God Is Neither Random Nor Capricious In Whom He Hardens Or Hates

[Strong in Him]

What does any of that have to do with hardening of hearts?

My first question was to ask why a God who IS love would harden people's hearts?

Maybe after the 4th or 5th time they had seen his power and been told his will, but still rejected him - like Pharoah. Although he hardened his heart first. But I don't believe he generally decides to harden folks' hearts just because - that is not love.

 

[Mr. M]

My first question was to ask why a God who IS love would harden people's hearts?

Maybe after the 4th or 5th time they had seen his power and been told his will, but still rejected him - like Pharoah. Although he hardened his heart first. But I don't believe he generally decides to harden folks' hearts just because - that is not love.

Thank you, that is the central point of the thread. When God hardens a heart, He is fully justified in doing so. Hence, the title of the thread.
Man routinely places himself in that standing, for example:
Mark 16:14

 

[Strong in Him]

Thank you, that is the central point of the thread. When God hardens a heart, He is fully justified in doing so. Hence, the title of the thread.
Man routinely places himself in that standing, for example:
Mark 16:14

Yes, but I said, "Maybe" - and only after the person had clearly seen God's power on several occasions and still rejected him.
Rather like when Jesus said that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven - the Pharisees could SEE Jesus driving out demons, and yet attributed his deeds to the devil, rather than honouring God.

 

[Mr. M]

Yes, but I said, "Maybe" - and only after the person had clearly seen God's power on several occasions and still rejected him.
Rather like when Jesus said that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven - the Pharisees could SEE Jesus driving out demons, and yet attributed his deeds to the devil, rather than honouring God.

I am not sure where you come up with this fourth or fifth occasion to see His power. The Pharisees hearts were hardened when they rejected the baptism of John, before seeing any miracles. This was fully set forth in the OP, post #1.

 

[Strong in Him]

I am not sure where you come up with this fourth or fifth occasion to see His power. The Pharisees hearts were hardened when they rejected the baptism of John, before seeing any miracles. This was fully set forth in the OP, post #1.

I was thinking of the plagues of Egypt.
For the first 4 plagues Scripture says either "Pharoah's heart was hard" or "Pharoah hardened his heart."
For the final 6 Scripture says "God hardened Pharoah's heart."

And not ALL Pharisees rejected John's baptism and Jesus. Nicodemus was a Pharisee, so was Simon who offered Jesus hospitality in Luke 7:36.

 

[Guojing]

glad you picked up on that, I do think at this time there were Jewish Christians, Paul was trying to make them Christians who were also Jews. There was still this huge difference between Jews and Gentiles in Rome.

If you are a Jew who believed the gospel that Paul preached (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and believed that you are dead to the Law of Moses (Romans 7:4), as well as dead to circumcision (Galatians 5:2), then you also belong to the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor gentile. You are a Christian.

But you are NOT the remnant of believing Israel, or the little flock, that Paul was trying to explain to in Romans 9-11.

Those Jews who belong to that group, are still zealous of the Law and circumcision (Acts 21:18-24), and under the ministry of James, Cephas and John in (Galatians 2:7-9).

As I have said repeatedly, those Jews do not call themselves "Christians".

 

[Mr. M]

If you are a Jew who believed the gospel that Paul preached (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and believed that you are dead to the Law of Moses (Romans 7:4), as well as dead to circumcision (Galatians 5:2), then you also belong to the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor gentile. You are a Christian.

But you are NOT the remnant of believing Israel, or the little flock, that Paul was trying to explain to in Romans 9-11.

Those Jews who belong to that group, are still zealous of the Law and circumcision (Acts 21:18-24), and under the ministry of James, Cephas and John in (Galatians 2:7-9).

As I have said repeatedly, those Jews do not call themselves "Christians".

Are you actually saying that the remnant Paul speaks of, while never referring to them as "the little flock" are not a part of the Body of Christ? It is obvious they did not call themselves Christian, they did not speak Greek.
Galatians 5:2 is addressing Greeks. Paul never told Jews not to circumcise their children. This was a false accusation that was addressed in Acts 21:
18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

Not tricky at all. Why are you so confused?

 

[Mr. M]

But you are NOT the remnant of believing Israel, or the little flock, that Paul was trying to explain to in Romans 9-11.

There is no such thing as a special group of Jews called the "little flock".
John 10:
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[Guojing]

Are you actually saying that the remnant Paul speaks of, while never referring to them as "the little flock" are not a part of the Body of Christ? It is obvious they did not call themselves Christian, they did not speak Greek.
Galatians 5:2 is addressing Greeks. Paul never told Jews not to circumcise their children. This was a false accusation that was addressed in Acts 21:
18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

Not tricky at all. Why are you so confused?

Yes, they are not part of the Body of Christ.

