OSAS: Can salvation be lost?

[theFijian]

It is truly amazing how yall OSAS folks think one can say a prayer, continue living like hell(nightclubs, strip clubs, homosexuality, rape people, kill people, abort babies, incest, witchcraft, devil worship, hatred, lust, racism, an unforgiving heart, etc etc etc) but yet still be saved and on the way to God's Heaven.

Why do people keep misrepresenting the OSAS doctrine like this? What did Paul say in Romans 6?

'What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?'

....likewise as he says in Gal 5

'You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.'

..and as Paul goes on and lists some of the things you mention above he condemns those who indulge in these things as having no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:26 - Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit

P.S. Can anyone find me a verse that says Grace covers our future sins? In my 15 years of bible studies and seminary i have failed to find it yet.

Have you never read Hebrews in seminary?

Heb 10:12 - But when this priest (Christ) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God

But yet, i remember Peter saying we are forgiven for our "PAST" sins. So, how does our past sins equal our future sins? It dont! Paul said to die daily to our flesh, and to repent daily!

Can you produce the quote to back up your assertion?

every blessing,

Andy

 

[The Midge]

Perhaps we can try and move on a bit.

There are at least three theories of some merit (even if the last is unique to myself.)

1. Those who are saved are always saved, and will never fall from grace. God will give them all the help they need to see then through to the end. ONAS but those who do fall way where never really Christians a consistent Christian life style is evidence of salvation.
2. OSNAS, those who commit a sin that is grave enough (though the definition of what is grave enough is fuzzy) lose their salvation.
3. OSAS because once we a justified there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation. We do lose our reward in heaven if we return to sin. Thus if I were to decovert tomorrow and life a life of sin until part of me would be Spiritually dead and lost on the day of judgment.
   Now how should we council someone who has backslid, de converted or fallen into sin?

I think we would all agree that such a person needs to realize how serious a problem they have, seek Gods forgiveness, repent, that is live our life in accordance with God's will, and not to sin again. By rededicating their life to God the corresponding events happen:

1. A true salvation of those who had not actually been saved in the first place.
2. Returning to a state of grace for those who had lost their salvation. God gives them their salvation back.
3. A return to discipleship and a Christian life where upon sanctification can continue. Reward in heaven is being earned once again and the person is no longer in a state of being spiritually dead.
   We cannot determine or decide if they are saved or not, for that is judging, and only God can judge.

Now another related issue.

• I have experienced and have heard about a time that has been variously described as:
• A desert experience
  Testing
• The Dark Night of the Soul (St John of the Divine)
• Spiritual attack
• Trough Periods (C S Lewis, Screwtape Letters)

There are times in our lives when we feel 'dry'. There is less joy, perhaps after the euphoria of conversion fades. Prayer, Worship, Bible Study and other spiritual disciplines become much harder and more burdensome. We feel less spiritual and God seems further away. Church loses it's attraction. We may begin to have doubts or be forced to re-evaluate our faith perhaps due to external things such as a split in our fellowship or perhaps it is due to the different stages in our life as we get older. We are weaker or less protected more vulnerable and some times it feels as though the conviction of belonging to God and confession that Jesus is our Lord God and Saviour only just hangs on by a thread.

These times Screwtape (The fictionalised demonic correspondent C S Lewis uses to expose the Devils tricks of his trade) describes this as the "Law of Undulation". Are state of mind constantly changes and has peak and troughs. God uses these times to (in Screwtapes words and point of view) " ..to fill the universe with a lot of loathsome little replicas of Himself- creatures whose life, on it's miniature scale, will be qualitively like His own, not because He has absorbed them [that is used us as a food source] but because their wills freely conform to His. We want cattle who can finally become food; he wants servant who can finally become sons.

These times happen to us all, and if they have not happened to you then you are either young or unusual. Once you have been through these times you realize that they have often been a period of growth or maturity. Yet there may be a temptation to dispare, and a few give into (as we must all acknowledge were are capable of sinning). God is employing a high risk strategy.

I testify to the reality of the circumstances I have described. So my question is how does your position on perseverance of the saints or assurance of salvation address someone who is in a difficult phase of spiritual life and may be having to face up to challenges that go to the core of their beliefs?

 

[speakingthetruth777]

Why do people keep misrepresenting the OSAS doctrine like this? What did Paul say in Romans 6?

'What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?'

....likewise as he says in Gal 5

'You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.'

..and as Paul goes on and lists some of the things you mention above he condemns those who indulge in these things as having no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:26 - Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit


Have you never read Hebrews in seminary?

