ArmyMatt

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All along I meant (and expressed badly) that I know it is permissible, but we are not called to what is permitted, and yes, people are now using that permission in light of the legalization of no-fault divorce in the 20th century to go far beyond what was permitted, and now the pastors are permitting such "no fault" (ie, no adultery, just "I feel unhappy with him/her") divorces on a large scale. That's what I'm kicking against, and I add for those that claim to be willing to really try to take up their crosses that for THEM, divorce should be impermissible to them not in the sense of being denied permission by others, but that they will not permit it to themselves, that they will cling to the insistence of self-sacrificial love without resentment or grudge.

Does that clarify my meaning a little?

of course, like I said earlier, I absolutely agree that far too many take advantage of what the Church allows for our brokenness.
 
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LizaMarie

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I'm really torn on this issue. I live in a small town in a rural area and there is far too much of divorce/remarriage in the under 50 set. At least the Catholic Church puts up a barrier to being a blessing machine for this with the annulment system even if there are abuses with that, too.
I'm saying this because I just talked to someone who left her last husband and is now married to a new guy in the Evangelical church. I think Rusmeister's concerns are valid although I feel like a hypocrite in a way pointing it out. ( I am married to a divorced man.)
There seems to be no good answer for this.
The Reformers did not consider marriage to be a sacrament, a mistake I believe, but there are still a very few Fundamentalist churches who will not marry anyone as long as either party's former spouse is still living.
If you are going to be Sola Scriptura, this is what Jesus says in the gospels.
The Jewish people under Moses allowed for divorce/remarriage for hardness of hearts, but Christ re-instituted marriage as one man/one woman for life.
It's a tough one because in a way, we are back to being in a pagan/non Christian society here in the West, at least.
ETA: So churches have a tightrope walk between mercy and repentance and being too lenient.
I still wonder what the first century church would do?
 
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rusmeister

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I'm really torn on this issue. I live in a small town in a rural area and there is far too much of divorce/remarriage in the under 50 set. At least the Catholic Church puts up a barrier to being a blessing machine for this with the annulment system even if there are abuses with that, too.
I'm saying this because I just talked to someone who left her last husband and is now married to a new guy in the Evangelical church. I think Rusmeister's concerns are valid although I feel like a hypocrite in a way pointing it out. ( I am married to a divorced man.)
There seems to be no good answer for this.
The Reformers did not consider marriage to be a sacrament, a mistake I believe, but there are still a very few Fundamentalist churches who will not marry anyone as long as either party's former spouse is still living.
If you are going to be Sola Scriptura, this is what Jesus says in the gospels.
The Jewish people under Moses allowed for divorce/remarriage for hardness of hearts, but Christ re-instituted marriage as one man/one woman for life.
It's a tough one because in a way, we are back to being in a pagan/non Christian society here in the West, at least.
ETA: So churches have a tightrope walk between mercy and repentance and being too lenient.
I still wonder what the first century church would do?

What I would urge Christians to do now is NOT to lambast ANYONE for what they did in the past, but to choose what Christ would have us choose: to be faithful NOW, to turn away from divorce forever as an option from this moment, and to urge and support other Christians to do the same. You might be in a tenth marriage. So stop. Stay in that tenth marriage, and do what you (any “you”) should have done the first time around. That’s the whole context. We say we want to take up our cross and follow Christ, and marriage is something we are called to do that in. Very few marriages do not have points where the couple is ready to throw pots and pans at each other, both figuratively and literally. We all reach points where we feel like we can’t take it any more. And THAT is where the command to love, even our enemies, comes in. Really loving, not grudging, not faking, but looking at what the Other needs, what distresses her/him, and doing what love demands. It might demand putting the Other in an institution and becoming a monk/nun (in response to the “my spouse is an axe-murderer” scenario). It might demand enduring a long and painful marriage. It might demand caring for a permanently disabled spouse. It might mean caring for four or eight kids through all the years they are growing up. But we need to stop lying to ourselves about what divorce is. Stop saying “it’s for the best for the kids”, when the kids KNOW that the best for them is their parents stopping quarreling and hurting each other, and learning to love each other even though it’s hard. We have to throw away the illusion of the “escape hatch” and the “Get out of jail free” card, and return to the Christian understanding, which always made it a permanent thing, something every single division and schism retained until the middle of the 20th century. It is we, now, who have fallen away from the Christian understanding, and we need to return to it.
 
