belief. Why bring it up?

In discriminatory I meant, he only saves the people that worship him.

I believe you're ignoring the counterevidence. Regardless, on what basis do you believe people should be saved?

 

[Yggdrasil]

But why does He save them? How does He save them?

Does God save those who worship Him or do they worship Him because they are saved?

The Bible tells us that we're not saved because we worship God, but by virtue of Christ's atonement on the cross on our behalf.

The point remains, he only saves those who give him attention.

 

[12volt_man]

The point remains, he only saves those who give him attention.

If a man is drowning and I throw him a rope, he can only be saved if he gives attention to the rope.

 

[Yggdrasil]

But do you have to be so closed minded about it?

How am I closed minded about it? I;m fine with what yuo worship, in fact, I support it.




How is something true simply by virtue of it's age?

It's more about tradition and the test of time.


No one is sent to Hell because of who they worship. People go to Hell because they're seperated from God by sin and have refused God's offer of reconciliation.

Isn't it said that all other gods that are worshipped and are not the LORD a extremly sinful deed? So, people are sent to hell for believing in something else. Jesus said it himself "I am the way."

It's not as though you'll know them in Hell.

We don't even know what hell is, if it even exists. But if it does, it's probably not a place, but a state of mind.

 

[Yggdrasil]

If a man is drowning and I throw him a rope, he can only be saved if he gives attention to the rope.

Why are we repeating ourselves? God, as stated clearly in the bible, saves his flock (people who worship him), the rest are out of luck.

 

[12volt_man]

How am I closed minded about it? I;m fine with what yuo worship, in fact, I support it.

Does this mean that you will quit belittling it?

It's more about tradition and the test of time.

Again, how do these things show that something is true?

Isn't it said that all other gods that are worshipped and are not the LORD a extremly sinful deed? So, people are sent to hell for believing in something else.

All sin seperates us from God.

Jesus said it himself "I am the way."(sic)

Yes, He did. Now we have to ask ourselves whether or not this is a true statement.

We don't even know what hell is, if it even exists. But if it does, it's probably not a place, but a state of mind

Actually, Hell is a real, literal place and we do know quite a bit about it.

 

[12volt_man]

Why are we repeating ourselves? God, as stated clearly in the bible, saves his flock (people who worship him), the rest are out of luck.

No, actually, the Bible tells us that God saves sinners who turn from their sin and put their faith in Christ's atonement on the cross.

It also does not tell us that "the rest are out of luck".

In fact, Paul tells us in his letter to the Romans that God has made provisions for those who have never heard the Gospel or who do not have the ability or opportunity to respond to the Gospel.