Pagans

[Sketcher]

I believe the Word of My God on paganism:

Romans 1
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man -- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever.

I believe this too.

Also, I feel kind of sorry for them. They are bound by evil spirits, decieved into believing their false religion. The pagans I have met in my life were unfortunately going down the downward spiral. They were in an abusive relationship. Magic thrown at each other. Physical abuse, including one incident that resulted in a miscarraige. Bitterness, hostility. Total irresponsibility. And all this happened within three months of dating. The girl even claimed she was on Springer, and while I haven't seen that episode because I don't watch the show, she was screwed up enough that I'm inclined to believe it.

 

[Letalis]

That you believe in the same God I do, only you believe it's more than one and you have different ways of expressing your faith in Him (or to you, them). Then again, I pretty much believe that about any religion (except for the "plural God" part when the religion believes in only one God).

Where do you get that idea?

 

[Yggdrasil]

I believe this too.

Also, I feel kind of sorry for them. They are bound by evil spirits, decieved into believing their false religion. The pagans I have met in my life were unfortunately going down the downward spiral. They were in an abusive relationship. Magic thrown at each other. Physical abuse, including one incident that resulted in a miscarraige. Bitterness, hostility. Total irresponsibility. And all this happened within three months of dating. The girl even claimed she was on Springer, and while I haven't seen that episode because I don't watch the show, she was screwed up enough that I'm inclined to believe it.

Please do not pass judgement on all of us just because one was crazy. There are pagans everywhere. It might be your next door neighbor, one of your freinds....we're all normal, just like you.

Evil spirits? I'm sorry, but I worship no evil spirits, nor do I cast any harmful spells. You've been brainwashed by the christian right.

Also, false religion? Last time I checked most of the world was polytheistic unto a philosopher named Jesus came along and people were pretty much forced to convert under the militeristic boot of the Roman empire.

 

[Sketcher]

Please do not pass judgement on all of us just because one was crazy. There are pagans everywhere. It might be your next door neighbor, one of your freinds....we're all normal, just like you.

TWO screwed up people, thank you. The Wiccans I met were more normal.

Evil spirits? I'm sorry, but I worship no evil spirits, nor do I cast any harmful spells. You've been brainwashed by the christian right.

I'm a member of the Christian right. The spirits you do worship happen to be evil, whether or not you realize it. You may not be casting any spells of evil intent now, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist in your religion.

Also, false religion? Last time I checked most of the world was polytheistic unto a philosopher named Jesus came along and people were pretty much forced to convert under the militeristic boot of the Roman empire.

Christians converted people in an exclusively peaceful manner at all levels of society for roughly the first 350 years of the faith. We had most of the Roman Empire converted BEFORE Theodocious, thank you very much. And during that time, it was the pagans who persecuted the Christians quite brutally.

Besides, the number of adherents does not make a religion true.

 

[talitha]

I find it very interesting that Yggdrasil has not responded to nor acknowledged my second and third posts.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Neither Adstar nor I implied in any way that Pagans believe in the "Christian devil" (wow, how oxymoronic can you get - Christian devil? lol). But according to what I believe(and I think he believes), the devil exists in the one and only version of actual reality that there is, whether you believe in him or not, and what many of us are saying is that he has concocted an elaborate and pretty successful (so far) plan to deceive as many people as possible to the point that they will not believe what is actually true but instead will choose to believe false things that do not yield life.

blessings in Christ
tal

I find it very insulting that you think i'm being decieved into what I believe. Believe in some boogie man who sends people to hell if you want, he just doesn't exist in our faith.

 

[Yggdrasil]

TWO screwed up people, thank you. The Wiccans I met were more normal.

Still, that does not give anyone the right to judge everyone of a certain faith just because they met some bad apples. It's like me judging all christians off of what certain morons like Pat Robertson says.

I'm a member of the Christian right. The spirits you do worship happen to be evil, whether or not you realize it. You may not be casting any spells of evil intent now, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist in your religion.

What exactly is the definition of evil? Is evil even real, since evil and good are purely subjective? I'm sorry, but there are no evil spirits in my faith. The stereotype the far right has put out about Pagans is pretty much hate speech.

Christians converted people in an exclusively peaceful manner at all levels of society for roughly the first 350 years of the faith. We had most of the Roman Empire converted BEFORE Theodocious, thank you very much. And during that time, it was the pagans who persecuted the Christians quite brutally.

HA. See: The crusades, salem witch trails and the Inquitision. All involved violent means of convertion and oppression.

Besides, the number of adherents does not make a religion true.

The only reason Christianity is as big as it is, is because it was adopted by one of the largest militaries in the world(Rome) and was spread through forceful means.

 

[12volt_man]

And what is your knowledge in Paganism? If any?

