Our existence on earth is pointless

[Tree of Life]

What was the point of God putting us on earth?

Scripture teaches that history is about the glory of God. Consider this snippet from Nehemiah 9:10 - "And you made a name for yourself, as it is to this day." This is to say that the unfolding events of history are about God making a name for himself. It is through the unfolding events of history (including creation, the fall into sin, and redemption) that God displays who he is for all to see - angels and human alike.

God's covenant name in the OT is Yahweh. Yahweh is a variation on the Hebrew verb "to be" and can mean "I am". It can also mean "I will be". In the famous passage in Exodus 3:14 Moses asks God who he is and God responds: "I am who I am". This can also be translated "I am who I will be" - or, in other words, "You will see who I am as you see what I'm going to do in the Exodus". God displays who he is through the unfolding events of redemptive history.

So why history? History displays the glory of God. History is the means by which God has ordained to tell his story and reveal himself to us that we might know him.

Without history - and even without our fall into sin and God's gracious redemption of sinners - we would not know who God is. Only the fall into sin, God's gracious redemption, and the cross of Jesus Christ can reveal that our God is the just and merciful redeemer that he is.

 

[aiki]

All of you here cannot do that. You are a slave to your theology and you cannot have an honest conversation.

I'm sorry but you're one to talk. You have yet to be honest in any of the conversations in any of the threads you've started. In fact, when you encounter a poster whose answers give you serious difficulties, you put them on your ignore list. Clearly, intellectual honesty is not one of your priorities in your discussions on this site.

You can't admit you don't know the answer so you all dance around with irrelevant arguments. I consider the matter resolved.

Well, you would, wouldn't you? That's the easy way to confirm your bias: Dismiss as irrelevant all answers you receive and ignore any who show you to be in error. Resolved? Perhaps. But not in your favour.

Selah.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Scripture teaches that history is about the glory of God. Consider this snippet from Nehemiah 9:10 - "And you made a name for yourself, as it is to this day." This is to say that the unfolding events of history are about God making a name for himself. It is through the unfolding events of history (including creation, the fall into sin, and redemption) that God displays who he is for all to see - angels and human alike.

God's covenant name in the OT is Yahweh. Yahweh is a variation on the Hebrew verb "to be" and can mean "I am". It can also mean "I will be". In the famous passage in Exodus 3:14 Moses asks God who he is and God responds: "I am who I am". This can also be translated "I am who I will be" - or, in other words, "You will see who I am as you see what I'm going to do in the Exodus". God displays who he is through the unfolding events of redemptive history.

So why history? History displays the glory of God. History is the means by which God has ordained to tell his story and reveal himself to us that we might know him.

Without history - and even without our fall into sin and God's gracious redemption of sinners - we would not know who God is. Only the fall into sin, God's gracious redemption, and the cross of Jesus Christ can reveal that our God is the just and merciful redeemer that he is.

So... if I understand you correctly, you concede the point that we all would've been better off if earth's existence had been skipped over, but you believe that God created the earth and our earthly lives to give him glory through history. By "history" I can only assume you're referring to all of the genocide, mass murder, and brutalization of women and children that are occasionally taken as war booty. Josiah, during his zealous history revision, inserted many of those stories because his culture looked upon conquest favorably. If instead of that you mean to refer to the acts of Jesus when you say "history", then you are mistaken when you identify that with glory since Jesus' actions are more appropriately associated with love and humility rather than glory (he has not yet come in glory).

In conclusion, I infer that you're not only admitting that we all would've been better off had earth's existence been skipped over, but in fact the primary reason it exists is so that we may suffer in order to glorify God. Is this correct?

 

[Tree of Life]

So... if I understand you correctly, you concede the point that we all would've been better off if earth's existence had been skipped over, but you believe that God created the earth and our earthly lives to give him glory through history.

I don't think that we would be better off. I think we would be worse off. Without history we would not know God like we do. But yes, God created earth, our lives, and all of history to display his glory through the unfolding story of history. The best way to know that God is just or that God is merciful, for example, is to observe his actions in the unfolding story of history.

By "history" I can only assume you're referring to all of the genocide, mass murder, and brutalization of women and children that are occasionally taken as war booty.

By "history" I mean everything that occurs between creation and consummation - the good, bad, and ugly.

If instead of that you mean to refer to the acts of Jesus when you say "history", then you are mistaken when you identify that with glory since Jesus' actions are more appropriately associated with love and humility rather than glory (he has not yet come in glory).