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LizaMarie

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What I would urge Christians to do now is NOT to lambast ANYONE for what they did in the past, but to choose what Christ would have us choose: to be faithful NOW, to turn away from divorce forever as an option from this moment, and to urge and support other Christians to do the same. You might be in a tenth marriage. So stop. Stay in that tenth marriage, and do what you (any “you”) should have done the first time around. That’s the whole context. We say we want to take up our cross and follow Christ, and marriage is something we are called to do that in. Very few marriages do not have points where the couple is ready to throw pots and pans at each other, both figuratively and literally. We all reach points where we feel like we can’t take it any more. And THAT is where the command to love, even our enemies, comes in. Really loving, not grudging, not faking, but looking at what the Other needs, what distresses her/him, and doing what love demands. It might demand putting the Other in an institution and becoming a monk/nun (in response to the “my spouse is an axe-murderer” scenario). It might demand enduring a long and painful marriage. It might demand caring for a permanently disabled spouse. It might mean caring for four or eight kids through all the years they are growing up. But we need to stop lying to ourselves about what divorce is. Stop saying “it’s for the best for the kids”, when the kids KNOW that the best for them is their parents stopping quarreling and hurting each other, and learning to love each other even though it’s hard. We have to throw away the illusion of the “escape hatch” and the “Get out of jail free” card, and return to the Christian understanding, which always made it a permanent thing, something every single division and schism retained until the middle of the 20th century. It is we, now, who have fallen away from the Christian understanding, and we need to return to it.
Wow this is excellent thank you!! I agree.
26 years ago I married my husband and promised forever and I meant it. But we've wanted to throw "pots and pans" at each other lol. A few times. But I promised myself no divorce. I am a child of divorce. My parents divorced in the 60's before divorce was "cool." My sibling and I have suffered lifelong, in some ways. Thank God for Jesus, though. Actually I'm lucky my husband is a good man. We both have our idiosyncrasies, though. However we have grown together, and spiritually.
I think Orthodoxy wise to put a cap on marriages at three, I really do. I do believe marriage to be a sacrament as well.
 
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Lady Donna Marie

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The Orthodox view on divorce. Please keep in mind every marriage is view as unique so the decisions made about each marriage may be different then another couples marriage. I know of a couple where the husband's sins of sexual addiction was withheld from the wife until they got marriage. Their divorce ended and the wife was found without fault. I know another couple that the husband abandoned the family and the wife was found not at fault. Both of these situations the Bishop considered the wife to be someone that would be able to remarry if indeed they wanted too.

The marriage relationship between husband and wife is most sacred. However, human sin, affecting one or both spouses, can cause discord and conflict. The best time to seek help is at the first inkling of a problem before it degrades the relationship beyond repair. If however, the husband and wife cannot be reconciled, and a civil divorce is obtained, then the Orthodox Christian spouse can petition for an ecclesiastical (church) divorce. The entire process follows below:

  1. Meeting with priest to discuss what caused the marriage to fall apart.
  2. Priest contacts other spouse to discuss what caused the marriage to fall apart.
  3. If there is no possibility of reconciliation at this point, the priest will need a petition to proceed.
  4. Filing a Petition.
  5. Sacrament of Confession for petitioner(s).
  6. Spiritual Court Hearing (both spouses will be notified).
  7. Spiritual Court submits all documents with recommendation to local Hierarch for final decision.
  8. Ecclesiastical Divorce Decree (if issued) delivered to petitioner.
Sometimes a petitioner may feel quite justified in seeking an ecclesiastical divorce to the point where they do not see any fault of their own in the breakdown of the marriage. The process of a church divorce is meant to uncover, name and heal any brokenness, both small and great, within the heart, mind and soul of the petitioner(s). This will enable them to move forward with peace, grace and maturity to continue their life following Christ in His Holy Church and, God-willing, enter into a subsequent marriage.
 
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rusmeister

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The Orthodox view on divorce. Please keep in mind every marriage is view as unique so the decisions made about each marriage may be different then another couples marriage. I know of a couple where the husband's sins of sexual addiction was withheld from the wife until they got marriage. Their divorce ended and the wife was found without fault. I know another couple that the husband abandoned the family and the wife was found not at fault. Both of these situations the Bishop considered the wife to be someone that would be able to remarry if indeed they wanted too.