Does paganism teach that Jesus Christ is the Unblemished Lamb of God, who died to purchase the atonement for our sins and to reconcile us to God, when we were lost in sin and unable to redeem ourselves?

 

[12volt_man]

I find it very insulting that you think i'm being decieved into what I believe. Believe in some boogie man who sends people to hell if you want, he just doesn't exist in our faith.

Nor in ours.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Does paganism teach that Jesus Christ is the Unblemished Lamb of God, who died to purchase the atonement for our sins and to reconcile us to God, when we were lost in sin and unable to redeem ourselves?

No. My faith does not see Jesus as a savior.

 

[Scholar in training]

The only reason Christianity is as big as it is, is because it was adopted by one of the largest militaries in the world(Rome) and was spread through forceful means.

A moment ago I believe you were criticizing a user for supposedly mischaracterizing paganism, and now you are attempting to mischaracterize Christianity based on the actions of certain "Christians"?

Christianity began to spread throughout the Roman empire (and in fact beyond it) before Constantine. All Constantine did was make it the official religion of the empire, and order many pagan temples closed. Even then the orders were usually ignored, force was rarely used, and I don't know of any accounts that people were executed for their beliefs under Constantine. It is quite humorous that some people claim Christians "destroyed" all pagan and/or anti-Christian literature when we still have knowledge of many (long-dead) pagan religions today. How much do you know about the three fates? The nine muses? Cerberus? Hades? Zeus? Chiron? Achilles? Homer? Indeed, many Christians in the scholastic period and on made allusions to this kind of material (from a Christian perspective, of course). Dante and others come to mind.

 

[Scholar in training]

In fact, almost all Christian holidays and beliefs come from the Nordic belief system because when the Romans started to spread the word of your god, they adapted to our celebrations. I.E. they plopped "Christmas" on Yule and so forth. Christmas trees and santa claus have their roots in Paganism, not Christianity.

These "adaptations" represent ideological victory, and draw attention away from pagan tradition to Christian tradition. Of course, adopting practices like using Christmas trees and adopting actual pagan theology are two different things.

As an aside, I am not certain if Santa Claus was adopted from paganism. The origin that I am most familiar with is that Santa Claus was based off of St. Nicholas, a Christian from the third or fourth century.

 

[Yggdrasil]

A moment ago I believe you were criticizing a user for supposedly mischaracterizing paganism, and now you are attempting to mischaracterize Christianity based on the actions of certain "Christians"?

Christianity began to spread throughout the Roman empire (and in fact beyond it) before Constantine. All Constantine did was make it the official religion of the empire, and order many pagan temples closed. Even then the orders were usually ignored, force was rarely used, and I don't know of any accounts that people were executed for their beliefs under Constantine. It is quite humorous that some people claim Christians "destroyed" all pagan and/or anti-Christian literature when we still have knowledge of many (long-dead) pagan religions today. How much do you know about the three fates? The nine muses? Cerberus? Hades? Zeus? Chiron? Achilles? Homer? Indeed, many Christians in the scholastic period and on made allusions to this kind of material (from a Christian perspective, of course). Dante and others come to mind.

I'd say Charlemadne chopping down Irminsul, the holy tree of the Pagan saxons, then assasinating well over 5,000 pagan Saxon noblemen would be called destroying some Pagan culture.

Also, Constentine burned down/destroyed almost all Pagan temples in Rome, and if Pagans tried to resist they were usually either crucified or sent into exile.

 

[12volt_man]

No. My faith does not see Jesus as a savior.

Then there's no point asking what we know about it. That's all we need to know.

 

[Scholar in training]

I'd say Charlemadne chopping down Irminsul, the holy tree of the Pagan saxons, then assasinating well over 5,000 pagan Saxon noblemen would be called destroying some Pagan culture.

Source?

 

[Yggdrasil]

Then there's no point asking what we know about it. That's all we need to know.

Congratulations on being close minded.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Source?

It's a pretty well known fact that it happened. Look in any history book about European religion. Him chopping the saxon holy tree down was one of the reasons the candinavians stopped warring against the Danes, therefore joininf forces to wage war against France.

 

[Disippelen]

Hello. I am a proud Pagan and I'm wondering what are your TRUE AND HONEST opinions on Paganism is.

As a Christian myself, I do believe that all other beliefs, leads to conviction on Judgement day.

All men are sinners, and so deserves eternal hell. By believing in Jesus, your sins are washed away, and you will go to Heaven.

So I don't distinguish "paganism" from other beliefs and views..

Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Norse paganism, African animists, Siberian paganism, Indian (native American) paganism etc. none of them leads to salvation.


