Our existence on earth is pointless

[Nihilist Virus]

Believers would prefer to have been initially created in heaven, since heaven is paradise and also they would be immediately in the presence of their Lord.

Come Judgment Day, all unbelievers will wish that they had initially been created in heaven instead of being tested on earth.

Jesus preferred to not die, as evidenced by his intense anguish in the garden shortly before his arrest. If humanity was initially created in heaven, Jesus wouldn't have had to die. If Jesus didn't have to die, there would have been no point in his incarnation on earth.

What was the point of God putting us on earth? I find that all parties involved would have preferred for earth's existence to be skipped over entirely.

If earth is for a test, I find that pointless since God is omniscient. Those who would have failed the test simply need not have been created. Indeed, many here on this forum groan about my existence.

If it's the case that we cannot inhabit heaven without first being redeemed by the blood of Jesus, and Jesus's existence on earth necessitates the existence of earth, then please explain how the angels inhabited heaven before Christ's death. Couldn't the same explanation apply to us if we were created perfect and already in heaven just as the angels?

Therefore, on Christianity, there is no point in earth's existence. So Christianity would have us believe that earth's existence is not only a pointless game, but a dangerous game with infinite risk that could be avoided entirely to the benefit of everyone if only the creator were so inclined.

On atheism, there is also no point in earth's existence. However, it is not a pointless game of Russian Roulette but rather it is the one and only opportunity at life that any of us will have.

 

[SkyWriting]

What was the point of God putting us on earth?

Our existence is a gift we are not worthy to receive.
The wages of Sin is Death.

What that means is that any existence outside of God's fellowship is lethal.

But God granted us a gift of "time" so that we are not instantly evaporated.
"Earth" is a gift of a place to "enjoy" our gift. I know. It's not that much fun.
I can't explain why we have this gift, but it seems we got it. Praise God and
hang on for the ride. The duration we don't know.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Our existence is a gift we are not worthy to receive.
The wages of Sin is Death.

What that means is that any existence outside of God's fellowship is lethal.

But God granted us a gift of "time" so that we are not instantly evaporated.
"Earth" is a gift of a place to "enjoy" our gift. I know. It's not that much fun.
I can't explain why we have this gift, but it seems we got it. Praise God and
hang on for the ride. The duration we don't know.

So after all that, you admit that you have no answer?

 

[SkyWriting]

So after all that, you admit that you have no answer?

Fellowship training is the answer, but likely I need to develop that further.
Sorry if I was too long with my answer. Ill work at being more Twitter
oriented for you.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Believers would prefer to have been initially created in heaven, since heaven is paradise and also they would be immediately in the presence of their Lord.

Come Judgment Day, all unbelievers will wish that they had initially been created in heaven instead of being tested on earth.

Jesus preferred to not die, as evidenced by his intense anguish in the garden shortly before his arrest. If humanity was initially created in heaven, Jesus wouldn't have had to die. If Jesus didn't have to die, there would have been no point in his incarnation on earth.

What was the point of God putting us on earth? I find that all parties involved would have preferred for earth's existence to be skipped over entirely.

If earth is for a test, I find that pointless since God is omniscient. Those who would have failed the test simply need not have been created. Indeed, many here on this forum groan about my existence.

If it's the case that we cannot inhabit heaven without first being redeemed by the blood of Jesus, and Jesus's existence on earth necessitates the existence of earth, then please explain how the angels inhabited heaven before Christ's death. Couldn't the same explanation apply to us if we were created perfect and already in heaven just as the angels?

Therefore, on Christianity, there is no point in earth's existence. So Christianity would have us believe that earth's existence is not only a pointless game, but a dangerous game with infinite risk that could be avoided entirely to the benefit of everyone if only the creator were so inclined.

On atheism, there is also no point in earth's existence. However, it is not a pointless game of Russian Roulette but rather it is the one and only opportunity at life that any of us will have.

Way too dark. There are lots of things to experience and enjoy in this world. Revel in it, mate!

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Fellowship training is the answer, but likely I need to develop that further.
Sorry if I was too long with my answer. Ill work at being more Twitter
oriented for you.

You mentioned nothing about fellowship in your first response. You rambled for a while and then ultimately conceded the point. Now you suggest I have a short attention span because I differentiated the relevant from the irrelevant.

You can be snippy with me, but you better be right. If you're snippy and wrong, it's just internet pollution.

 

[Steve Petersen]

There's an old rabbinic saying: "On Judgement Day, a man will give account for the things that were permitted to him, but which he did not partake."

 

[SkyWriting]

You mentioned nothing about fellowship in your first response. You rambled for a while and then ultimately conceded the point. Now you suggest I have a short attention span because I differentiated the relevant from the irrelevant.You can be snippy with me, but you better be right. If you're snippy and wrong, it's just internet pollution.