The marriage relationship between husband and wife is most sacred. However, human sin, affecting one or both spouses, can cause discord and conflict. The best time to seek help is at the first inkling of a problem before it degrades the relationship beyond repair. If however, the husband and wife cannot be reconciled, and a civil divorce is obtained, then the Orthodox Christian spouse can petition for an ecclesiastical (church) divorce. The entire process follows below:

  1. Meeting with priest to discuss what caused the marriage to fall apart.
  2. Priest contacts other spouse to discuss what caused the marriage to fall apart.
  3. If there is no possibility of reconciliation at this point, the priest will need a petition to proceed.
  4. Filing a Petition.
  5. Sacrament of Confession for petitioner(s).
  6. Spiritual Court Hearing (both spouses will be notified).
  7. Spiritual Court submits all documents with recommendation to local Hierarch for final decision.
  8. Ecclesiastical Divorce Decree (if issued) delivered to petitioner.
Sometimes a petitioner may feel quite justified in seeking an ecclesiastical divorce to the point where they do not see any fault of their own in the breakdown of the marriage. The process of a church divorce is meant to uncover, name and heal any brokenness, both small and great, within the heart, mind and soul of the petitioner(s). This will enable them to move forward with peace, grace and maturity to continue their life following Christ in His Holy Church and, God-willing, enter into a subsequent marriage.
This sounds so juridical it seems more like a Catholic position. And it is SO aimed at justifying divorce and disconnected from the fathers and saints.
The only relationship beyond repair between two Orthodox spouses who both declare a willingness to follow Christ and take up their cross is one in which at least one of the two doesn’t really mean it (that willingness and determination).
 
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Lady Donna Marie

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[QUOTE="rusmeister,
Yes, spiritual abandonment is a real issue especially when it destroys a marriage and one spouse won't accept the other spouse. That's scriptural.
The other person I mentioned that had to deal with the spouse having a sexual addiction us equivalent to adultery. It kills the spiritual union of a marriage.

It's not the same a the Catholic Church because even though both of these marriages were considered wronged by one spouse the Orthodox Church doesn't grant annulments only church divorces after a civil divorce has been done.
I don't necessarily agree with that idea, but because they only grant a divorce and if one spouse isn't the blame for the marriage not making it, then they allow for a remarriage if so desired and it's for the salvation of their souls. Not necessarily to have children although that can be their blessing.
 
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LizaMarie

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Maybe it's for self serving reasons, but I really much prefer the Orthodox way of handling divorce and remarriage versus the Catholic one of annulments, even though I essentially agree with the Catholic and a few Protestant Church teachings of no divorce at all. I come from a divorced family, and I've been married since 1993, and I made a promise before God and man, for forever. And I intend to keep it. My husband does, too.
That said, my husband was married before, and when we looked at the Catholic annulment system, we found it quite intimidating. If we were to decide that we would have to become Catholic, we would submit to it, but my husband is not on board with a lot of what they teach(Papacy is one)and I'm not sure I am either, although I do consider them to be a genuine Christian church. I still wonder how the very early Christians handled those types of issues. It's very hard to find anything on that.
I really agree with what Rusmeister posted in #83, and I wish all Christians would hold to it, but they don't. And it's a sad commentary of our times, which was predicted in the Bible. Maybe this is where the Orthodox cap on three marriages is a good thing.
I say this with the realization that sometimes one spouse has no choice but to remove themselves due to violence, abuse etc.
 
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Lady Donna Marie

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In my opinion what is really tragic is not divorce for that is the result of what could not be obtained (a holy union), but the lack of choosing to grow closer to Christ and therefore being able to let go of the things/passions that children do hold onto and instead become men and women of righteous that seek that which is virtuous so that when things become difficult then the two will be more likely to pursue that which is good and bare fruit. Keeping in mind that free will to love God and His ways in the major part of a relationship of any kind that will work better than if He is not there.

I think it is far more merciful to love people where they are at and not put them in a category that because a marriage did not work out, but to look more towards the log that is in our eyes and let God take care of what which went wrong in their union. Sometimes it seems as though we forget we live in a fallen world and all are fallen whether married or not.
 
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Lady Donna Marie

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[QUOTE="LizaMarie,

Hello LizaMarie,

If you would like to know more about the Orthodox Christian Church I can provide you with more information.

I pray your marriage union will have the strength to be joined in like-mindedness.
 
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LizaMarie

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[QUOTE="LizaMarie,

Hello LizaMarie,

If you would like to know more about the Orthodox Christian Church I can provide you with more information.