Heb 10:12 - But when this priest (Christ) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God

Can you produce the quote to back up your assertion?

every blessing,

Andy

So Andy, how then after quoting Paul, how can one say we can still sin without losing salvation? Why the warnings?
Heb 10:12 "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;"

That verse does NOT say our future sins are covered without repentance. That verse just says Jesus's sacrifice was for the sins of the world. He offered sacrifice for all sins, but is "ALL" saved? Can we be saved without repentance simply because of his sacrifice?

I would also like to know what scripture people get it from that we lose one reward for this sin, and a different reward for another sin. Another unbiblical man made tradition.
Thanks​

www.arkwebshost.com/biblestudies/joevberry3/ ​

 

[speakingthetruth777]

The proponents of OSAS is always contradicting themselves. One minute yall say nothing a person can do causes him to lose salvation, then the next minute yall are quick to judge by saying "they were never saved to begin with." Which is it? It cant be both.
Thanks

 

[Believes Gods Sovereignity]

The proponents of OSAS is always contradicting themselves. One minute yall say nothing a person can do causes him to lose salvation, then the next minute yall are quick to judge by saying "they were never saved to begin with." Which is it? It cant be both.
Thanks

but when the bible tells us that "No one shall take them from my fathers hand" It means that no one will be able to remove us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39 So with that said, we know, that if a person claims to be saved, and still follows the way of the world, and openly rejects Christ, there no way he can be saved, at that point in time. "My sheep hear my voice."

 

[speakingthetruth777]

Notice it says no one else---Does it say sin cant? Wonder why? Paul never said sin or ourself couldnt take ourself out did he?
Thanks

www.arkwebshost.com/biblestudies/joevberry3/

 

[Believes Gods Sovereignity]

So Andy, how then after quoting Paul, how can one say we can still sin without losing salvation? Why the warnings?
Heb 10:12 "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;"

That verse does NOT say our future sins are covered without repentance. That verse just says Jesus's sacrifice was for the sins of the world. He offered sacrifice for all sins, but is "ALL" saved? Can we be saved without repentance simply because of his sacrifice?​

First nowhere in that verse does it say "for the whole world" second, our future sins are covered by the blood of Christ. How many of your sins were in the future when Christ was killed? Awnser me that one and see if you can still say this.​

 

[speakingthetruth777]

First nowhere in that verse does it say "for the whole world" second, our future sins are covered by the blood of Christ. How many of your sins were in the future when Christ was killed? Awnser me that one and see if you can still say this.

Who's sins did he die for? Did he not die for the sins of the ENTIRE world? Are we saved without repentance? Are we? According to how you use that verse, you can say we are saved since he died although we may not repent. Once again he died for ALL sins, but are ALL saved?

 

[The Midge]

Who's sins did he die for? Did he not die for the sins of the ENTIRE world? Are we saved without repentance? Are we? According to how you use that verse, you can say we are saved since he died although we may not repent. Once again he died for ALL sins, but are ALL saved?

The question should be:
Is repentance a requirement for salvation i.e. something you have to do to earn it?
or
Is repentance a sign of Justification (that salvation has happened?)

 

[Believes Gods Sovereignity]

Who's sins did he die for? Did he not die for the sins of the ENTIRE world? Are we saved without repentance? Are we? According to how you use that verse, you can say we are saved since he died although we may not repent. Once again he died for ALL sins, but are ALL saved?

Isaiah says this in chapter 53 "For the SINS OF MY PEOPLE WAS HE STRUCK DOWN." Notice that if you will. Christ died for Gods people. Who are Gods people. The jews. But notice this. When we are saved, we are sown in with abraham's promise and we become a part of HIS OWN. So christ died for those who were Gods own people. And no we are not saved without repentance. But what is repentance. IT IS TURNING FROM SIN. That is when a man truly is saved. That is when a man will never be lost to the depths of hell ever again.

 

[speakingthetruth777]

Isaiah says this in chapter 53 "For the SINS OF MY PEOPLE WAS HE STRUCK DOWN." Notice that if you will. Christ died for Gods people. Who are Gods people. The jews. But notice this. When we are saved, we are sown in with abraham's promise and we become a part of HIS OWN. So christ died for those who were Gods own people. And no we are not saved without repentance. But what is repentance. IT IS TURNING FROM SIN. That is when a man truly is saved. That is when a man will never be lost to the depths of hell ever again.

