Pagan holidays mixing with Christian ones

[HARK!]

He just wants to be contrary. He has all the answers so he is unteachable. He isn't going to let any silly facts change what he knows to be true.

Silly facts don't seem to line up. I'd rather just stick with YHWH's truth.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Passover has its' origins in YHWH's Pesach. Easter does not. Do you celebrate Easter as YHWH commands Israel, FOREVER?

If so, then you might begin to have a valid point. If you are celebrating YHWH's Moed, on the wrong day, with egg laying bunnies; then your argument is childish.

A Moed is an appointment with YHWH.

If you make an appointment with your doctor, then not show; then he calls you to see what happened. You tell him that you did keep his appointment, when you grabbed a basket, filled it with fake grass, fake eggs, and chocolate bunny statues, with sprinkles; he might have you committed for a psychological evaluation.

If you want to argue that Pascha (which is the feast called Easter in English) has no connection to the Jewish Passover you would need to explain the particularities of what the earliest sources say. Second century Christians such as Melito Mention the feast, we have an entire homily by him which compares the Old Passover of the Exodus to the New Passover (pascha) in Christ. The Shadow and the fulfillment. Melito himself was a Quatrodeciman which meant he celebrated it on the 14th of Nissan the resurrection of the Lord. We also have Eusebius' account of Ireneaus and the Bishop of Rome, how the feast was celebrated differently in the East and West and this was cause for concern for the Bishop of Rome who eventually tolerated the Eastern Church's practice.

What you need to explain is this, if Pascha has no connection to the Jewish Passover, why did Early Christians like Melito deliberately compare it to the Old Passover of the Jews? Why did the early Christians call it Pascha and not Easter (the earliest mention of the word Easter is from Bede as has been pointed out several times). Why are there no Pagan analogues with their own feast which changed due to the passage of the moon?

To me the answer is obvious. Early Christians refocused the Passover practice they had received to be around and in acknowledgement of Christ and the New Covenant he gave. To suggest they borrowed from Paganism this practice is to actually ignore the evidence and simply be petulant.

 

[prodromos]

Silly facts don't seem to line up.

Where don't they line up? Be specific.

 

[prodromos]

Passover has its' origins in YHWH's Pesach. Easter does not.

Easter is the celebration of the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Go to any Christian Church at Easter and you will hear nothing about bunnies or eggs or fertility goddesses except in the rare case that the pastor might happen to be preaching against secular aspects of the celebration, and you probably still wont hear about fertility goddesses, since they don't even get a mention in the secular hijack of the feast days.

 

[Eloy Craft]

As a human being Jesus had an ordinary human soul. This is as we confess in the Definition of Chalcedon, that Christ, in regards to His humanity, was of a rational soul and body, that is, the same as the rest of us.

A glorified soul is a rational soul why would you think otherwise? Jesus had an ordinary soul....and why would you think a glorified human soul is not an ordinary soul? Isn't it ordinary souls that are beatified? St Thomas Aquinas teaches that Christ's human nature did not require merit to be united to divine nature. That is, like all of us, we must merit( accept grace) to attain union with God, not so for Christ who's human nature was united to God from it's beginning. I paraphrase and there is much better wording than mine. The Summa states that Christ's soul is created glorified. Christ saw God face to face from the beginning. Jesus' human nature was conceived possessing the beatific vision.

The light of the transfiguration has always been understood to be the light of Christ's own Divinity, whereby His eternal and uncreated Deity shown forth. Theologians have consistently referred to this as the Uncreated Light, because it is the light of God, God's own Divinity which is eternal and uncreated. The apostles did not behold Christ's human soul, they beheld a tiny glimmer of the Divinity of their

I understand this is a traditional understanding. To insist that this teaching be held to it's traditional expression puts an obstacle to deeper understanding. It's a teaching that can be more deeply understood and doesn't violate it's original meaning.

The Divine nature united to the human nature at the Incarnation. That union beatifies the soul at it's creation. Likewise, at the instant this beatified soul is infused into the body, the human Person is divinized at conception. With that understanding of the Incarnation, the light of the Transfiguration can be seen as both, uncreated and radiating from the created soul.

Just as the glorified human creature that reaches Beatitude by a life that ends in friendship with God, is 'divinized' when it enters into the Beatific Vision and then radiates uncreated light. The Light of the Transfiguration can be seen as the uncreated light that Jesus' human soul radiated. Light that originates from the uncreated Word of God or Divine Nature, is radiated through the created human nature of Jesus, or His glorified body and soul, at the Transfiguration when He let His glory be seen.

 

[HARK!]