I pray your marriage union will have the strength to be joined in like-mindedness.
Thank you! I've been here for a couple of years learning a lot! Plus Ancient Faith ministeries as well. There are two churches in a city about 80 miles from me I hope to get to a Divine Liturgy soon.
I live in an area that has harsh winter conditions with tough travel for a part of the year and the church(es) are in a city with a lot of traffic after driving county roads with blowing snow and ice in the winter months. My husband isn't thrilled about a church that far away, and neither am I. The distance is a lot of the problem but this spring God willing I hope to at least be able to go to a Divine liturgy. My husband is happy with our confessional Lutheran church. He actually converted from being a Baptist to my Lutheran faith. Our church taught him far more historic ,liturgical Christianity than what he was used to, plus the real presence in the Eucharist, so perhaps that was a preparation for the Orthodox church.
We have looked at both The RCC and Orthodoxy and frankly Orthodoxy checks more boxes for both of us.
 
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rusmeister

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I myself said above that a spouse might have to remove him or herself from the other (insanely violent and dangerous, for example), but that that does not necessitate or justify divorce in what I understand the Orthodox conception of marriage to be.

That conception is of marriage as a mirror of Christ’s relationship to us and the Church. In that understanding, I cannot conceive of any situation where two spouses who both declare intent to repent and follow Christ should be divorced. They might be forced to live apart, though that would be bad. I don’t believe that pastors who say that “the marriage has ceased to exist” where unrepented adultery is not involved express the mind of the Church on marriage, but rather bad modern psychology meant for people of the world who have no intention of taking up crosses. If the two both declare intent to try to live the Orthodox life, divorce is just not an option.

To say that a divorce should be granted because a “a holy union could not be obtained” makes no sense in the Orthodox context. A holy union was obtained at marriage. That the spouses subsequently live less than holy lives does not negate that (except unrepented adultery, which is something Christ affirmed). If one of the spouses says “The heck with the Church”, then again, what I’m saying doesn’t apply to that. But if both affirm a determination to strive to repent, where then is the excuse for divorce? Absolutely everything in Tradition affirms that we ought to love our neighbor, love our enemy, and love our wives as Christ loves the Church.

The thing I find both shocking and intolerable is Christians within the Church teaching that divorce between practicing Christians is fully acceptable and excusable on the modern grounds of “irreconcilable differences”. It is wholly inconsistent with the entire history of Christianity before the twentieth century, to say nothing of the Orthodox Church.
 
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LizaMarie

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I myself said above that a spouse might have to remove him or herself from the other (insanely violent and dangerous, for example), but that that does not necessitate or justify divorce in what I understand the Orthodox conception of marriage to be.

That conception is of marriage as a mirror of Christ’s relationship to us and the Church. In that understanding, I cannot conceive of any situation where two spouses who both declare intent to repent and follow Christ should be divorced. They might be forced to live apart, though that would be bad. I don’t believe that pastors who say that “the marriage has ceased to exist” where unrepented adultery is not involved express the mind of the Church on marriage, but rather bad modern psychology meant for people of the world who have no intention of taking up crosses. If the two both declare intent to try to live the Orthodox life, divorce is just not an option.

To say that a divorce should be granted because a “a holy union could not be obtained” makes no sense in the Orthodox context. A holy union was obtained at marriage. That the spouses subsequently live less than holy lives does not negate that (except unrepented adultery, which is something Christ affirmed). If one of the spouses says “The heck with the Church”, then again, what I’m saying doesn’t apply to that. But if both affirm a determination to strive to repent, where then is the excuse for divorce? Absolutely everything in Tradition affirms that we ought to love our neighbor, love our enemy, and love our wives as Christ loves the Church.

The thing I find both shocking and intolerable is Christians within the Church teaching that divorce between practicing Christians is fully acceptable and excusable on the modern grounds of “irreconcilable differences”. It is wholly inconsistent with the entire history of Christianity before the twentieth century, to say nothing of the Orthodox Church.
I essentially agree with what you said, especially the last paragraph. Unfortunately the Church has followed secular society. A century ago, Christian nations more or less mirrored what the Church taught.
Societal taboos probably prevented a lot of divorces. (Though surprisingly doing some genealogy I found some divorce and remarriage among some of my ancestors pre-1960's!)
 
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“Paisios”

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I myself said above that a spouse might have to remove him or herself from the other (insanely violent and dangerous, for example), but that that does not necessitate or justify divorce in what I understand the Orthodox conception of marriage to be.