Jesus' humility also displays the glory of God. God is glorified as he is seen in Christ as the humble, servant king who suffers for the sins of his people. God's weakness, as Paul says, is infinitely greater than all human strength. The glory of God is a multifaceted thing. For God's glory to be displayed means that his mercy, humility, power, knowledge, wisdom, patience, justice, etc are displayed. "Glory" is shorthand for "everything that makes God wonderful".

In conclusion, I infer that you're not only admitting that we all would've been better off had earth's existence been skipped over, but in fact the primary reason it exists is so that we may suffer in order to glorify God. Is this correct?

Our suffering does serve to glorify God. And when God is glorified we gain a knowledge of him that makes all of our suffering small in comparison. But I by no means believe that we would have been better off without history. As I said above, without history we would not know God.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Believers would prefer to have been initially created in heaven, since heaven is paradise and also they would be immediately in the presence of their Lord.

Come Judgment Day, all unbelievers will wish that they had initially been created in heaven instead of being tested on earth.

Jesus preferred to not die, as evidenced by his intense anguish in the garden shortly before his arrest. If humanity was initially created in heaven, Jesus wouldn't have had to die. If Jesus didn't have to die, there would have been no point in his incarnation on earth.

What was the point of God putting us on earth? I find that all parties involved would have preferred for earth's existence to be skipped over entirely.

If earth is for a test, I find that pointless since God is omniscient. Those who would have failed the test simply need not have been created. Indeed, many here on this forum groan about my existence.

If it's the case that we cannot inhabit heaven without first being redeemed by the blood of Jesus, and Jesus's existence on earth necessitates the existence of earth, then please explain how the angels inhabited heaven before Christ's death. Couldn't the same explanation apply to us if we were created perfect and already in heaven just as the angels?

Therefore, on Christianity, there is no point in earth's existence. So Christianity would have us believe that earth's existence is not only a pointless game, but a dangerous game with infinite risk that could be avoided entirely to the benefit of everyone if only the creator were so inclined.

On atheism, there is also no point in earth's existence. However, it is not a pointless game of Russian Roulette but rather it is the one and only opportunity at life that any of us will have.

IOW, you know better than the God that makes so little sense to free thinkers like yourself, the God you don't even believe exists, so you might as well rain on the parade of those who do believe and try to destroy their faith because misery love company?

 

[CodyFaith]

ChetSinger has offered a couple clarifications and answers but overall he cannot dispute the idea that God, believers, and unbelievers alike would have all been better off if earth's existence was skipped. No one else has really bothered to give a relevant answer other than perhaps those who are on my ignore list (I don't know or care what they have said here).

As an atheist, if you ask me about consciousness or the conditions precipitating the Big Bang, I'll be honest and admit I don't know. All of you here cannot do that. You are a slave to your theology and you cannot have an honest conversation. You can't admit you don't know the answer so you all dance around with irrelevant arguments. I consider the matter resolved.

Lol.

Or you just can't hear truth when it's presented?

But sure, insult those who answered your questions honestly. If I didn't have an answer for you, I wouldn't have answered. You never provided a counter argument, and if you had, I would have refuted it without personally insulting you.

By the way, I was an atheist for a long time. I was very agnostic however, and more often than not would not harden my heart and say "this is this because of this and I know for sure!!!" because I knew it to be detrimental in the pursuit of truth, in the pursuit of answers. Jesus is love. Love is all there is.

 

[Kenny'sID]

No one else has really bothered to give a relevant answer other than perhaps those who are on my ignore list (I don't know or care what they have said here).

Never used the feature myself. Curious, how many people do you have on that list?

 

[aiki]

So... if I understand you correctly, you concede the point that we all would've been better off if earth's existence had been skipped over,

How do we judge this properly from our limited, finite, and ignorant perspective? The tapestry of cause and effect God is weaving is far beyond our ability to comprehend. If it is even possible that, on balance, God achieves more good than bad through the way He has chosen to act in human history, then your statement above does not hold.

you believe that God created the earth and our earthly lives to give him glory through history.

Not solely, but primarily or fundamentally. The universe is not about us but about Him.

By "history" I can only assume you're referring to all of the genocide, mass murder, and brutalization of women and children that are occasionally taken as war booty.

And here is an excellent example of your glaring bias. "I can only assume" is right. Your extreme prejudice prevents you from any other line of thinking, it seems. In reality, the record of God's involvement with humanity in the Bible is far more complex, far more varied, and far more positive than you are, in your militant atheism, able to acknowledge. But we all recognize the Strawman you've erected here.

