OSAS: Can salvation be lost?

[AVBunyan]

Not if you have to sin everyday.

Song bird - I'm not sure you understand what sin is.

 

[HisWordisTruth]

Good point AV.

James 4:17
'Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.'

 

[The Midge]

I'm probably OSAS.

Having got that out of the way that continued sin is a very, very, very harmful, stupid, wasteful, reckless, dumb, hurtfull, foolish, crazy, unscriptural, ungodly and evil thing to do. On no account is it ok nor does the OSAS doctrine permit it IMO. Why? Because the consequences are very real. Whilst we can not lose salvation (which is a decision of God who is very stubborn once he made His mind up) except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Mt 12:31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.) which amounts to a knowing and deliberate rejection of God i.e. not wanting to be saved but rather to go to hell instead (at least this is the best understanding I can manage on the subject).

It all comes down to this:

REV 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Whilst our salvation has nothing to do with what we have done our reward, or lack of, does. Therfore if we like a sinfull life we lose or fail to gain it. We escape death or hell by the skin of our teath and end up in heaven like a refugee who lost all his possesions. All the time we spend living a Godless life we lose this reward. All the time we walk with God we build it up. Like the tree analogy at the beginning of the thread; it can only grow if it is nutured and cared for, it gets water, nutrients and light. If a tree is starved of these it never fully recouvers Thus the question is how big and healthy is our tree when it is time for it to be planted in the garden of paradise? It is not if the tree is to be rejected and destroyed. Yet if the tree is stunted and withered it will not contribute much the garden. This is a tragedy for both us and the God who loves us.

 

[billwald]

Only those who conform to First John can "know" that they are saved.

 

[Eusebios]

Salvation is a process, we can stop short of completing it. Though I may have once embraced a OSAS viewpoint, but no longer. Continuing to work out my salvation with fear and trembling;
His unworth servant,
Eusebios

 

[Heartman]

There is little foundation for the way the doctrine of eternal security is taught and practised. It more often that not liscenses sin, tolerates disobedience and twists away a healthy fear of God. Not good!

Heartman

 

[Curt]

OSAS is entirely a man made doctrine which can only be supported by private interpretation of Scripture to fit the doctrine, and adding to or taking away from what they say, and taking them out of context.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I do not agree 100% with OSAS.... more like 90%.
In order for you as a Christian to become lost, you have to be in complete control of your faculties and know absolutely what you are doing.

Refusing OSAS outright is glorifying the power of sin over the power of God.

 

[JVD]

OK...I could maybe buy the possibility that a person, knowing full well that he was turning his back on God, could renounce his relationship to his Father and cleave to another. I would have a hard time with this because this is making that person more powerful than God, but God could give man that much freedom.

However, for sin, that everyone committs, to automatically cause our relationship to cease without that active renunciation, makes God too small and weakens the work Christ did for us on the cross.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I guess what gets me with the whole OSAS camp vs. OSNAS camp debate is that there seems to be a huge misunderstanding about OSAS churches and what they preach / teach. (BTW, I'm in the OSAS camp)

I have seen on here in a few threads and even today in the Bible study we do at lunch here at work that there are some misconceptions on the part of OSNAS regarding what OSAS chruches preach.

It seems like most of the evidence I have seen from OSNAS that OSAS teach you can "sin all you want it's ok" is pretty anecdotal, a quote here or there from a high visibility preacher (that may or may not be in context) or a poll of a few thousand church members (notice I did not say Christians).

I start getting the impression that one denomination is sterotyping another. Now is that Biblical and Christlike?

I enjoy the debate, but I have come to the conclusion that neither side is going to get the other to budge, and both sides have just as much Biblical evidence to support their argument. It comes down to faith.

I do however take issue with the broad inaccurate generalizations about certain denominations preach its ok to sin and so on.

BTW - I have been a Christian since 1996, and in ALL the chruches I have attended and visited (regardless of denomination, all were OSAS though) none, not one preached or ever taught that you "can sin all you want". Our church (major denomination that holds OSAS) preaches and teaches that if you continually sin and are not convicted and/or are no different than you were before you got saved, it's time to check if you really are saved (which I believe is a Biblical attitude).

 

[AVBunyan]

Only those who conform to First John can "know" that they are saved.

I think I'd rather be conformed to the truths found in Ephesians 1-3. I think I would start with Paul (II Tim. 2:7)

 

[Curt]

That sounds good but it does support the big flaw in the OSAS doctrine. Because the total of Biblical Doctrine on salvation will not support that doctrine, they are forced to claim that those who wind up in hell were never saved, and that is anti Bible Doctrine. There are outright statements in The Scriptures of not only individuals, but the nation of Israel having been saved many times, and turning away from God until He tells them I will deliver you no more. OSAS has no argument for these Scriptures and can only fall back on using their own understanding to handle those Scriptures. So it is not always the sin all you want that gets them criticised. And all who disagree with them do not believe that about them, it's the way they try to twist Scriptures to fit the doctrine. I don't believe that all OSAS churches teach that it's okay to sin, but I do know that their doctrine is not Biblical and will lead people into a false sense of security, which is a total disservice to them.