That conception is of marriage as a mirror of Christ’s relationship to us and the Church. In that understanding, I cannot conceive of any situation where two spouses who both declare intent to repent and follow Christ should be divorced. They might be forced to live apart, though that would be bad. I don’t believe that pastors who say that “the marriage has ceased to exist” where unrepented adultery is not involved express the mind of the Church on marriage, but rather bad modern psychology meant for people of the world who have no intention of taking up crosses. If the two both declare intent to try to live the Orthodox life, divorce is just not an option.

To say that a divorce should be granted because a “a holy union could not be obtained” makes no sense in the Orthodox context. A holy union was obtained at marriage. That the spouses subsequently live less than holy lives does not negate that (except unrepented adultery, which is something Christ affirmed). If one of the spouses says “The heck with the Church”, then again, what I’m saying doesn’t apply to that. But if both affirm a determination to strive to repent, where then is the excuse for divorce? Absolutely everything in Tradition affirms that we ought to love our neighbor, love our enemy, and love our wives as Christ loves the Church.

The thing I find both shocking and intolerable is Christians within the Church teaching that divorce between practicing Christians is fully acceptable and excusable on the modern grounds of “irreconcilable differences”. It is wholly inconsistent with the entire history of Christianity before the twentieth century, to say nothing of the Orthodox Church.
I agree with all of this as it applies to my own marriage. Divorce is inconceivable. I am glad that I am neither priest nor bishop and that I don’t have to make judgments concerning anyone else’s. What a fallen world in which we live!
 
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rusmeister

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I agree with all of this as it applies to my own marriage. Divorce is inconceivable. I am glad that I am neither priest nor bishop and that I don’t have to make judgments concerning anyone else’s. What a fallen world in which we live!
The danger in speaking of “judgement”, as I see it, is that we constantly confuse judging others’ spiritual state before God, something forbidden to us, with the necessity of saying what we as Christians ought to do, and admitting it when we fail to do it, and refusing to justify our failure - something we MUST do - first for ourselves, and then to exhort our brothers and sisters in Christ to likewise strive to do. The impression I get from many today is that we are NOT supposed to exhort them, that that is the “judgement” that we are forbidden to do.
 
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Lady Donna Marie

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Something I haven't noticed in these responses is the fact that if a man and woman are still married in the eyes of the court, then they still have a financial responsibility to one another and if a spouse that isn't careful with their funds then the other spouse can suffer because of that and be held accountable for the poor spending habits of the other spouse.

One of the benefits of getting a divorced and not getting remarried would help when a marriage is suffering from poor financial decisions. As long as they are married they both are held accountable for each other financially. A civil divorce would stop the financial responsibility and allow the spouse that is responsible to regain stability on their own. I don't find it justified for a spouse to be a financial burden and take down the other spouse especially if that other spouse is caring for their children and therefore makes the children suffer because of it.

Divorce seems to forget what God called us to do. To love one another. Marriage was for loving one another and if a married couple or one of them is not loving the other, then it defeats the main purpose of the marriage. To love another so that they can grow as one in God and become more like Christ. It's supposed to be a blessed state, baring fruit instead of cutting/ chocking the roots of their connection. When love is not found in a marriage it technically is already divorced in the heart even though it is not written on a legal document. Yes, there's the spats that married couples get into and then there's and over-the-top stuff that breaks a marriage down. Chips away at the foundation.

When I hear statements that no matter what a divorce is a no no I am reminded that God is a gracious and merciful God and the mercy we give to others is the mercy we will receive in return. When I come across an issue in life and want to state my opinion I hope I give the same mercy that God gives instead of my human understanding that falls short of His understanding.

Luke 6:36
Be merciful, just as the Father is merciful.

Matthew 5:7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

James 2:13 There will be no mercy for those who have not shown mercy to others. But if you have been merciful, God will be merciful when he judges you.

I don't know about you, but I hope I receive mercy and in order to get it I have to give.
 
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LizaMarie

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Something I haven't noticed in these responses is the fact that if a man and woman are still married in the eyes of the court, then they still have a financial responsibility to one another and if a spouse that isn't careful with their funds then the other spouse can suffer because of that and be held accountable for the poor spending habits of the other spouse.