Right and Wrong is for Priests and little boys.
Oh, you saw the commercial.

 

[rjs330]

I think I get what you're saying here.

First of all we don't really know exactly why God created us. He doesn't need us. Revelation 4:11 says he did it for his pleasure. So I guess he did it cause he wanted to. I don't have a good answer. The word is clear how God feels about us now that we are here, but doesn't really say why he did it in the first place.

As far as why he didn't just create us in heaven or hell since he knew,we were headed there in the first place, I think it is his justice to why he did not do that. Omniscience is not the,same as cause. It's obvious that God wants us to choose Him, so it appears that it wouldn't be just to not even give us the opportunity to say yes.

But there are things that are beyond our understanding right now. We can debate and go back and forth,all day long, but there are just some things we won't get until judgement day.

It's like trying to give out the deep things of the universe,to a 4 year old.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

If it's the case that we cannot inhabit heaven without first being redeemed by the blood of Jesus, and Jesus's existence on earth necessitates the existence of earth, then please explain how the angels inhabited heaven before Christ's death. Couldn't the same explanation apply to us if we were created perfect and already in heaven just as the angels?

1. Our doctrine regarding the angels, as I believe you know, is that there was a sharp dichotomy between those who sided with the devil and were expelled from Heaven, vs. those who did not; the angels who rejected the devil remain in heaven and are sinless beings.

2. Human beings, however, having succumbed to sin in Genesis 2, were cast out of Paradise (not the same as Heaven, but rather, what you might call The Garden of Eden), are dependent upon the mercy of our Lord, which is most assuredly available through the Church, to benefit from His salvific actions including His passion, in order to be cleansed from sin and to once more properly reflect the divine image.

Beyond that, however, since God condescended to rectify our fall by assuming our human nature, our humanity is glorified and deified in Christ and thus through sincere repentance and participation in the sacramental life of the Church we are glorified and deified. See On The Incarnation, by St. Athanasius, who compiled the definitive 27-book New Testament canon (without him I suppose we might be being forced to defend the Christian faith to criticisms you might produce from The Shepherd of Hermas or 1 Barnabas, which is somewhat of a daunting proposition, although not I ahould say as daunting as the thought of having to use Gnostic scripture like The Gospel of Truth for apologetics purposes. Imagine trying to do apologetics from The Thunder: Perfect Mind; the horror!)

 

[Nihilist Virus]

1. Our doctrine regarding the angels, as I believe you know, is that there was a sharp dichotomy between those who sided with the devil and were expelled from Heaven, vs. those who did not; the angels who rejected the devil remain in heaven and are sinless beings.

2. Human beings, however, having succumbed to sin in Genesis 2, were cast out of Paradise (not the same as Heaven, but rather, what you might call The Garden of Eden), are dependent upon the mercy of our Lord, which is most assuredly available through the Church, to benefit from His salvific actions including His passion, in order to be cleansed from sin and to once more properly reflect the divine image.

Beyond that, however, since God condescended to rectify our fall by assuming our human nature, our humanity is glorified and deified in Christ and thus through sincere repentance and participation in the sacramental life of the Church we are glorified and deified. See On The Incarnation, by St. Athanasius, who compiled the definitive 27-book New Testament canon (without him I suppose we might be being forced to defend the Christian faith to criticisms you might produce from The Shepherd of Hermas or 1 Barnabas, which is somewhat of a daunting proposition, although not I ahould say as daunting as the thought of having to use Gnostic scripture like The Gospel of Truth for apologetics purposes. Imagine trying to do apologetics from The Thunder: Perfect Mind; the horror!)

Could you please break it down further? I don't understand how this answers my questions.

 

[Greg J.]

[/QUOTE]

Believers would prefer to have been initially created in heaven, since heaven is paradise and also they would be immediately in the presence of their Lord.

I've never met such a Christian.

Come Judgment Day, all unbelievers will wish that they had initially been created in heaven instead of being tested on earth.

God did not create mankind to test us, and he is not testing us.

What was the point of God putting us on earth? I find that all parties involved would have preferred for earth's existence to be skipped over entirely.

His point was to create living beings to love and be loved by—a way of expressing his loving nature. There was no ulterior motive.

If earth is for a test, I find that pointless since God is omniscient. Those who would have failed the test simply need not have been created. Indeed, many here on this forum groan about my existence.

God has always existed and has always been omniscient. There is no "purpose" in the existence of God's omniscience. As mentioned above, God didn't create mankind to test them. The reason people do not buy into God's plans and purposes to love one another is because they choose not to.

