buzuxi02

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Am I correct the Orthodox teach a marriage gets automatically (or at all) dissolved by adultery etc? That is what I read from an Orthodox source
I have never heard of this before. There are prayers in the marriage service to safeguard the marriage bed undefiled. The Shepherd of Hermas says a husband should take back a cheating spouse if she repents, but not always as there is only one repentance for the servants of God. It makes clear that's why a seperated spouse should not remarry because it would put an end for the sinning spouse to come to repentance.
 
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Theoretically the Church doesnt give out divorces. It recognizes that an already broken marriage has no hope of reconcilliation (civil divorce already have taken place) and will grant permission for a second marriage (they can deny it as well).

as well as a third (which they can deny also). but the Church will not grant any more than three. and the service for the third is very repentant.
 
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LizaMarie

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I am interested in the difference between the RC view that the couple are ministers of the Sacrament vs the Orthodox one. I figure this is the reason they need to investigate the original ceremony(In Roman Catholism) in order to grant an anullment?This is true even if neither party was ever Catholic I have found out, as in our case. Also in our case a couple of witnesses we would have called are deceased. In Orthodoxy the priest or Bishop administers the sacrament? I should get Fr. Meyendorff's book.

The Orthodox way seems more in concert with our current church, but of course in the WELS there are no bishops, and marriage is not considered a sacrament.
 
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the grace to administer the sacraments is given to the bishops, and then by extension, the priests. not to the laity. however, the laity need to actualize it in their lives. both parts are required.
 
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I have a couple of other questions that pertain to this topic- the eternity of the marriage sacrament.
So-If I were to join the RCC, and my husband got his former marriage annulled, (which would have to be done before we could join and become communicant members)then Rome would basically be saying that his first marriage was not a sacramental marriage and we would have our marriage convalidated in the RCC, and this would essentially be his first sacramental marriage.
Would the EO(were we to convert) consider his first marriage to be a sacrament and our current marriage to be a concession to weakness on his part, or would they consider our marriage to be a true sacrament since neither of us were in the Orthodox church prior to this? (this is my only marriage.)And his former marriage not?
And if the first marriage (of anyone) in the EO, ends due to death of one of the partners, is that sacrament still considered eternal and any subsequent marriage only granted due to human weakness?
I'm just curious, I doubt I would ever re-marry should something happen to my husband but just want to know about the eternity of the sacraments. I'm not trying to be argumentative just wondering since marriage is not considered a sacrament in my church only a covenant (between a man and a woman) that should not be broken.
 
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the EO would recognize whatever marriage you came into the Church with. there are services to bless those who were married prior to becoming Orthodox. as far as the eternality is concerned, it's the relationship and the love continues. in heaven, we all will be the bride married to our Bridegroom, and the marriage we have now is to prepare us for that relationship.
 
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In my experience, an annulment is fairly difficult to achieve. I can see your point about it being a loophole. With the amount of divorce and annulment there probably is in terms of numbers, it seems kinda off that that many marriages would have some inherent problem to have not made them valid from the beginning.

My wife converted to RC in order to marry her first husband. There marriage only lasted a few years (a sad story) Her ex husband started the annulment process after the civil divorce was final. She was responsible enough, and kind enough to do her part. It took several months, but in the end the marriage was annulled.

Looking back on it 33 years later at 56 vis 23, I have come to realize the tragedy of a marriage that fails.

In many Protestant circles, marriage is entered into with a lot of laxity, and divorce is seen as little more than a probability.

My denomination is quite conservative (LCMS) and this issue is taken seriously by most members, but there is room for improvement.

As I got older, and more versed in scripture, I began to realize my own sin, and it took a lot of repentence, and a good talk with my Pastor before I felt betterbetter, and was able to move forward.

I never asked my wife to many questions about her relationship with her EX, but I know she was unhappy, almost to the point of suicide, and she did not love him. I try not to judge there situation, and thank God I have never had to live through it.
 
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it's not legal. it is permissible under certain circumstances depending on the salvation of those involved. but always with prayer, penance, and discernment. divorce is a no-no for us, we just apply that pastorally.

What would the Orthodox say to a woman who's husband comes home every Friday night, and gives her a black eye, or, demands depraved sexual practices, or, she is unhappy to the point of suicide, or, she just fell out of love?

Is she trapped in the marriage until she jumps from a bridge and kills herself, or, her husband murders her?

What is she to do?
 
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What would the Orthodox say to a woman who's husband comes home every Friday night, and gives her a black eye, or, demands depraved sexual practices, or, she is unhappy to the point of suicide, or, she just fell out of love?

Is she trapped in the marriage until she jumps from a bridge and kills herself, or, her husband murders her?

