OT says Messiah is God

[zeke37]

OT says Messiah is God....ergo Christ is God

any takers?

from
The Messiah |

The Messiah Would Be God Himself

“I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior.” (Isaiah 43:11)
​

Not only this verse, but the entire Old Testament makes it very clear that God alone is the One who saves us from the judgment of sin. He alone is our Savior.

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.” (Micah 5:2)
​

Here we learn the Messiah is an eternal Being.

Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS” (Jeremiah 23:5-6)
​

And here the Messiah is given an exalted title — “The Lord Our Righteousness” — and He executes judgment and righteousness in the earth. These are two things only God can do. “Surely He is God who judges in the earth.” (Psalm 58:11)

“The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” (Psalm 110:1)
​

“Sit at my right hand” is a term that speaks of equality. But God has said there is no one like Him or beside Him – “there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me.” (Isaiah 45:21) So who is this sitting at His right hand? It is Jesus Christ, God the Son as we’ll discover in this next verse.

"Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, if you know?" (Proverb 30:40)
​

Here in the middle of the Old Testament we learn that God has a Son.

“I will return again to My place till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face. In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.” ( Hosea 5:15)
​

God’s place is heaven (“Heaven is His throne” the Psalm says). To return to His place He must have first left it.

“Behold, I send My messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the LORD of hosts.” (Malachi 3:1)
​

This verse identifies the Messenger as “the Lord” who visits “His” temple. The Old Testament is certainly clear that only God is to be worshiped.

“Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens. When I call to them, They stand up together.
Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me.
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.” (Isaiah 48:12,16-17)
​

These verses are an absolute goldmine of information! Look at what they tell us:
1) The first verse clearly identifies the speaker as God
2) He tells us that God and the Holy Spirit have sent Him (Here is the Trinity in the Old Testament)
3) He tells us that He, God, is the Redeemer and the Holy One of Israel
So from these passages we can conclude that the Messiah is God, the Redeemer, and further more He is a member the Trinity.

 

[Tigger45]

Agreed. The Jews knew very well who Jesus was claming to be.

 

[timewerx]

NT agrees too. Pls pay attention to bold text:

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

Refers to Jesus:

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 10:30
I and the Father are one

John 12:44-45
Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me.

Interesting they all came up in John, at least the ones I remember.

 

[toolmanjantzi]

OT says Messiah is God....ergo Christ is God

any takers?

from
The Messiah |

Any reason this is considered unorthodox theology?

 

[RevelationTestament]

OT says Messiah is God....ergo Christ is God

any takers?

from
The Messiah |

Let's throw a monkey in your wrench:
Jer 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, יהוה our righteousness.

 

[Phantasman]

Using "Messiah" is confusing. The Jews wait for Messiah. Some expect us to think Jesus when we hear Messiah. The OT has a way of disrupting the Gospel(s).

"Jesus" is a hidden name, "Christ" is a revealed name. For this reason "Jesus" is not particular to any language; rather he is always called by the name "Jesus". While as for "Christ", in Syriac it is "Messiah", in Greek it is "Christ". Certainly all the others have it according to their own language. "The Nazarene" is he who reveals what is hidden. Christ has everything in himself, whether man, or angel, or mystery, and the Father. - Gospel of Philip.

 

[ChetSinger]

OT says Messiah is God....ergo Christ is God

any takers?

from
The Messiah |

You'll get agreement from me.

The idea of a Godhead was actually considered orthodox among Jews of Jesus' day. They used the following passages, among others, to support it:

The LORD is a man of war; the LORD is his name. - Ex 15

Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared.

Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.

But if you carefully obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.

When my angel goes before you and brings you to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, and I blot them out,

you shall not bow down to their gods nor serve them, nor do as they do, but you shall utterly overthrow them and break their pillars in pieces. - Ex 23

As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire.

A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened...

...I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.

And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. - Dan 7

I wonder if one reason today's Arian spin-offs get the foothold they do is because people are unaware that ancient Jewish beliefs included the concept of a Godhead. When they're told falsehoods such as "the divinity of Christ was a late invention", they believe them because they don't know any better.