That is what I am saying.

As for Acts 21:18-25, my point was not that Paul told the remnant not to circumcise their children.

My point using that passage, is that the little flock/remnant are still under the Law of Moses

 

[Guojing]

There is no such thing as a special group of Jews called the "little flock".
John 10:
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Galatians 2:7-9, as well as Acts 21:18-25, made a clear distinction among the little flock, which yes, John 10 applies to, and the Body of Christ.

Do you not notice that Paul never called us, in Romans to Philemon, sheep, nor claim that Christ is our shepherd?

 

[Aaron112]

God Indeed Does What-so-ever He Pleases To Do.

So then, Why Won't He Join a Forum ?

or maybe, Why Would God Be Banned From Forum ?

 

[Mr. M]

Galatians 2:7-9, as well as Acts 21:18-25, made a clear distinction among the little flock, which yes, John 10 applies to, and the Body of Christ.

Do you not notice that Paul never called us, in Romans to Philemon, sheep, nor claim that Christ is our shepherd?

Paul taught what he was given to teach by the Holy Spirit. You most certainly do not. If you admit that John 10 applies to the Body of Christ, why do you insist on teaching this made up doctrine of "the little flock" rather than One Flock, One Shepherd.
Are you among the Radical Messianists who teach that Paul contradicted Christ? There is no significance whatsoever to you pointing out that Paul does not call us? (you should speak for yourself)sheep, and that Christ is not our shepherd???
Acts 20:
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. (One Church, One Spirit, One Shepherd)
29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Which flock is Paul speaking of here? What perverse doctrines do we find rising up on Christian Forums?
Who are these savage wolves drawing away disciples to themselves?
Who has discipled you in this non existent "little flock" doctrine?

The Ephesian Elders Exhorted​

17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church.
18 And when they had come to him, he said to them: “You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you,
19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews;
20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house,
21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
22 And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there,
23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.
24 But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
25 “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.

 

[Mr. M]

God Indeed Does What-so-ever He Pleases To Do.

So then, Why Won't He Join a Forum ?

or maybe, Why Would God Be Banned From Forum ?

God IS THE forum!
I Am THAT I Am

 

[Aaron112]

God IS THE forum!
I Am THAT I Am

Not the visible, not what is seen with the 'worldly' eyes , not what is heard with the 'earthly' mind or ears.

 

[Mr. M]

Not the visible, not what is seen with the 'worldly' eyes , not what is heard with the 'earthly' mind or ears.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,
to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven,
to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect.

What I receive from the Lord during my devotional time, I present to the forum.
If people (and there are many) don't bother reading the OP, and just assume they
know the topic from the title and start voicing opinions, there is not much I can do.

 

[Mr. M]

I don’t think John 6 refers to this but rather to the Father and Son relationship and salvation plan. (The immediate context offers meaning)

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.

I agree from the immediate context that the Lord was speaking of Himself.
For the sake of the OP, the Spirit is particular in stating:
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

The point being that to reject John bore serious consequences, as the OP demonstrates.

 

[Guojing]

Paul taught what he was given to teach by the Holy Spirit. You most certainly do not. If you admit that John 10 applies to the Body of Christ, why do you insist on teaching this made up doctrine of "the little flock" rather than One Flock, One Shepherd.
Are you among the Radical Messianists who teach that Paul contradicted Christ? There is no significance whatsoever to you pointing out that Paul does not call us? (you should speak for yourself)sheep, and that Christ is not our shepherd???
Acts 20:
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. (One Church, One Spirit, One Shepherd)
29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Which flock is Paul speaking of here? What perverse doctrines do we find rising up on Christian Forums?
Who are these savage wolves drawing away disciples to themselves?
Who has discipled you in this non existent "little flock" doctrine?

I knew you would use that Acts 20 passage, so I even bolded Romans to Philemon for you, before you did.

Using Acts to form Christian doctrines, as I said, is not advisable.

But I do understand the universal appeal of Psalms 23 so if you want to insist that Jesus is our shepherd, I am fine.

Its not salvific anyway (Romans 14:5), so I can certainly agree to disagree with you.

FYI, I said John 10 applies to the little flock, not the Body of Christ.

 

[Mr. M]

Using Acts to form Christian doctrines, as I said, is not advisable.