If you want to argue that Pascha (which is the feast called Easter in English) has no connection to the Jewish Passover you would need to explain the particularities of what the earliest sources say.

If you want to argue that Pascha (which is the feast called Easter in English) has no connection to the Jewish Passover you would need to explain the particularities of what the earliest sources say. Second century Christians such as Melito Mention the feast, we have an entire homily by him which compares the Old Passover of the Exodus to the New Passover (pascha) in Christ. The Shadow and the fulfillment. Melito himself was a Quatrodeciman which meant he celebrated it on the 14th of Nissan the resurrection of the Lord. We also have Eusebius' account of Ireneaus and the Bishop of Rome, how the feast was celebrated differently in the East and West and this was cause for concern for the Bishop of Rome who eventually tolerated the Eastern Church's practice.

What you need to explain is this, if Pascha has no connection to the Jewish Passover, why did Early Christians like Melito deliberately compare it to the Old Passover of the Jews? Why did the early Christians call it Pascha and not Easter (the earliest mention of the word Easter is from Bede as has been pointed out several times). Why are there no Pagan analogues with their own feast which changed due to the passage of the moon?

To me the answer is obvious. Early Christians refocused the Passover practice they had received to be around and in acknowledgement of Christ and the New Covenant he gave. To suggest they borrowed from Paganism this practice is to actually ignore the evidence and simply be petulant.

Devarim 13:1 CJB

Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

Leviticus 23
Leviticus 23World English Bible (WEB)

4 “‘These are the set feasts of Yahweh, even holy convocations, which you shall proclaim in their appointed season. 5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening, is Yahweh’s Passover. 6 On the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread to Yahweh. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7 In the first day you shall have a holy convocation. You shall do no regular work. 8 But you shall offer an offering made by fire to Yahweh seven days. In the seventh day is a holy convocation: you shall do no regular work.’”

Eusebius' Life of Constantine, Book 3 chapter 18 records Constantine the Great as writing:

"... it appeared an unworthy thing that in the celebration of this most holy feast we should follow the practice of the Jews, who have impiously defiled their hands with enormous sin, and are, therefore, deservedly afflicted with blindness of soul. ... Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd; for we have received from our Saviour a different way."


Theodoret’s Ecclesiastical History 1.9 records The Epistle of the Emperor Constantine, concerning the matters transacted at the Council, addressed to those Bishops who were not present:

“It was, in the first place, declared improper to follow the custom of the Jews in the celebration of this holy festival, because, their hands having been stained with crime, the minds of these wretched men are necessarily blinded. … Let us, then, have nothing in common with the Jews, who are our adversaries. … avoiding all contact with that evil way. … who, after having compassed the death of the Lord, being out of their minds, are guided not by sound reason, but by an unrestrained passion, wherever their innate madness carries them. … a people so utterly depraved. … Therefore, this irregularity must be corrected, in order that we may no more have any thing in common with those parricides and the murderers of our Lord. … no single point in common with the perjury of the Jews.”

Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church, volume 3, section 79, The Time of the Easter Festival states:

"The feast of the resurrection was thenceforth required to be celebrated everywhere on a Sunday, and never on the day of the Jewish passover, but always after the fourteenth of Nisan, on the
Sunday after the first vernal full moon. The leading motive for this regulation was opposition to Judaism, which had dishonored the passover by the crucifixion of the Lord. ... At Nicaea, therefore, the Roman and Alexandrian usage with respect to Easter triumphed, and the Judaizing practice of the
Quartodecimanians, who always celebrated Passover on the fourteenth of Nisan, became thenceforth a heresy. Yet that practice continued in many parts of the East, and in the time of Epiphanius, about a.d. 400, there were many, Quartodecimanians, who, as he says, were orthodox, indeed, in doctrine, but in ritual were addicted to Jewish fables, and built upon the principle: “Cursed is every one who does not keep his passover on the fourteenth of Nisan.”

YHWH's word is a fable?


Deuteronomy 27:26
"Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying
them out."


Daniel 7:25

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He will speak words against the Most High and oppress the holy ones of the Most High. He will intend to change religious festivals and laws, and the holy ones will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time.

 

[HARK!]

Easter is the celebration of the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Go to any Christian Church at Easter and you will hear nothing about bunnies or eggs or fertility goddesses except in the rare case that the pastor might happen to be preaching against secular aspects of the celebration

Nonsense.

I've attended many churches that have provided Easter egg hunts.