Your right--Repentance is TURNING from sin. So then how can one be saved when still willfully continually habitually committing sins without remorse or without trying to abstain from sin?
God Bless

 

[speakingthetruth777]

This guy here has a few good articles on OSAS. He did a poll in several churches that preaches OSAS. The poll question was "DO you think OSAS teaches you its ok to sin?" Do you know what the percentage was out of 1300 polled? It was 98%! Over 1200 believes its ok to sin! So, how can we say OSAS is a doctrine from God? ITS NOT! When will we learn to FEAR God? Do we fear God by thinking sin is ok? Oh my, i may lose a reward or two, but so what, i will get to Heaven...How ignorant and childish to think like that.
God Bless
The website link is below. He has lots of articles about salvation and other interests. All articles are strictly biblical. None from man made traditions.

www.arkwebshost.com/biblestudies/joevberry3/

 

[oakraven65]

Opponent to the Doctrine of Election have really few arguments..

Noone is able to tell me what I could do in order to be saved ? Justice is imparted by faith in Christ - without any relationship to our merits..

Then how will we live.. Apostle Paul in his 12th of the Romains exhorts the community to be renewed..
True faith leads to a renewal of the life..
What is the message of the Gospel :

The Law leads to nothing, culpability or legalism.. In all the countries where adulterers are lapidated there are more and more adulterers, where the robbers have the hand cut .. There is more and more robbers.. The Law has lead nobody to perfection .. Romans 5..
The consequence is we live by grace, not by the "law", Apostle John , talking to the community says two things :
- I write to you in order you don't sin ..
- But if someone has sinned -

So he writes to people who are and believers and sinners.. And in the actual day , the death of Jesus Christ is purifies us of all sins.. The Epistle of John are in the latest manuscript of the new testament.. So the epistle relates to actual mean of grace..
"If someone has sinned .. " It is good for today for us for our present and future..

The conception of the alliance is at stake :
- In the Old Testament , God is Holy and demands people be Holy ,there is a Code, the law - and everybody must inforce this ..
- it is a failure , and we have good-conscience-partial legalists like Pharisees in Jesus Time , (washing the outside of the bowls)
- In the New Testament our relation is to Jesus who is the Incarnated Word of God and our mediator to the Father.. Our actual mediator.. When Apostle Paul Writes to the Christians he writes to people who are seen "in christ" - Thru Christ..

- The christian walk is long, leading from the conversion to the glorification (perfection after the final resurrection)
- In this walk Jesus is our companion and the condition of the success are provided, we are saved by grace..

- Grace is enough for salvation, after there is everyday life .. Everyday life needs our cooperation - We are co-workers with God..
- In the Philippians Apostle Paul asserts :
- God gives us the will and the possibility to do
- we have to exert our efforts to walk in the right way as reconnaissance
Not one truth but Both are true ..

- The grace , based on a true conversion is enough, even the tiniest faith, sincere will be honoured by God ..

---------------------------------------
Some people understand faith like a kind of works (making a prayer or a thing like that) it is an underestimated understanding of faith..
It is not "magic" "tell this prayer and you will be saved" (That's pagan religion , not christianity)
------------------------------------------
Faith in the 12th chapter of the romans (for example) lead to a renewal of the whole life..

So if someone is Saved he is saved, till the last day, and God is faithful and gives him final perseverance ..

--------------------------------------------------------------------
The case of the Hebrews / The Epistle to Hebrews is written to communities composed from former Jews..
The communuty is discouraged, a lot of efforts, and nothing. No return from the Lord,no restoration of the Kingdom of Israel..
So the author thru the richness of Judaism recalls them their vocation in Christ.
According to commentators :
- he tries to prevent, he gives severe warnings (there is no way back)
- But it doesnot mean that these things will happen..
If I say to my son "Put your hand in the fire and you will burn"
- It doesnot mean "My will is my son be burned if he puts his hands in the fire",
- It means "I don't want my son be burned" and "I will take it off quickly if necessary"

Jesus has promised " Nothing can take them off my hand", Martin Luther has said "When they hear this promiss, the devils are in rage"..

 

[Believes Gods Sovereignity]

Your right--Repentance is TURNING from sin. So then how can one be saved when still willfully continually habitually committing sins without remorse or without trying to abstain from sin?
God Bless

As the post before mine mentions The bible says that "When we do sin we have one who speaks to the father in our defense." I think that when one refuses to try to abstain from sin, as i did for so long. And they have accepted Christ, it is our job as rooted christians to point out that God has called us to repent and turn from our sins. Does that help?