 

[g_n_o_s_i_s]

OT says Messiah is God....ergo Christ is God

OT also says "God is not a man". That would exclude Jesus if he was a man.

 

[zeke37]

Any reason this is considered unorthodox theology?

nope...
just given my two cents on a subject that seems to be split among unorthodox groups

Let's throw a monkey in your wrench:
Jer 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, יהוה our righteousness.

to me, after re-reading the chapter (thx ,always love doing that)
that means that God will raise up ALL of Israel once again,
so that in the future, folks, whether in her or out of her,
will have no choice but to think of YHVH when they think/speak of Israel.
and likewise, they will automatically think of Israel, when they think/speak of YHVH.


it's not professing Deity to Israel
remember that God will DWELL there forever. Ez48

 

[zeke37]

Using "Messiah" is confusing. The Jews wait for Messiah. Some expect us to think Jesus when we hear Messiah. The OT has a way of disrupting the Gospel(s).

"Jesus" is a hidden name, "Christ" is a revealed name. For this reason

from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus

"Jesus" is a Latin transliteration, occurring in a number of languages and based on the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs).[25]

The Greek form is a hellenization of the Aramaic/Hebrew ישוע‎ (Yēšūă‘) which is a post-Exilic modification of the Hebrew יְהוֹשֻׁעַ‎ (Yĕhōšuă‘, Joshua) under influence from Aramaic.[26]

The etymology of the name Jesus in the context of the New Testament is generally expressed as "Yahweh saves"[27] or "Yahweh is salvation".

[28] The name Jesus appears to have been in use in Judea at the time of the birth of Jesus.[29] The first century works of historian Flavius Josephus refer to at least twenty different people with the name Jesus.[30] Philo's reference in Mutatione Nominum item 121 indicates that the etymology of the name Joshua was known outside Judea at the time.[31]


"Christ" (pron.: /ˈkraɪst/) is derived from the Greek Χριστός (Khrīstos), meaning "the anointed" or "the anointed one", a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as "Messiah" (pron.: /mɨˈsaɪ.ə/).[32] In the Septuagint version of the Hebrew Bible (written well over a century before the time of Jesus), the word "Christ" (Χριστό&#962 was used to translate the Hebrew word "Messiah" (מָשִׁיח&#1463 into Greek.[33] In Matthew 16:16, the apostle Peter's profession "You are the Christ" identifies Jesus as the Messiah.[34] In postbiblical usage, "Christ" became viewed as a name, one part of "Jesus Christ", but originally it was a title ("Jesus the Anointed").[35]
​

so I argue that, properly, the name and title Jesus Christ is translated into English as
God The Savior, The Anointed One

For this reason "Jesus" is not particular to any language; rather he is always called by the name "Jesus". While as for "Christ", in Syriac it is "Messiah", in Greek it is "Christ". Certainly all the others have it according to their own language.

so your complaint is that the term Messiah is confusing?
you'd prefer Anointed One?

i'll say this...
most folks have lost the meanings of the names and places in the bible,
because of transliterations being used instead of translations

sometimes I wish they'd have both at the same time...
that would make things easier to follow/understand

 

[zeke37]

You'll get agreement from me.

The idea of a Godhead was actually considered orthodox among Jews of Jesus' day. They used the following passages, among others, to support it:







I wonder if one reason today's Arian spin-offs get the foothold they do is because people are unaware that ancient Jewish beliefs included the concept of a Godhead. When they're told falsehoods such as "the divinity of Christ was a late invention", they believe them because they don't know any better.

all we can do is educate them/edify them...
plant the seed and see if Our Father grows it, because we can't.
we just plant it...

 

[zeke37]

OT also says "God is not a man". That would exclude Jesus if he was a man.

the OT says that God IS a man, multiple times.
so, we have an apparent contradiction.
what makes you think that your understanding is the correct one?

especially in light of the very many scriptures there are to support the Deity of Christ

now, this thread was/is about why the promised Messiah is God Himself
OT scripture about God being a man is already been given in the thread

in Numbers 23:19, Christ was not born yet, so the statement is true THEN

 

[timbo3]

The word Messiah (Hebrew) means "anointed one" (Greek Khristos) and comes from the Hebrew root verb ma·shach´, meaning “smear,” and so “anoint.” (Ex 29:2, 7) At Psalms 2, it says: "The kings of the earth take their stand and high officials themselves have massed together as one against Jehovah and his anointed one."("anointed one", Hebrew mashiach, meaning "anointed, specifically the Messiah", Ps 2:2) Hence, how can the Messiah be God and yet be noted as separate and distinct from Jehovah God ?