Nimrod (/ˈnɪm.rɒd/;[1] Hebrew: נִמְרוֹדֿ‬, Modern Nímród, Tiberian Nímrōth Aramaic: ܢܡܪܘܕ‎ Arabic: النمرود, an-Namrood‎), a biblical figure described as a king in the land of Shinar (Assyria/Mesopotamia), was, according to the Book of Genesis and Books of Chronicles, the son of Cush, therefore the great-grandson of Noah. The Bible states that he was "a mighty hunter before the Lord

Nimrod - Wikipedia

 

[prodromos]

Nonsense.

I've attended many churches that have provided Easter egg hunts.

As part of the Church service, or as an activity for the children after the service?

Nimrod (/ˈnɪm.rɒd/;[1] Hebrew: נִמְרוֹדֿ‬, Modern Nímród, Tiberian Nímrōth Aramaic: ܢܡܪܘܕ‎ Arabic: النمرود, an-Namrood‎), a biblical figure described as a king in the land of Shinar (Assyria/Mesopotamia), was, according to the Book of Genesis and Books of Chronicles, the son of Cush, therefore the great-grandson of Noah. The Bible states that he was "a mighty hunter before the Lord

Nimrod - Wikipedia

What does this have to do with the discussion?

 

[prodromos]

YHWH's word is a fable?

What is your source?
When you post quotes from another source it is simple etiquette to post a reference or link.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Devarim 13:1 CJB

Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

Leviticus 23
Leviticus 23World English Bible (WEB)

4 “‘These are the set feasts of Yahweh, even holy convocations, which you shall proclaim in their appointed season. 5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening, is Yahweh’s Passover. 6 On the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread to Yahweh. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7 In the first day you shall have a holy convocation. You shall do no regular work. 8 But you shall offer an offering made by fire to Yahweh seven days. In the seventh day is a holy convocation: you shall do no regular work.’”

Eusebius' Life of Constantine, Book 3 chapter 18 records Constantine the Great as writing:

"... it appeared an unworthy thing that in the celebration of this most holy feast we should follow the practice of the Jews, who have impiously defiled their hands with enormous sin, and are, therefore, deservedly afflicted with blindness of soul. ... Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd; for we have received from our Saviour a different way."


Theodoret’s Ecclesiastical History 1.9 records The Epistle of the Emperor Constantine, concerning the matters transacted at the Council, addressed to those Bishops who were not present:

“It was, in the first place, declared improper to follow the custom of the Jews in the celebration of this holy festival, because, their hands having been stained with crime, the minds of these wretched men are necessarily blinded. … Let us, then, have nothing in common with the Jews, who are our adversaries. … avoiding all contact with that evil way. … who, after having compassed the death of the Lord, being out of their minds, are guided not by sound reason, but by an unrestrained passion, wherever their innate madness carries them. … a people so utterly depraved. … Therefore, this irregularity must be corrected, in order that we may no more have any thing in common with those parricides and the murderers of our Lord. … no single point in common with the perjury of the Jews.”

Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church, volume 3, section 79, The Time of the Easter Festival states:

"The feast of the resurrection was thenceforth required to be celebrated everywhere on a Sunday, and never on the day of the Jewish passover, but always after the fourteenth of Nisan, on the
Sunday after the first vernal full moon. The leading motive for this regulation was opposition to Judaism, which had dishonored the passover by the crucifixion of the Lord. ... At Nicaea, therefore, the Roman and Alexandrian usage with respect to Easter triumphed, and the Judaizing practice of the
Quartodecimanians, who always celebrated Passover on the fourteenth of Nisan, became thenceforth a heresy. Yet that practice continued in many parts of the East, and in the time of Epiphanius, about a.d. 400, there were many, Quartodecimanians, who, as he says, were orthodox, indeed, in doctrine, but in ritual were addicted to Jewish fables, and built upon the principle: “Cursed is every one who does not keep his passover on the fourteenth of Nisan.”

YHWH's word is a fable?


Deuteronomy 27:26
"Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying
them out."


Daniel 7:25

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He will speak words against the Most High and oppress the holy ones of the Most High. He will intend to change religious festivals and laws, and the holy ones will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time.

I'm aware of all these sources but what they don't do is explain how Pascha is a Pagan feast. I get that you think we should all be Jews, that's not the discussion of the the thread. We are talking about the origins of Easter and other liturgical traditions here.

The sources you point to in fact only demonstrate that before the rules for when Easter were settled they were clearly being practiced by some in the Church according to the Quatrodecimen model and others were following the Pascha on the Sunday following in keeping with their received way of celebrating the feast. Obviously it was on the Sunday since the Lord rose from the dead on the Sunday. Both clearly have been derived from Judaism and even in the case of the Quatrodeciman position we see in Melito that the entire emphasis of the feast was towards Christ and not the Old law. The Old Passover (even now in the Paschal liturgy) is remembered but it is not the focus, Christ is.