One of the benefits of getting a divorced and not getting remarried would help when a marriage is suffering from poor financial decisions. As long as they are married they both are held accountable for each other financially. A civil divorce would stop the financial responsibility and allow the spouse that is responsible to regain stability on their own. I don't find it justified for a spouse to be a financial burden and take down the other spouse especially if that other spouse is caring for their children and therefore makes the children suffer because of it.

Divorce seems to forget what God called us to do. To love one another. Marriage was for loving one another and if a married couple or one of them is not loving the other, then it defeats the main purpose of the marriage. To love another so that they can grow as one in God and become more like Christ. It's supposed to be a blessed state, baring fruit instead of cutting/ chocking the roots of their connection. When love is not found in a marriage it technically is already divorced in the heart even though it is not written on a legal document. Yes, there's the spats that married couples get into and then there's and over-the-top stuff that breaks a marriage down. Chips away at the foundation.

When I hear statements that no matter what a divorce is a no no I am reminded that God is a gracious and merciful God and the mercy we give to others is the mercy we will receive in return. When I come across an issue in life and want to state my opinion I hope I give the same mercy that God gives instead of my human understanding that falls short of His understanding.

Luke 6:36
Be merciful, just as the Father is merciful.

Matthew 5:7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

James 2:13 There will be no mercy for those who have not shown mercy to others. But if you have been merciful, God will be merciful when he judges you.

I don't know about you, but I hope I receive mercy and in order to get it I have to give.
Yes your first two paragraphs are correct. Sometimes a legal separation or maybe divorce are necessary to protect the innocent spouse. I have no legal background but hopefully the first would apply first and the last would be an option of last resort. We live in a fallen world and unfortunately marriage seems to be suffering as our society decays.
 
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Euodius

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REC anulments get very weird with converts as all previous marriages (outside the church, before individual was even Christian) must be annulled prior to receiving the Eucharist (commonly not enforced.) The current marriage is not considered to be a marriage, but merely adulterous relationship - thus the convert must become celibate to receive the Eucharist and even living together becomes a technical bar to communion. Each annulment may take 6 - 12 months, placing considerable spiritual and relationship strain on the newly converted.

It is made worse by the fact that that the RCC will not have records and will require them. This may include all psychological records from doctors or therapists from the time of the previous marriage, as well as written testimonies from witnesses, who may no longer be around, (including the ex-spouse, who may not cooperate...) A lack of records (Or a refusal of ex to cooperate) can prevent the annulment... meaning the family may be required to be broken or be forever technically denied communion. A dear friend of mine suffered through this.

The tribunal process is impersonal, in the realm of professional canon lawyers, and without spiritual direction or consideration. It is a game of paperwork and there is no interaction or relationship with the tribunal - nothing pastoral about it. The tribunal may be filled with people who aren`t even Catholic.

On the flipside, you can hire a canon lawyer to sort this out for you - it's an industry of it's own.
 
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LizaMarie

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REC anulments get very weird with converts as all previous marriages (outside the church, before individual was even Christian) must be annulled prior to receiving the Eucharist (commonly not enforced.) The current marriage is not considered to be a marriage, but merely adulterous relationship - thus the convert must become celibate to receive the Eucharist and even living together becomes a technical bar to communion. Each annulment may take 6 - 12 months, placing considerable spiritual and relationship strain on the newly converted.

It is made worse by the fact that that the RCC will not have records and will require them. This may include all psychological records from doctors or therapists from the time of the previous marriage, as well as written testimonies from witnesses, who may no longer be around, (including the ex-spouse, who may not cooperate...) A lack of records (Or a refusal of ex to cooperate) can prevent the annulment... meaning the family may be required to be broken or be forever technically denied communion. A dear friend of mine suffered through this.

The tribunal process is impersonal, in the realm of professional canon lawyers, and without spiritual direction or consideration. It is a game of paperwork and there is no interaction or relationship with the tribunal - nothing pastoral about it. The tribunal may be filled with people who aren`t even Catholic.

On the flipside, you can hire a canon lawyer to sort this out for you - it's an industry of it's own.
While I respect the Catholic teaching on divorce and the annulment process, it is quite intimidating for those converts who were never Catholic and didn't know they would ever need a Catholic annulment.
It almost reminds me of one of the Calvinist points (if a person falls away perhaps they were never saved to begin with.)
Anyway, I'm not so sure I see a real difference between A Catholic tribunal allowing another marriage, and an Orthodox Bishop allowing another marriage in the end, even though arriving at that point was different. But I'm still learning.
 
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