At Psalms 110, David wrote: "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: "Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet....Jehovah has sworn (and he will feel no regret): "You are a priest to time indefinite according to the manner of Melchizedek."(Ps 110:1, 4) How can the Messiah who is to serve as a "priest....according to the manner of Melchizedek" be Jehovah God since it is Jehovah that swears him in as "high priest" ?(Heb 6:20)

At Isaiah 53, it says of the Messiah, that "Jehovah himself took delight in crushing him.....By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant, will bring a righteous standing to many people."(Isa 53:10, 11) How can the Messiah be Jehovah God since it is Jehovah that "takes delight in crushing him" and calls him "my servant" ?

And of the Scriptures that is quoted such as Isaiah 43:11, and then saying that God alone is our Savior is true in the fullest and final sense (2 Sam 22:3; Isa 43:3), being Almighty God, but there are individuals that Jehovah God has used to accomplish his purpose and were called "savior", such as Othniel (Judges 3:9), Ehud (Judges 3:15), David (1 Sam 23:5), an unnamed man who brought the Israelites from under the hand of Syria (2 Kings 13:5), a "grand savior" that Jehovah sends to deliver his people from "Egypt", which is Jesus Christ (Isa 19:20), Jehovah's "personal messenger" (who later came to be Jesus Christ) saving the Israelites "during all their distress" (Isa 63:9), "Christ the Lord" (Luke 2:11).

At Acts 5, the apostle Peter told the Jewish Sanhedrin: "The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew, hanging him upon a stake. God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand."(Acts 5:30, 31) Thus, Jesus Christ is Jehovah's "personal messenger" that came to the earth, proving loyal to death on a "stake" and was resurrected by him and "exalted....as Chief Agent and Savior" to God's right hand.

At Micah 5:2, the King James Bible renders it as saying that "the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting". But there is an improper rendering here, for it does not say that "from everlasting" would this "Ruler" be, but "from time indefinite."

The Hebrew word used there is ohlam (H5769), meaning "hidden or concealed time", whereas the Hebrew word that means "everlasting" is 'ad, meaning "perpetuity"(H5703) Hence, the "Ruler", Jesus Christ, that came from Bethlehem Ephrathath has been "from time indefinite", whereas Jehovah God is the "King of eternity".(Ps 10:16; 1 Tim 1:17; Rev 15:3)

 

[tezboski99]

Jesus is the High Priest correct? Hebrews brings out that NO highpriest can take the office just because he wants to but they have to be appointed by GOD and selected or "called" just like Aaron. This is what happened to Jesus also.

Hebrews 5:1,4-5
"Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.
5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest."

The High Priest also serves GOD in the Temple or the tabernacle which represented heaven.

Hebrews 8:1-2
Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being."

If the Trinity teaching is TRUE then GOD appointed Himself to serve Himself in a Temple where He worships Himself.

Being positioned at the "right hand" of GOD is a position of honor not equality.

Compare
1 Kings 22:19
Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left.

Matthew 20:21
"What do you want?" Jesus asked.
She said, "Give your word that these two sons of mine will be awarded the highest places of honor in your kingdom, one at your right hand, one at your left hand."

1 Kings 2:19
When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand.

Surely you don't believe that each of the persons positioned at the "right hand" of a king were all coequal to the king. That would mean that the angels in heaven, Bath-sheba, James, and John were all coequal or asking to become coequal to GOD, Solomon, and Jesus respectively.

 

[Phantasman]

from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus

"Jesus" is a Latin transliteration, occurring in a number of languages and based on the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs).[25]

The Greek form is a hellenization of the Aramaic/Hebrew ישוע‎ (Yēšūă‘) which is a post-Exilic modification of the Hebrew יְהוֹשֻׁעַ‎ (Yĕhōšuă‘, Joshua) under influence from Aramaic.[26]

The etymology of the name Jesus in the context of the New Testament is generally expressed as "Yahweh saves"[27] or "Yahweh is salvation".