 

[jbarker28]

Hello all, this is my first post...

I think that when people say that Salvation is a gift from God, or being saved is by grace, that what this is refering to is Christ's sacrifice on the cross... In the OT, when people sacrificed animals for the remission of sins, they had to pay for these animals, either by buying them from someone else, or taking from their own herd and swallowing the loss... But Christ's sacrifice is freely given.. we don't pay for it and we can't earn it...

However, I do not believe that this initial 'freebie offering' of salvation somehow transfers to the following relationship with God. To use an analogy, the cover-price has been paid to get you in the door, and while there, there is a certain latitude in behavior that will be tolerated or forgiven if repented of, but if you do something severe enough, you will get 'thrown-out' of the party so-to-speak, and you will not be able to get back in.

That's why it say's "faith without works is dead." That's also why it says "No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

I would like to finish by clarifying that I think God uses a sliding scale to base his judgements on individual people, so he does not expect the same level of work from some people as from others (because he has given more gifts to some people than others). So, concurrently, I think it is easier to 'lose' your salvation the more you 'know-better'.

In faith and peace,

Joshua Barker

 

[The Midge]

Welcome to the boards jbarker28! i hope you have fun here and grow into a faith full of life!

The problem in this debate is down to interpretation of certain Bible verses. Let us take the verse you quote from James for example.

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
Jas 2:15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. Jas 2:16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? Jas 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
Jas 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. Jas 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ? Jas 2:21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? Jas 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God’s friend.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. Jas 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? Jas 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

I think we can all agree that James is saying that faith is not real unless it is lived out. Living it out includes caring for orphans and widows and following the teaching of the word. How many have you fed and clothed today? Undoubtedly there are blessings for following this teaching. All believers should do it, it is only natural.

But does he actualy say that salvation will be lost from not living out this faith? In this passage the deeds of faith are linked inextricably with meeting physical needs of those who are wanting. Therefore if you have done nothing to feed the starving or cloth the naked you faith is dead according to James. It is the positive action that is the faith affirmed not just the negative of not commiting sin. Is James saying that the one who does feed and clothe the needy prove his faith just by doing that or is it only sin

There is a theme running through the book of James. He is dealing with a problem of a Church which is not following the teaching of the Word. There actions are not matching up with what they preach or what they have been taught. Much of Jesus teaching focuses on doing good to the poor etc. Perhaps it is addressed to the entire fellowship rather than individuals."If you belive that teaching why don't you follow it?" says James. In saying this he is trying to galvanise the church into action and he orders the church to stop sinning. This fellowship could die; before you know it you will be boarded up while it is converted into a warehouse or disco.

Note what James considers to be sin:

Jas 2:3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here’s a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," Jas 2:4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

Jas 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. Jas 2:9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers

Jas 4:16 As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. Jas 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.

Note also this:

Jas 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. Jas 2:11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

This would seem to say that every sin is bad as another. There is no latitude in behaviour as Christ's church is not a night club! That is a big problem if it any sin loses your salvation.

Is James saying that the one who does feed and clothe the needy prove his faith just by doing that or is it only sin that loses salvation? If I'm helping the needy yet sinning in any of the ways that James out lines are the two acts neutralising each other?

James is definitely about leaving the kind of live that brings you closer to God

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Jas 4:8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Let us consider who this book was written and why.
James is considered to be one of the least theological books in the new Testament. The most probable author is James the Brother of Jesus.

His main concerns seems to be ethics and morality. It was probably written in about AD 45-50. It was probably addressed to Jewish believers possibly before the Gospel spread to the gentiles. It could be a round robin letter to believers dispersed amoungst dipsersed Jewish communities. Thus it is likely addressed to people who James considered to be saved but were living the life as God intended because the initial enthusiastic and lively faith was falling into a kind of legalistic formalism. Perhaps the Church was becoming deadly boring!

This pithy short letter has the style of a practical manual rather than a theological manual. That is it a guide of how to live rather than discussing abstract concepts such as the nature of God and salvation.

To conclude: I interpret the verse as an exhortation for believers to get a life, to put the teaching of Christ into practice. It is the out working of a salvation that has already happened. It is a much about corporate and Church community as it is about individual. There are two levels to this book.
In context James is not concerned about what salvation but rather how we should live it out. It questions if those who do not live the word are saved in the first place. We are also warned that saved believers can have a dead, legalstic spirituality because it is not expressed through how we live and our response to those around us.