 

[theFijian]

So Andy, how then after quoting Paul, how can one say we can still sin without losing salvation? Why the warnings?​

Heb 10:12 "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;"​

That verse does NOT say our future sins are covered without repentance. That verse just says Jesus's sacrifice was for the sins of the world. He offered sacrifice for all sins, but is "ALL" saved? Can we be saved without repentance simply because of his sacrifice?​

I would also like to know what scripture people get it from that we lose one reward for this sin, and a different reward for another sin. Another unbiblical man made tradition.​

Thanks

www.arkwebshost.com/biblestudies/joevberry3/ ​

​

​

Thanks for your reply speakingthetruth777. I have a couple of quick questions for you as I don't have time to reply in length to your post (I shall endeavour to do so tomorrow);
​

If OSAS is not true doctrine, then at what point can I lose my salvation? The first unrepented sin? When a certain number of these sins stack up? Or are there a set of particularly heinous sins of which if guilty and they are not repented of, I will lose my salvation?
​

Does God give us a set period of time after committing a sin in which to repent of it, then after that we lose our salvation?
​

If I lose my salvation because of an unrepented sin, can i then gain it again at a later date? Do I do this just by praying for forgiveness?
​

Can I yo-yo like this between salvation and a state of 'lost-salvation' till my dieing day?
​

Wouldn't I live my life in a constant state of worry that there was a sin I committed sometime, somewhere that I haven't actively repented of?
​

Doesn't this make God out to be nit-picky? 'Ooh you repented of Sin A but not Sin B!'
​

Isn't it true that OSAS is biblical and Calvin's doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is completely scriptural and without it the believer can have no assurance of their salvation?​

blessings,​

Andy​

 

[speakingthetruth777]

[/left]

Thanks for your reply speakingthetruth777. I have a couple of quick questions for you as I don't have time to reply in length to your post (I shall endeavour to do so tomorrow);
​

If OSAS is not true doctrine, then at what point can I lose my salvation? The first unrepented sin? When a certain number of these sins stack up? Or are there a set of particularly heinous sins of which if guilty and they are not repented of, I will lose my salvation?
​

Does God give us a set period of time after committing a sin in which to repent of it, then after that we lose our salvation?
​

If I lose my salvation because of an unrepented sin, can i then gain it again at a later date? Do I do this just by praying for forgiveness?
​

Can I yo-yo like this between salvation and a state of 'lost-salvation' till my dieing day?
​

Wouldn't I live my life in a constant state of worry that there was a sin I committed sometime, somewhere that I haven't actively repented of?
​

Doesn't this make God out to be nit-picky? 'Ooh you repented of Sin A but not Sin B!'
​

Isn't it true that OSAS is biblical and Calvin's doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is completely scriptural and without it the believer can have no assurance of their salvation?​

blessings,​

Andy​

I dont have time right now to go into detail. I will say you Quoted John Calvin. There is more to what he said then you think. If you will do a study on what he said about preservation--he said we are preserved if we obey. Meaning we cant be plucked out in obedience. He went on to say, disobedient saints will NOT be preserved. I have done a complete study on it so have other Seminary students and scholars.

 

[speakingthetruth777]

By the way OSAS is not biblical. Its unbiblical. Unless you misuse a few verses. We wont find anywhere in scripture where sin is ok, wont find anywhere in scripture where God says you lose this reward for this sin and so forth like OSAS proponents teach.
You find warnings for Christians all over the old and new testament. Even the Galatians FELL from Grace. It doesnt matter what they did or how they did it, the Bottom line is they FELL FROM GRACE.
In revelation it talks about Blotting out names from the book of Life? Tell me, when does a name get written in the book of Life? After Salvation, so in order for it to be blotted out, that person HAD to have been saved at one time. There is no other logical explanation for this.
God Bless
www.arkwebshost.com/biblestudies/joevberry3/

 

[The Midge]

By the way OSAS is not biblical. Its unbiblical. Unless you misuse a few verses. We wont find anywhere in scripture where sin is ok, wont find anywhere in scripture where God says you lose this reward for this sin and so forth like OSAS proponents teach.
You find warnings for Christians all over the old and new testament. Even the Galatians FELL from Grace. It doesnt matter what they did or how they did it, the Bottom line is they FELL FROM GRACE.
In revelation it talks about Blotting out names from the book of Life? Tell me, when does a name get written in the book of Life? After Salvation, so in order for it to be blotted out, that person HAD to have been saved at one time. There is no other logical explanation for this.
God Bless
www.arkwebshost.com/biblestudies/joevberry3/http://www.arkwebshost.com/biblestudies/joevberry3/

Your argument falls down because OSAS doesn't say sin is OK. Just becaues another interpretation of a verse is not the same of your doesn't mean that it is misusing the verse it means they have a different understanding about what it means. Attributing ideas to those of another opinion is not appreciated here or in forums such as general Apologetics.