Says who? The only problem with Acts is that men call it
the Acts of the Apostles. Luke, who authored the book,
chronicles the work of the Holy Spirit in the early church.
Does the Gospel of Luke work for you? It does for me. Pay attention!
The Holy Spirit is mentioned 41 times in Acts. More than all four
Gospels combined. More than in all the epistles combined. Every
word is post resurrection. The only reason to not apply what is found
there is that I know for a fact that every time some Gentile calling himself
Messianic tries to manipulate Paul's letters for their doctrine, the book
of Acts undermines their doctrines consistently. Agree to disagree!!
You better believe that. Anyone who advises Christians to avoid that
book in understanding doctrine is denying divine inspiration for a critical work.
The biggest problem with your presence on this thread is that not one word
that you have posted was ever even relevant to the actual topic.
I have experienced this directly over a dozen times. You come
on threads, and without any regard to the OP promote your own
doctrines, including this "little flock" nonsense that does not exist
in the NT. Is there a YouTube video that you could refer to me
where I could find out more about it.
One Flock, One Shepherd!
One Flock, One Shepherd!
One Flock, One Shepherd!
No one in their right mind would believe anything just because you said so.
Agree to disagree? I would much prefer that you would promote your own
ideas on your own thread. Please, originate one now. I have a great title,
The Little Flock. I look forward to a detailed explanation, not a redundant
referencing without any scriptural support. At least then it would be on topic,
although not for long. The expression is used only once by Jesus as a term
of affection, and to use it to blatantly contradict John 10, and divide the
Body of Christ, after Paul makes clear that the work of the Holy Spirit
is to break down all walls of separation. One thing I know for sure is that
Jewish Rabbis were Paul's most vocal, powerful, and yes, even violent opposition.
That anyone would expect anything less from Jewish Rabbi's in these days
would be hopelessly naive. They can call themselves Messianic believers
all they want, but if they deride and rewrite Paul's doctrines by manipulation
of his letters, while advising their disciples to avoid Acts as tricky? Fill up then
the full measure of their Fathers.

 

[Guojing]

Says who? The only problem with Acts is that men call it
the Acts of the Apostles. Luke, who authored the book,
chronicles the work of the Holy Spirit in the early church.
Does the Gospel of Luke work for you? It does for me. Pay attention!
The Holy Spirit is mentioned 41 times in Acts. More than all four
Gospels combined. More than in all the epistles combined. Every
word is post resurrection. The only reason to not apply what is found
there is that I know for a fact that every time some Gentile calling himself
Messianic tries to manipulate Paul's letters for their doctrine, the book
of Acts undermines their doctrines consistently. Agree to disagree!!
You better believe that. Anyone who advises Christians to avoid that
book in understanding doctrine is denying divine inspiration for a critical work.
The biggest problem with your presence on this thread is that not one word
that you have posted was ever even relevant to the actual topic.
I have experienced this directly over a dozen times. You come
on threads, and without any regard to the OP promote your own
doctrines, including this "little flock" nonsense that does not exist
in the NT. Is there a YouTube video that you could refer to me
where I could find out more about it.
One Flock, One Shepherd!
One Flock, One Shepherd!
One Flock, One Shepherd!
No one in their right mind would believe anything just because you said so.
Agree to disagree? I would much prefer that you would promote your own
ideas on your own thread. Please, originate one now. I have a great title,
The Little Flock. I look forward to a detailed explanation, not a redundant
referencing without any scriptural support. At least then it would be on topic,
although not for long. The expression is used only once by Jesus as a term
of affection, and to use it to blatantly contradict John 10, and divide the
Body of Christ, after Paul makes clear that the work of the Holy Spirit
is to break down all walls of separation. One thing I know for sure is that
Jewish Rabbis were Paul's most vocal, powerful, and yes, even violent opposition.
That anyone would expect anything less from Jewish Rabbi's in these days
would be hopelessly naive. They can call themselves Messianic believers
all they want, but if they deride and rewrite Paul's doctrines by manipulation
of his letters, while advising their disciples to avoid Acts as tricky? Fill up then
the full measure of their Fathers.

So, at the very least, you do agree with me that in Romans to Philemon, the Body of Christ is not called sheep, nor did Paul ever stated that Jesus is our shepherd.

Alright, at least we are clear about that.

FYI, my first reply in this thread, was actually to another person regarding his view about the Jewish audience in Romans 9-11.

Somehow, you take offense at what I said to him. That is beyond my control.

 

[Mr. M]

So, at the very least, you do agree with me that in Romans to Philemon, the Body of Christ is not called sheep, nor did Paul ever stated that Jesus is our shepherd.

Alright, at least we are clear about that.

FYI, my first reply in this thread, was actually to another person regarding his view about the Jewish audience in Romans 9-11.

Somehow, you take offense at what I said to him. That is beyond my control.

Dude, you said that Jewish Christian is an oxymoron. That's not something I took offense from, it was just dumb. If you want to be desperately senseless and tell yourself Paul never called Jesus our Shepherd as if that means something, go for it. You want to fabricate doctrine from a few letters apart from the full testimony of the scriptures, and exclude Acts because it is tricky, that is beyond my control. I just find it astonishing that you think anyone is buying it.