Finally the concept that once we lose our faith we can not return to it is clearly debunked by this epistle:

Jas 5:19 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, Jas 5:20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

No-one is beyond saving, if they return to a lively spiritual life much i good is done and the live again. Don't give anyone up for lost. This is a real encouragement when things happen like high profile Mods turning out for the atheist side in General Applogetics for example.

Sources:
Quotes NIV
Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary. (backround)

 

[Curt]

Once again the fallacy of taking one Scripture out of context of the whole biblical doctrine of salvation being a process which requires a completion to get in the gate of heaven. Man says do you realy believe that one little sin can keep you out God says I AM COMING FOR A BRIDE WITHOUT SPOT OR WRINKLE so you need to exercise your freewill to choose, and decide what you are going to believe. Jesus Christ said "YOU CAN DO ALL THINGS I DID AND EVEN GREATER THINGS WILL YE DO. That means just exactly what it says, we can live without even one of those little sins even as He did. Man will tell you a whole lot about why The Scripture writers wrote what they did by calling upon their worldly knowledge, understanding, and wisdom which don't you know is superior to God's who said not to do this but trust me in what I wrote, and The Holy Spirit will interpret it for you according to what you need at this time. The Bible is full of examples, and words that tell us we can be saved and sell out to satan, and go to hell with him, and there is never a Scripture that says once you are saved, that of your own freewill you can't give up that salvation process.

 

[Believes Gods Sovereignity]

Once again the fallacy of taking one Scripture out of context of the whole biblical doctrine of salvation being a process which requires a completion to get in the gate of heaven.

Its not that i am saying that once saved always saved pertains to those who "accept Christ" and then walk away. Once one is saved, god will see him through (in disciplines (( quiet times prayer and fellowship)) and will discipline him to keep him doing these things) i am not claiming one can "recieve christ" and thats it hes eternally secure. But those that earnstly seek him will never again be lost. It is impossible. Christ said it is done for a reason.

 

[Curt]

Its not that i am saying that once saved always saved pertains to those who "accept Christ" and then walk away. Once one is saved, god will see him through (in disciplines (( quiet times prayer and fellowship)) and will discipline him to keep him doing these things) i am not claiming one can "recieve christ" and thats it hes eternally secure. But those that earnstly seek him will never again be lost. It is impossible. Christ said it is done for a reason.

If they continue to earnestly seek Him till they have finished the race as Paul puts it. Salvation is conditional on our choices.

 

[oakraven65]

Whan you mean "Salvation can be Lost" it relates to the Salvation Doctrine..

But nevertheless.. Our Protestant doctrine is built on the Bible and the Bible quotes..
"Saved by Grace only thru the means of faith"
Grace is not related to personal merits else it is no more grace..

So Grace is not sufficient ? Is it ?

So what more to be saved - Faith Plus (Plus ???)

- Good Works ?
- Doctrine of Obi Wan Kenobi ?
- Good Teachings ?

If someone asserts (I can understand he asserts) "Grace is not enough" he has to say what things are necessary to do "inherit eternal life"..

 

[speakingthetruth777]

Whan you mean "Salvation can be Lost" it relates to the Salvation Doctrine..

But nevertheless.. Our Protestant doctrine is built on the Bible and the Bible quotes..
"Saved by Grace only thru the means of faith"
Grace is not related to personal merits else it is no more grace..

So Grace is not sufficient ? Is it ?

So what more to be saved - Faith Plus (Plus ???)

- Good Works ?
- Doctrine of Obi Wan Kenobi ?
- Good Teachings ?

If someone asserts (I can understand he asserts) "Grace is not enough" he has to say what things are necessary to do "inherit eternal life"..

It is truly amazing how yall OSAS folks think one can say a prayer, continue living like hell(nightclubs, strip clubs, homosexuality, rape people, kill people, abort babies, incest, witchcraft, devil worship, hatred, lust, racism, an unforgiving heart, etc etc etc) but yet still be saved and on the way to God's Heaven.
What a shame.
God Bless,
Crystal

P.S. Can anyone find me a verse that says Grace covers our future sins? In my 15 years of bible studies and seminary i have failed to find it yet.
But yet, i remember Peter saying we are forgiven for our "PAST" sins. So, how does our past sins equal our future sins? It dont! Paul said to die daily to our flesh, and to repent daily!

 

[speakingthetruth777]

If they continue to earnestly seek Him till they have finished the race as Paul puts it. Salvation is conditional on our choices.

Amen Brother Curt! We are saved when we continually earnestly seek him til the day we breathe our last breath.
Amen

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