[28] The name Jesus appears to have been in use in Judea at the time of the birth of Jesus.[29] The first century works of historian Flavius Josephus refer to at least twenty different people with the name Jesus.[30] Philo's reference in Mutatione Nominum item 121 indicates that the etymology of the name Joshua was known outside Judea at the time.[31]


"Christ" (pron.: /ˈkraɪst/) is derived from the Greek Χριστός (Khrīstos), meaning "the anointed" or "the anointed one", a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as "Messiah" (pron.: /mɨˈsaɪ.ə/).[32] In the Septuagint version of the Hebrew Bible (written well over a century before the time of Jesus), the word "Christ" (Χριστό&#962 was used to translate the Hebrew word "Messiah" (מָשִׁיח&#1463 into Greek.[33] In Matthew 16:16, the apostle Peter's profession "You are the Christ" identifies Jesus as the Messiah.[34] In postbiblical usage, "Christ" became viewed as a name, one part of "Jesus Christ", but originally it was a title ("Jesus the Anointed").[35]
​

so I argue that, properly, the name and title Jesus Christ is translated into English as
God The Savior, The Anointed One

so your complaint is that the term Messiah is confusing?
you'd prefer Anointed One?

i'll say this...
most folks have lost the meanings of the names and places in the bible,
because of transliterations being used instead of translations

sometimes I wish they'd have both at the same time...
that would make things easier to follow/understand

It's not as much the translated name as what the name visualizes in the mind. People say "Messiah said this, or that". We assume they mean Jesus, but I hate assuming. They say Yahweh as God. To me Yahweh is referring to the demiurge. It is why I believe God the Father is nameless. Names are given to things created, according to Jesus. And I don't want it to appear that I place God on a first name basis, like my doctor. His title is well deserved as Heavenly Father.

 

[zeke37]

from THE NAME OF YAHWEH & YAHSHUA

Here are some scriptures that proves Yahweh wants us to use His Name. (Genesis.4:26, 12:8, 13:4, 16:13, 26:25, Exodus 3:15, 5:23, 9:16, 15:3, 20:7, 33:19, *34:5-6, Leviticus 18:21, 19:12, 20:3, 21:6, 22:2,32, 24:11-16, Numbers 6:27, Deuteronomy 5:11, 6:13, 10:8,20, 14:22, 18:5,7, 18:19-22, 28:10,58, 32:3, Psalms 5:11, 7:17, 8:1,9, 9:2,10, 18:49, 20:5,7, 22:22, 23:3, 25:11, 29:2, 31:3, 33:21, 34:3, 44:5,8,20, 45:17, 48:10, 52:9, 54:1,6, 63:4, 66:2,4, 69:29,36, 72:19, 74:7,10,18 21, 75:1, 76:1, 79:6,9, 80:18, 83:16,18, 86:9,11-12, 89:24, 91:14, 92:1, 96:2,8, 97:12, 99:3, 100:4, 102:21, 103:1, 105:1-12, 106:8,47, 111:9, 113:3, 115:1, 116:4,17, 118:10-12,26, 119:55,132, 124:8, 129:8, 135:1,3,13, 138:2, 139:20, 142:7, 143:11, 145:1-2,21, 148:5,13, 149:3, Proverbs 18:10, 30:*4,9, Isaiah 4:1, 12:4, 18:7, 25:1, 26:13, 29:23, 41:25, 42:8, 43:7, 47:4, 48:1-12, 50:10,51:15, 52:5-6, 56:6, 59:19, 63:12,14,16,19, 64:2,7, 65:1, Jeremiah 3:17, 10:6,16,25, 11:21, 12:16, 14:7,9,14-15,21, 15:16, 16:21, *23:25,27, 25:29, 26:9, 29:21,23, 32:18,34, 33:2, 34:15,16,). There is not enough space here, to give all the scriptures that proves we are to use Yahweh's Name, but we pray we have given you enough to make one thirst for more. There are 66 times that Yahweh is abbreviated in the word. Here are a few examples: (Psalms 68:4, Isaiah 12:2, 26:4, 38:11, nkjv.). There is over 7,000 times Yahweh (LORD,GOD, nkjv) is mentioned in the word, these are a few examples: (Genesis 4:26, Exodus 3:15, Leviticus 19:30, Numbers 15:41, Deuteronomy 5:32, Joshua 5:3, Matthew 21:9, 22:37,44, 23:39, 27:10, Mark 1:3, 11:9, 12:11,29). There are many, many more scriptures, "search your word!" Reference books: The Interpreters DICTIONARY of the BIBLE (ALL 4 Books A-D,E-J,K-Q,R-Z, New Unger's Bible Dictionary, Strong's Concordance of the Bible, Websters Dictionary).