What I would ask you to do, is actually talk to us like we were people. Try to engage us as such and tell us why Pascha is derived from Paganism instead of clearly being derived from the Jewish Passover. (clearly they are different feasts and no one is saying they are the same). If you want to argue for us being bound to Jewish Law this is not the thread for it. I have seen nothing compelling from any of the advocate of an 'Easter is Pagan' position, only the petulant insistence that it must be Pagan, perhaps because Catholics celebrate it and anything Catholic must be evil.

 

[HARK!]

What is your source?
When you post quotes from another source it is simple etiquette to post a reference or link.

I did post a reference; but here's a link:

History of the Christian Church, Volume III: Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 311-600 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[prodromos]

I did post a reference; but here's a link:

History of the Christian Church, Volume III: Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 311-600 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

It doesn't provide a primary source for Epiphanius, so I can't see whether that is the term used by him or whether it is Schaff's translation/interpretation.

 

[HARK!]

Obviously it was on the Sunday since the Lord rose from the dead on the Sunday.

Both your postulate and your assertion are speculation at best.

Even if you were correct; it doesn't justify ignoring YHWH's instructions.

Why is Sunday called Sunday? Did you know that Constantine was a sun worshiper? His coins were inscribed with "SOLI INVICTO COMITI," or companion to the sun god, until the day he died.

What do you think of that little sun god on the back of his coin?

Speaking of which, who gave anyone authority to change YHWH's Shabbat?

 

[HARK!]

It doesn't provide a primary source for Epiphanius, so I can't see whether that is the term used by him or whether it is Schaff's translation/interpretation.

I don't have the autograph for that one, nor any of the books of the Bible for that matter. You might want to look into that; if you don't trust my scholarly source.

 

[prodromos]

Both your postulate and your assertion are speculation at best.

Actually very well supported by early Christian recordings.

Why is Sunday called Sunday? Did you know that Constantine was a sun worshiper? His coins were inscribed with "SOLI INVICTO COMITI," or companion to the sun god, until the day he died.

Greeks call the day "Κυριακή" which means "Lord's Day". Constantine's empire was by majority pagan. Christians were an only recently legalised minority. It took time for the conversion of many to the Christian faith.

What do you think of that little sun god on the back of his coin?

Constantine was a politician tasked with keeping an empire in order. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was Rome converted in a day.

Speaking of which, who gave anyone authority to change YHWH's Shabbat?

Who said anyone did?

 

[HARK!]

Actually very well supported by early Christian recordings.

Then you should have little difficulty proving it; especially if there is any truth to those recordings.

 

[HARK!]

Constantine was a politician tasked with keeping an empire in order. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was Rome converted in a day.

It doesn't appear that the Romans were necessarily the ones who were converted.


In the 5th century, Socrates Scholasticus Church History book 5 states the fact that until Constantine imposed Dies Solis (Sungod Day) on humanity, most assemblies and believers across the world at that time still kept The Sabbath even as late as 5 centuries later after Yahshua! He clearly knew that this “Sunday” worship was based in Rome on “the account of some ancient tradition”!

"Nor is there less variation in regard to religious assemblies. For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."

 

[HARK!]

Who said anyone did?

Seymour?

Episcopalian- Bishop Seymour, -Why We Keep Sunday. "We have made the change from the seventh day to the first day, from Saturday to Sunday, on the authority of the one holy Catholic Church."

Sunday Notes & Quotes : Who changed the Sabbath?

 

[HARK!]

If you want to argue that Pascha (which is the feast called Easter in English) has no connection to the Jewish Passover you would need to explain the particularities of what the earliest sources say.

"Early Christians celebrated Passover on the 14th day of the first month and a study of the dates on which Easter is celebrated will reveal that the celebration of Easter is not observed in accordance with the prescribed time for the observance of Passover. After much debate, the Nicaean council of 325 A.D. decreed that 'Easter' should be celebrated on the first Sunday after the vernal equinox. Why was so much debate necessary if 'Easter' was a tradition passed down from the Apostles?"--Richard Rives, Too Long in the Sun

The Truth On Easter

 

[prodromos]

Seymour?

Episcopalian- Bishop Seymour, -Why We Keep Sunday. "We have made the change from the seventh day to the first day, from Saturday to Sunday, on the authority of the one holy Catholic Church."

Sunday Notes & Quotes : Who changed the Sabbath?

Never heard of him. As far as the Orthodox Church is concerned, the Sabbath is still the seventh day. The Lord's day is the eighth day.