If it's the case that we cannot inhabit heaven without first being redeemed by the blood of Jesus, and Jesus's existence on earth necessitates the existence of earth, then please explain how the angels inhabited heaven before Christ's death. Couldn't the same explanation apply to us if we were created perfect and already in heaven just as the angels?

There was nothing wrong with God creating beings different than angels.

Therefore, on Christianity, there is no point in earth's existence. So Christianity would have us believe that earth's existence is not only a pointless game, but a dangerous game with infinite risk that could be avoided entirely to the benefit of everyone if only the creator were so inclined.

On atheism, there is also no point in earth's existence. However, it is not a pointless game of Russian Roulette but rather it is the one and only opportunity at life that any of us will have.

Entrusting oneself to Jesus is the one and only opportunity people will have for true life (without evil in their lives).

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life. (1 Timothy 6:17-19, 1984 NIV)

 

[civilwarbuff]

And he does have a lot of experience with internet pollution......

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Could you please break it down further? I don't understand how this answers my questions.

Not all angels inhabited heaven before the death of our Lord; angels are by nature dofferent from humans, and those who sided with the devil and were expelled from Heaven did so as a more or less definite act, whereas the fall of humanity was due to naivete and deception and thus God condescended to not only repair it but glorify humanity beyond our original condition by making us worthy to become consubstantial with him.

Orthodox doctrine further holds that those born before the passion and ressurrection of our Lord, who had no possibility of encountering and being saved in His Church, were given the opportunity to depart what you might call Hell and follow our Lord into Heaven during his descent into Hell. Indeed, Orthodox hymnography for the Great Pascha describes Hell as "emptied" and "despoiled" and says that "not one dead remains in a tomb."

It is not quite clear whether or not this refers spiritually to some abode of dead souls or if rather the dead were simply for the time being dead, but it is clear they are by and large dead no longer.

Set aside Dante and his depiction of Hell, which is at odds with the ancient tradition of the Church; according to the doctrine of the Orthodox one might not unreasonably hope to find Brutus and Caesar both in a state of salvation owing to divine mercy.

On the other hand, only those who, like Origen, subscribed to the doctrine, some would say the heresy, of apokatastasis, would say there exists any hope of salvation for the fallen angels such as Satan. The Patristic consensus suggests their choice was absolute, permanent, informed and binding. As for why they would choose such a self-destructive course, I suppose only Milton provides a satisfactory answer.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Not all angels inhabited heaven before the death of our Lord; angels are by nature dofferent from humans, and those who sided with the devil and were expelled from Heaven did so as a more or less definite act, whereas the fall of humanity was due to naivete and deception and thus God condescended to not only repair it but glorify humanity beyond our original condition by making us worthy to become consubstantial with him.

Orthodox doctrine further holds that those born before the passion and ressurrection of our Lord, who had no possibility of encountering and being saved in His Church, were given the opportunity to depart what you might call Hell and follow our Lord into Heaven during his descent into Hell. Indeed, Orthodox hymnography for the Great Pascha describes Hell as "emptied" and "despoiled" and says that "not one dead remains in a tomb."

It is not quite clear whether or not this refers spiritually to some abode of dead souls or if rather the dead were simply for the time being dead, but it is clear they are by and large dead no longer.

Set aside Dante and his depiction of Hell, which is at odds with the ancient tradition of the Church; according to the doctrine of the Orthodox one might not unreasonably hope to find Brutus and Caesar both in a state of salvation owing to divine mercy.

On the other hand, only those who, like Origen, subscribed to the doctrine, some would say the heresy, of apokatastasis, would say there exists any hope of salvation for the fallen angels such as Satan. The Patristic consensus suggests their choice was absolute, permanent, informed and binding. As for why they would choose such a self-destructive course, I suppose only Milton provides a satisfactory answer.

I have a simple question of why we were not created in heaven to begin with. Instead of answering, you're dancing all over the place discussing irrelevant topics. Combine this with the fact that you mocked my serious discussion on morality by littering it with funny ratings and I see no reason to entertain you any further.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I have a simple question of why we were not created in heaven to begin with. Instead of answering, you're dancing all over the place discussing irrelevant topics. Combine this with the fact that you mocked my serious discussion on morality by littering it with funny ratings and I see no reason to entertain you any further.

Oh, on that point, the answer is quite simple: heaven is a spiritual abode, and human beings are material. Thus we were not created in Heaven, but in Paradise, e.g. the Garden of Eden. When we die, our souls might temporarily remain in Heaven, or alternately experience a foretaste of damnation, but after the dread day of judgement, those who are found worthy will not enter into Heaven, but into the World to Come, the recreated Earth, which is described in the closing verses of Revelations.