When you say that you are "Pagan", what kind of paganism to you refer to??
In Scandinavia you have the Norse Paganism, that were strong here during the Age of the Vikings.. today Norse paganism is strong among Neo-Nazis, but also among others..

When Christianity arrived in Scandinavia during the 9th century, (it came here by Irish monks that were taken as slaves by the Vikings), it gradually replaced Norse paganism because people that believed in Thor and Odin, gradually realised that there was no point in sacrificing to them.. they never listened.. people who accepted Christianity quickly found out that God really listened to their prayers..

it should be noted that the Christian belief was used by political groups when they took power in Scandinavia, and that these political leaders "christianised" the people here... this is rubbish.. no one can be forced to believe in Jesus.. it is impossible.. I can report that in Norway today, most Christians live in the southwest and west.. which is the same placed that Irish monks landed and preached the gospel 1200 years ago.. the north and east, which was mostly "christianised" by the sword, there are considerably fewer Christians even now...

 

[Yggdrasil]

As a Christian myself, I do believe that all other beliefs, leads to conviction on Judgement day.

All men are sinners, and so deserves eternal hell. By believing in Jesus, your sins are washed away, and you will go to Heaven.

So I don't distinguish "paganism" from other beliefs and views..

Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Norse paganism, African animists, Siberian paganism, Indian (native American) paganism etc. none of them leads to salvation.


When you say that you are "Pagan", what kind of paganism to you refer to??
In Scandinavia you have the Norse Paganism, that were strong here during the Age of the Vikings.. today Norse paganism is strong among Neo-Nazis, but also among others..

When Christianity arrived in Scandinavia during the 9th century, (it came here by Irish monks that were taken as slaves by the Vikings), it gradually replaced Norse paganism because people that believed in Thor and Odin, gradually realised that there was no point in sacrificing to them.. they never listened.. people who accepted Christianity quickly found out that God really listened to their prayers..

it should be noted that the Christian belief was used by political groups when they took power in Scandinavia, and that these political leaders "christianised" the people here... this is rubbish.. no one can be forced to believe in Jesus.. it is impossible.. I can report that in Norway today, most Christians live in the southwest and west.. which is the same placed that Irish monks landed and preached the gospel 1200 years ago.. the north and east, which was mostly "christianised" by the sword, there are considerably fewer Christians even now...

I follow Norse Heathenism. And no, I am not a nazi.

When missionaries came to Parts of Europe and Scandinavia, they mostly tricked the people into believing in Christ. The Nordic peoples, as you might know, follow the white sun disc, and it's central to their faith. The missionaries did not call him Christ, but "Kvitekrist" (White Jesus), with this, they linked him to the White sun disc and therefore made them think he was important to them through this connection.

Also, and I mean no offense with this, but your Christ seems to contradict himself a lot. He preaches love and slavation for all! But then turns around and doesn't save his own "children" just because they follow a different faith? Is he not the great forgiver? Did he not say numerous times in your Bible that He hates the sin but loves the sinner? Wouldn't that mean he would save people regardless of their culture or religion? So it's basically, "worship me, or else".

 

[Scholar in training]

The Nordic peoples, as you might know, follow the white sun disc, and it's central to their faith. The missionaries did not call him Christ, but "Kvitekrist" (White Jesus), with this, they linked him to the White sun disc and therefore made them think he was important to them through this connection.

I cannot comment on this as a source has not been provided. I attempted to Google the previous reference to Constantine, but nothing specific came up.

Also, and I mean no offense with this, but your Christ seems to contradict himself a lot. He preaches love and slavation for all! But then turns around and doesn't save his own "children" just because they follow a different faith?

I am not certain what specific verses/events you are referring to, but as a general answer I don't think that "love" and "wrath" are mutually exclusive. What you are bringing up is a bit of a lengthy topic; I'll deal with a little bit of it below.

Did he not say numerous times in your Bible that He hates the sin but loves the sinner?

Actually, this specific phrase is not found in the Bible. Some have inferred it from the Gospels, but they are anachronizing a bit.

Wouldn't that mean he would save people regardless of their culture or religion?

Not exactly. I believe that some people who are not Christians may be saved, if they honestly haven't heard or don't know key facts about the Gospel (and of course not everyone who is a "Christian" will be saved, for personal reasons or otherwise).

So it's basically, "worship me, or else".

Or God the Father, who transcends creation, has condescended to send his only begotten Son to earth for his glory and "that [we] might have life, and have it more abundantly". This Son was not born into an honorable family by society's standards, defied the Pharisees and others who "strained at a gnat but swallowed a camel", and suffered the ignominity of the cross, ultimately triumphing over death as the God-man through the resurrection. We should follow the Lord and take up our cross for our own benefit, and if we do not then he will leave us to our own designs, but in the end we will experience eternal shame because we have denied the free gift offered us by the living God.