Our built in disposition to sin

[Gary K]

he chose him ...

So? That doesn't refute scripture. You must be a Calvinist with your deterministic viewpoint. I believe God created us all as free moral agents.

I rejected determinism decades ago.

 

[honey badger]

So? That doesn't refute scripture. You must be a Calvinist with your deterministic viewpoint. I believe God created us all as free moral agents.

I rejected determinism decades ago.

never heard of determinism ...

 

[Gary K]

never heard of determinism ...

Determinism says that everyone's past, present, and future is fixed. That all of our actions are predetermined and we don't have any ability to make our own choices. It says hereditary and environmental forces make us make the choices we do. Calvinists believe it is God who determines every choice we have ever, or will ever, make thus making us nothing but robots with no ability to actually love Him.

 

[honey badger]

Determinism says that everyone's past, present, and future is fixed. That all of our actions are predetermined and we don't have any ability to make our own choices. It says hereditary and environmental forces make us make the choices we do. Calvinists believe it is God who determines every choice we have ever, or will ever, make thus making us nothing but robots with no ability to actually love Him.

to believe this and then to also believe God is seperate from yourself is where it gets confusing ....

 

[enoob57]

We inherited our sinful nature from Adam and Eve. That means we are sinful right down to the level of our DNA

Then How could Jesus say this?
Mark 10:14 (KJV)
[14] But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

 

[Gary K]

to believe this and then to also believe God is seperate from yourself is where it gets confusing ....

Huh? Why is that confusing?

 

[Gary K]

Then How could Jesus say this?
Mark 10:14 (KJV)
[14] But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Because Jesus is telling us that we need to be as trusting of our heavenly father as little kids are of their parents who treat them well. It's why kids who are abused have a terrible time learning to trust God. I know as I was abused growing up and it has taken me as many decades as I've been alive to learn to trust Him and my trust in Him is still growing.

 

[enoob57]

Because Jesus is telling us that we need to be as trusting of our heavenly father as little kids are of their parents who treat them well.

Your saying a whole lot the text does not... my point is Jesus compared children with fallen nature to the very DNA you claim... but this...
Mark 10:14 (KJV)
[14] But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
It just doesn't fit with your claim and to make your claim fit you say more than the passage does!

 

[Gary K]

Your saying a whole lot the text does not... my point is Jesus compared children with fallen nature to the very DNA you claim... but this...
Mark 10:14 (KJV)
[14] But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
It just doesn't fit with your claim and to make your claim fit you say more than the passage does!

Ok. Here are the surrounding verses demonstrate from them what you're asserting.

Mark 10: 13 ¶ And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

 

[enoob57]

Ok. Here are the surrounding verses demonstrate from them what you're asserting.

Mark 10: 13 ¶ And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

I do not see as your position is no good to the very DNA ... yet Jesus uses them as they able to receive the kingdom of God?

 

[honey badger]

Huh? Why is that confusing?

division in itself is confusion ...

 

[Gary K]

I do not see as your position is no good to the very DNA ... yet Jesus uses them as they able to receive the kingdom of God?

Examples of the trust in God we need for Him to save us.

15. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

 

[enoob57]

Examples of the trust in God we need for Him to save us.

15. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

were just not connecting in the thought process... thanks for trying...

 

[oikonomia]

My apologies if I misunderstood you. There's a common understanding that man or human nature changed in some fundamental way, gaining a new "sin nature" at the Fall. So it's important IMO to emphasize that while sin flourished after the Fall, the reason was due to what man lost, subjugation to God, not what became added to him.

No it was also that through Adam we were constituted sinners.
A few English translations bring this out in Romans 5:19.

For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous. (Rom. 5:19 Recovery Version)

Weymouth New Testament
For as through the disobedience of the one individual the mass of mankind were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. (Rom. 5:19)

Young's Literal Translation
for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

Something got into the fabric of our being like a parasite.

Think of it this way. A mother tells her child not to drink of a certain bottle which contains poison.
The child rebels and disobeys.

Now there is two problems.
1.) The child has damaged the submissive relationship with the parent causing an offense.
2.) The child has gotten poison into their body killing the child from within.

You see the Satanic spirit, Paul says, is operating in the virtual offspring of the Devil.

And you, though dead in your offenses and sins,
In which you once walked according to the age of this world,
according to the ruler of the authority of the air,
of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience; (Eph. 2:1,2 RcV)

I don't like to dwell on what a good job Satan did on man.
I like to hasten to what a surpassing salvation there is for our entire being in Christ.