If instead of that you mean to refer to the acts of Jesus when you say "history", then you are mistaken when you identify that with glory since Jesus' actions are more appropriately associated with love and humility rather than glory (he has not yet come in glory).

As God incarnate, Jesus demonstrates in his humility and love the excellency of the divine nature. In so doing, he has become the object of the worship and praise of a great many. Millions of Christians over the centuries have glorified him because of his incredible act of loving self-sacrifice on the cross. Thus, even in humiliation, God is glorified.

In conclusion, I infer that you're not only admitting that we all would've been better off had earth's existence been skipped over, but in fact the primary reason it exists is so that we may suffer in order to glorify God. Is this correct?

Obviously not. But I understand the limits of reasoning your atheism imposes on you. See above.

Selah.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I don't think that we would be better off. I think we would be worse off. Without history we would not know God like we do. But yes, God created earth, our lives, and all of history to display his glory through the unfolding story of history. The best way to know that God is just or that God is merciful, for example, is to observe his actions in the unfolding story of history.



By "history" I mean everything that occurs between creation and consummation - the good, bad, and ugly.



Jesus' humility also displays the glory of God. God is glorified as he is seen in Christ as the humble, servant king who suffers for the sins of his people. God's weakness, as Paul says, is infinitely greater than all human strength. The glory of God is a multifaceted thing. For God's glory to be displayed means that his mercy, humility, power, knowledge, wisdom, patience, justice, etc are displayed. "Glory" is shorthand for "everything that makes God wonderful".



Our suffering does serve to glorify God. And when God is glorified we gain a knowledge of him that makes all of our suffering small in comparison. But I by no means believe that we would have been better off without history. As I said above, without history we would not know God.

So you are denying personal revelation? You finished with, "As I said above, without history we would not know God."

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Lol.

Or you just can't hear truth when it's presented?

But sure, insult those who answered your questions honestly. If I didn't have an answer for you, I wouldn't have answered. You never provided a counter argument, and if you had, I would have refuted it without personally insulting you.

By the way, I was an atheist for a long time. I was very agnostic however, and more often than not would not harden my heart and say "this is this because of this and I know for sure!!!" because I knew it to be detrimental in the pursuit of truth, in the pursuit of answers. Jesus is love. Love is all there is.

I'm not saying that I know for sure. In the post that you are quoting I admitted to not knowing fundamental mysteries. Your conversion testimony might mean more if I was convinced that you pay attention. You had no answer because you didn't pay attention to the topic. Nothing you said was relevant.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

IOW, you know better than the God that makes so little sense to free thinkers like yourself, the God you don't even believe exists, so you might as well rain on the parade of those who do believe and try to destroy their faith because misery love company?

It's not my fault that casual observations cast serious doubt on your beliefs.

Never used the feature myself. Curious, how many people do you have on that list?

Couple dozen.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It's not my fault that casual observations cast serious doubt on your beliefs.

Your doubts weren't my concern.

 

[Tree of Life]

So you are denying personal revelation? You finished with, "As I said above, without history we would not know God."

I'm not sure what you mean by personal revelation.

 

[rjs330]

But wouldn't it be better for us to not face the choice at all and instead be in God's presence?

What would your argument from hell be if you were sent directly there? I imagine it would be something along the lines of "Its not fair you never gave,me a chance." Maybe not.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

What would your argument from hell be if you were sent directly there? I imagine it would be something along the lines of "Its not fair you never gave,me a chance." Maybe not.

5th paragraph of the OP addresses that, as does common sense.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I'm not sure what you mean by personal revelation.

Is it really necessary to toy with me? You're a cessationist, I get it.

 

[Tree of Life]

Is it really necessary to toy with me? You're a cessationist, I get it.

"Personal revelation" is not a technical term that I'm familiar with. When I google it all I get is stuff from the Mormon Church. It's a legitimate question that I'm asking you.

 

[rjs330]

5th paragraph of the OP addresses that, as does common sense.

No it doesn't because you state existence here is a test. And omniscience has nothing to do with this conversation because it is not an act. Existence here is not a test. Its an opportunity. An opportunity to choose God or not. An opportunity to glorify God or not. An opportunity for God to show you his glory and you to accept it or not.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

"Personal revelation" is not a technical term that I'm familiar with. When I google it all I get is stuff from the Mormon Church. It's a legitimate question that I'm asking you.

You said, "without history we would not know God." It seems you're saying that God does not reveal himself to you.

 

[Tree of Life]

You said, "without history we would not know God." It seems you're saying that God does not reveal himself to you.

God reveals himself to me through the Scriptures which, in my view, recount redemptive history.