Please reference where the Galations fell from grace. I would kike to read around what they had fallen from and what the consequences are and if there are any other explanations other than your interpretation. You find warnings all over the NT, true. I don't think they are about loss of salvation.

Regarding the book of life, this is a highly pictorial image. Everything that lives is recorded in it, and they are blotted out of it when they die. They are written into the book at life at birth if not the beginning of creation. So at the day of final judgement those who never have believed will be blotted out. All those who are justified through no other reason than accepting Christ will not be blotted out. There may be a multitude or other interpretations to it including physical death.

Another side question: Do you consider Joe V Berry to be the final authority on the interpretation of Scripture? I have never heard of him, but would take anything that is said by someone who considers their interpretation to be the final word in any matter with enough salt to fill the Dea Sea.

I can't say I have read the site because it is so badly laid out as to be intelligable.

 

[JVD]

at what point can I lose my salvation? The first unrepented sin? When a certain number of these sins stack up? Or are there a set of particularly heinous sins of which if guilty and they are not repented of, I will lose my salvation?

Does God give us a set period of time after committing a sin in which to repent of it, then after that we lose our salvation?

If I lose my salvation because of an unrepented sin, can i then gain it again at a later date? Do I do this just by praying for forgiveness?

Can I yo-yo like this between salvation and a state of 'lost-salvation' till my dieing day?

Wouldn't I live my life in a constant state of worry that there was a sin I committed sometime, somewhere that I haven't actively repented of?

Doesn't this make God out to be nit-picky? 'Ooh you repented of Sin A but not Sin B!'

Excellent questions...These are the same questions I have had of those who lose their salvation. Only yours are more clearly stated.

I have really only had one honest answer to those questions. I think it was a good answer in that it helped me understand how a christian could live with the ax constantly hanging over his head. I disagree with the his conclusions, however.

He defined holiness and sin differently than you and I do. He said there is God's holiness and man's holiness. Man is not expected to reach the level of God's holiness, we are only expected to be holy as a man can be holy.

Sin is defined as making a conscious decision to disobey God. A white lie that you make without thinking about it isn't sin, anger isn't sin, pride isn't sin, laziness isn't necessarily sin. These character flaws could become sin if you realized at the time that you were going to act in way that went against God and went ahead and did it anyway.

So he feels christians can in fact be holy and sinless, by those definitions of holiness and sinfullness.

I don't know if this is a common way of looking at things but it at least helped me understand how some of those type of christians understand things differently.

 

[jbarker28]

Hello all,

I don't have specific responses to anyones posts... but I guess I believe that it is possible to 'lose' salvation. I believe that true salvation, which comes with Godly Repentence, can not be earned, and it is most definately not something we have in our power to achieve... Only God can give Godly Repentence, and only God can give true salvation...

In the real world, this equates to a fundamental change in our hearts, from a self-centered, me-first attitude, to a God-centered, love-others attitude... Its not something that happens over night, but is a process that can takes years of work, struggle and commitment... And as we progress and begin to truly love God and others before ourselves, we find our very natures changed into something new... something that we could never have changed into on our own...

I believe that this process is fundamental to salvation, and that 'salvation' is not as simple as being baptized or claiming to believe in Jesus (which is the beginning of this process), but instead, is a continually evolving relationship with God, which we commit to on a daily basis, and in which we learn to honestly love God and desire to obey him in all things...

I think people have to remember that our salvation comes because Jesus will be our advocate and will 'vouch' for us with the Father... so our salvation then is based on whether Jesus is happy with the fruit we have produced as professing disciples... His death on the cross, and his obedience to God unto death, is what allows him to tell God who are his people, and who are not...

However, we must remember that Jesus said that there would be many who would claim to come in his name, who he would deny before the Father, because he does not KNOW THEM!!! To know Jesus, we have to have a personal relationship with him. To have a personal relationship with him, we have to obey him and love him. To obey him is to is to serve and bear fruit, to love him is central to learning how to truly love others. Both are fundamental to truly living in the spirit and tasting of its life giving waters.

If we can acknowledge one thing about God, something that is born out again and again in both the NT & OT, it is that God expects people to WORK in this life. We can not EARN our salvation; it is a free gift. But once we are 'saved', we must maintain it, or we risk throwing it all away. God will forgive us when we repent, but we must remember that true repentence is His gift, and if we are careless with that gift too often, we find it harder and harder to find that grace once more...

In faith and peace,

Joshua