 

[fhansen]

No it was also that through Adam we were constituted sinners.
A few English translations bring this out in Romans 5:19.

For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous. (Rom. 5:19 Recovery Version)

Weymouth New Testament
For as through the disobedience of the one individual the mass of mankind were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. (Rom. 5:19)

Young's Literal Translation
for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

Something got into the fabric of our being like a parasite.

Think of it this way. A mother tells her child not to drink of a certain bottle which contains poison.
The child rebels and disobeys.

Now there is two problems.
1.) The child has damaged the submissive relationship with the parent causing an offense.
2.) The child has gotten poison into their body killing the child from within.

You see the Satanic spirit, Paul says, is operating in the virtual offspring of the Devil.

And you, though dead in your offenses and sins,
In which you once walked according to the age of this world,
according to the ruler of the authority of the air,
of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience; (Eph. 2:1,2 RcV)

I don't like to dwell on what a good job Satan did on man.
I like to hasten to what a surpassing salvation there is for our entire being in Christ.

And "constituted" can simply mean made sinners, which is the way most translations render it. So, as Adam alienated mankind from God, men inevitably became (were made) sinners, because that union or fellowship with Him is absolutely paramount, essential, to our having righteousness, which is why righteousness is attained again by the reconciliation with God that Jesus accomplished; we're made righteous. Man, alone, apart from God, acting solely as his own authority, will sin IOW. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). But, "With God all things are possible" (Matt 19:26). That's the message; man must heed and remain in communion with God, and only God can accomplish that vital, life-giving reunion.

Satan doesn't really need to do much-we follow him easily enough just by being carried away by our own lusts (James1:14-15-and we're on his rebellious turf in any case to the extent that we remain in exile from our Creator.

 

[Gary K]

And "constituted" can simply mean made sinners, which is the way most translations render it. So, as Adam alienated mankind from God, men inevitably became (were made) sinners, because that union or fellowship with Him is absolutely paramount, essential, to our having righteousness, which is why righteousness is attained again by the reconciliation with God that Jesus accomplished; we're made righteous. Man, alone, apart from God, acting solely as his own authority, will sin IOW. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). But, "With God all things are possible" (Matt 19:26). That's the message; man must heed and remain in communion with God, and only God can accomplish that vital, life-giving reunion.

Satan doesn't really need to do much-we follow him easily enough just by being carried away by our own lusts (James1:14-15-and we're on his rebellious turf in any case to the extent that we remain in exile from our Creator.

I had never before run across anyone who didn't believe we had a fallen nature in 20+ years of posting in Christian forums until I posted this on another forum a couple of days ago. Now I've met three people that don't believe we have a sinful nature no matter how many times Paul and the rest of scripture says we do.

 

[fhansen]

I had never before run across until I posted this on another forum a couple of days ago. Now I've met three people that don't believe we have a sinful nature no matter how many times Paul and the rest of scripture says we do.

The term isn't used in the bible-and historically the church has never believed or taught man that had a sin nature-as if he wasn't merely fallen but had actually changed in nature. He has not, that's a novel idea. The tragedy, the offense, the state of sin of fallen man is the awful, unjust, foreign situation of man being in a state of separation from his Creator.

 

[Gary K]

The term isn't used in the bible-and historically the church has never believed or taught man that had a sin nature-as if he wasn't merely fallen but had actually changed in nature. He has not, that's a novel idea. The tragedy, the offense, the state of sin of fallen man is the awful, unjust, foreign situation of man being in a state of separation from his Creator.

Jesus taught that we have a fallen nature. Paul taught it throughout his writings. It's all throughout the OT. So I don't care what other sinful men teach. I'll stick with the inspired word of God. You can choose whatever source you like.

 

[fhansen]

Jesus taught that we have a fallen nature. Paul taught it throughout his writings. It's all throughout the OT. So I don't care what other sinful men teach. I'll stick with the inspired word of God. You can choose whatever source you like.

We all have the choice regarding whatever source we like-and whether or not to listen to "sinful men". As it is your doctrine comes from a tradition of man dating back about 5 centuries now.

 

[Gary K]

We all have the choice regarding whatever source we like-and whether or not to listen to "sinful men". As it is your doctrine comes from a tradition of man dating back about 5 centuries now.

Really? The OT and NT is only 500 years old?

Here is a pasasage showing it is God who changes our hearts not we ourselves.

Ezekiel 36: 25 ¶ Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This is one of my favorite scriptural promises. Demonstrate for me where this passage leaves any room for anyone other than God to change us, our attitudes and our spiritual condition.