now, I PERSONALLY pronounce his name as YahHaVeH
I don't accept the W sound

 

[timbo3]

the OT says that God IS a man, multiple times.
so, we have an apparent contradiction.
what makes you think that your understanding is the correct one?

especially in light of the very many scriptures there are to support the Deity of Christ

now, this thread was/is about why the promised Messiah is God Himself
OT scripture about God being a man is already been given in the thread

in Numbers 23:19, Christ was not born yet, so the statement is true THEN

In the Bible, there are several examples whereby it seemingly says that God is a man. However, most overlook key details that show that it is an angel representing God. For example, at Genesis 18, it says that Abraham was sitting "among the trees of Mamre" and that "Jehovah appeared to him" as among "three men".(Gen 18:1, 2)

Later in Genesis 18:22, it says that two of the "men" left before Jehovah and began walking toward Sodom, where Lot was residing. Genesis 19:1 now identifies these two "men" as angels. Likewise of Jehovah, an angel representing him stood before Abraham as a "man". Hence, the "three men" that went to Abraham were three angels that materialized to look like a human male, with one speaking for Jehovah.

At Exodus 3, it says that when Moses was tending sheep at Horeb, that "Jehovah's angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush."(Ex 3:1, 2) Yet, at verse 4, it now says that "Jehovah saw that he had turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said "Moses ! Moses !". Hence, an angel that was representing Jehovah God spoke to Moses. Thus, Jehovah was not there personally, but sent his "personal messenger" to speak for him.(Isa 63:9, "angel of his presence", KJV)

On another occasion, when an angel came to speak with the wife of Manoah concerning becoming pregnant with Samson (Judges 13:6), Manoah later prayed that "the man" return to show how to instruct the "child" (Judges 13:8) and in which "the true God listened to the voice of Manoah, and the angel of the true God came again to the woman while she was sitting in the field."(Judges 13:9)

And of Jesus being deity, he is "a god", but not "God Almighty", praying to and worshiping "the only true God".(John 4:22-24; 17:3)

 

[zeke37]

the thread is about the OT saying that the Messiah was going to be God Himself.
can u address the op?

 

[Phantasman]

I'm writing this as the news just had two Muslim (extremists?) in London kill a soldier by hacking him to death. With blood on his hands, he sites the Qu'ran, using the term "eye for an eye, tooth for tooth" (OT). Jesus told us to not use this analogy anymore. Yet people use the OT to define their own truths.

I still believe Jesus brought truth and wisdom. If we refer to the OT, we take the chance of returning to untruths, as the Jews did.

"He is the invisible Spirit, of whom it is not right to think of him as a god, or something similar. For he is more than a god, since there is nothing above him, for no one lords it over him. For he does not exist in something inferior to him, since everything exists in him. For it is he who establishes himself. He is eternal, since he does not need anything. For he is total perfection. He did not lack anything, that he might be completed by it; rather he is always completely perfect in light. He is illimitable, since there is no one prior to him to set limits to him. He is unsearchable, since there exists no one prior to him to examine him. He is immeasurable, since there was no one prior to him to measure him. He is invisible, since no one saw him. He is eternal, since he exists eternally. He is ineffable, since no one was able to comprehend him to speak about him. He is unnameable, since there is no one prior to him to give him a name."- Apocryphon of John

 

[ImaginaryDay]

the thread is about the OT saying that the Messiah was going to be God Himself.
can u address the op?

Seems he is addressing it, saying it's false. Welcome to UT...
(subscribing...)