Your problem seems to be you think that the eschatological objective of Christianity is to "get to Heaven"; this is rather a Gnostic error that some naive Protestants fell into, but Christianity does not actually believe in the cosmology depicted in Dante's Divine Comedy of a three tier universe.

Heaven, being a spiritual, pnuematic realm, was not a fitting abode for material beings, humans, who were instead created in a material paradise.

Also on the other thread I found your posts very amusing from the perspective of social commentary; I can assure you the use of the Funny button does not imply sardonic laughter.

 

[ChetSinger]

What was the point of God putting us on earth? I find that all parties involved would have preferred for earth's existence to be skipped over entirely.

...If it's the case that we cannot inhabit heaven without first being redeemed by the blood of Jesus...

...if we were created perfect and already in heaven just as the angels?

Could I correct what I believe is a misconception on your part? Our eternal home isn't in heaven, but on a new earth. We won't be angels. Rather, our flesh will be resurrected; we'll be new physical beings, occupying a new physical home.

I have to mention that because it's difficult for me to reply to your questions when I think you may be mistaken regarding a very basic Christian belief.

FWIW, regarding God's reasons for putting us on earth I think chocolate cake can be considered one of them.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Could I correct what I believe is a misconception on your part? Our eternal home isn't in heaven, but on a new earth.

My mistake. However, that doesn't seem to change the question much. Why didn't God just create us on the new earth to start off with and skip earth? God, believers, and unbelievers would all benefit.

We won't be angels. Rather, our flesh will be resurrected; we'll be new physical beings, occupying a new physical home.

I don't recall implying we'd become angels. I never believed that as a Christian and I don't find there to be any theological evidence for it now.

I have to mention that because it's difficult for me to reply to your questions when I think you may be mistaken regarding a very basic Christian belief.

Like I said, just replace heaven with new earth. It's not difficult.

FWIW, regarding God's reasons for putting us on earth I think chocolate cake can be considered one of them.

Ah, so God intended for us to eat devil's food, and we are banished when we eat God's food?

 

[ChetSinger]

My mistake. However, that doesn't seem to change the question much. Why didn't God just create us on the new earth to start off with and skip earth? God, believers, and unbelievers would all benefit.

No problem.

As I read Genesis, this earth was just fine when it was created. What was wrong with it? Nothing that I know of.

I don't recall implying we'd become angels. I never believed that as a Christian and I don't find there to be any theological evidence for it now.

Good. My mistake then.

Like I said, just replace heaven with new earth. It's not difficult.

Referring to my first response, the first earth was "very good". It was completely unspoiled. And Adam would still be alive if he hadn't sinned. Imo, a new earth became desirable only because this one became damaged.

Ah, so God intended for us to eat devil's food, and we are banished when we eat God's food?

I think that additional reasons for creating us include breezy summer days, swimming in lakes, companionship, music, etc. I think you get my idea.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I've never met such a Christian.

So you prefer your existence on earth to that of the new earth? You have no interest in dwelling with Jesus and speaking with him face to face? Or you are interested in that, but not very excited and you don't mind waiting 80 years?

God did not create mankind to test us, and he is not testing us.

It's quite clearly a test. There's the constant analogy of how Jesus is the master who's gone away and he's entrusted us with his wealth and/or estate, and we will be rewarded or punished upon his return. That is a test.

His point was to create living beings to love and be loved by—a way of expressing his loving nature. There was no ulterior motive.

You make the human relationship with the deity sound so symmetrical. I find that to be misleading. Also, if that was the primary purpose, then why did it take so long for that thought to be formulated? Who's the first man in the Bible to be made aware of this?

Furthermore, I find no purpose in God wanting to establish a relationship with us. Being omniscient, he already knows what that experience feels like. Actualizing the scenario changes nothing for God, and therefore it is pointless - at least for God. Pursuing this line of reasoning, we conclude that God created us for our own sake. Yet the vast majority of us are headed for hell. I would find this to be an extremely disturbing reality.

God has always existed and has always been omniscient. There is no "purpose" in the existence of God's omniscience. As mentioned above, God didn't create mankind to test them. The reason people do not buy into God's plans and purposes to love one another is because they choose not to.

You misunderstood what I said. I was not questioning the purpose of God's omniscience. I said that I find the test to be pointless since God is omniscient. I understand that you disagree on the issue of there being a test, but your disagreement does not change my words.

There was nothing wrong with God creating beings different than angels.

I'm not saying the creation in itself is unethical. I'm asking what the point is.

Entrusting oneself to Jesus is the one and only opportunity people will have for true life (without evil in their lives).

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life. (1 Timothy 6:17-19, 1984 NIV)

Not relevant.