What is she to do?

reread the second sentence of what you quoted from me.

the only one that doesn't apply is to fall out of love. love is a choice and an action, not an emotion.
 
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reread the second sentence of what you quoted from me.

the only one that doesn't apply is to fall out of love. love is a choice and an action, not an emotion.

So, with the exception of falling out of love, the other reasons would/could be permissible grounds for divorce.

I would assume, that counseling, separation, and a reasonable effort at reconciliation would be required first?
 
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So, with the exception of falling out of love, the other reasons would/could be permissible grounds for divorce.

I would assume, that counseling, separation, and a reasonable effort at reconciliation would be required first?

yes, plus repentance, prayer, forgiveness, etc. it's very grave, and must be taken extremely seriously.
 
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I am interested in the difference between the RC view that the couple are ministers of the Sacrament vs the Orthodox one. I figure this is the reason they need to investigate the original ceremony(In Roman Catholism) in order to grant an anullment?This is true even if neither party was ever Catholic I have found out, as in our case. Also in our case a couple of witnesses we would have called are deceased. In Orthodoxy the priest or Bishop administers the sacrament? I should get Fr. Meyendorff's book.

The Orthodox way seems more in concert with our current church, but of course in the WELS there are no bishops, and marriage is not considered a sacrament.
Well, since I've been embroiled in discussion about the nature of the Sacrament of marriage and the stance on re-married divorcees being either granted or denied participation in the Church or Sacramental Life in the Church - Roman Catholicism and Protestantism vs Orthodox Christianity, and since no other Orthodox Christians have contributed anything thus far to the conversation, so that I'm struggling greatly to locate many strong historical records which clearly show that the Orthodox Christian perspective is the good and correct perspective. I'm going to work to resurrect this thread.

I'll begin by first stating my current thoughts on "annulment" of marriages as defined in Roman Catholicism. The Orthodox notion of the Sacrament of Marriage is that it is neither the clergy of the Church, nor the man and woman joined together in marriage who are doing the joining. Rather, it is God alone Who joins them into His sacred one-flesh bond of union, (with the willing cooperation of the man and woman, of course, and in the witness of the Church) so that, as Christ teaches, "... they are no longer two, but one flesh" (Matthew 19:6). Christ immediately follows this saying with the decree of "Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” (Matthew 19:6)

Now, I recall in the divine word that Jesus bestowed upon His Apostles, and by way of succession, His bishops in His Church the authority to "bind and to loose", which is the authority to forgive sins or to retain sins. I do not, however, know of anything in the divine word that states that they have the authority to determine whether married people were joined together to become one flesh by God, or not. Rather, Christ says "What God has joined together, let man not separate". Are the Apostles more than men? Well, not according the leader of the Apostles himself - Peter, because the divine word testifies that he says of himself, "I am only a man myself" (Acts 10:26).

In my reasoning, annulment cannot work in the Church, or be allowed, because it teaches that the validity of the marriage is determined not by the will of God, but by the nature of the man's or the woman's intentions, or their ability to fairly understand the Sacred Mystery (Sacrament) of Holy Matrimony at the time when the marriage vows were taken in the Church service. I didn't understand the Holy Mystery very well when I was married in the Church. Does this mean that I can now get an annulment after over 30 long, oftentimes difficult or tumultuous years of married life? The oft repeated cliche by Athanasius the Great has just come into my head: "Perish the thought!!!" (on account of the absurdity of the whole idea).
 
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Another thing I am struggling with in the discussion is the concept of Holy Marriage by Roman Catholicism and Protestantism vs Holy Orthodoxy in regards to both its purpose and its nature (i.e. whether it is eternal or dissolved upon the death of one or both of those who are joined as one flesh in marriage.) I plan to post more on these ideas later. Thanks.
 
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LizaMarie

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Well, since I've been embroiled in discussion about the nature of the Sacrament of marriage and the stance on re-married divorcees being either granted or denied participation in the Church or Sacramental Life in the Church - Roman Catholicism and Protestantism vs Orthodox Christianity, and since no other Orthodox Christians have contributed anything thus far to the conversation, so that I'm struggling greatly to locate many strong historical records which clearly show that the Orthodox Christian perspective is the good and correct perspective. I'm going to work to resurrect this thread.

I'll begin by first stating my current thoughts on "annulment" of marriages as defined in Roman Catholicism. The Orthodox notion of the Sacrament of Marriage is that it is neither the clergy of the Church, nor the man and woman joined together in marriage who are doing the joining. Rather, it is God alone Who joins them into His sacred one-flesh bond of union, (with the willing cooperation of the man and woman, of course, and in the witness of the Church) so that, as Christ teaches, "... they are no longer two, but one flesh" (Matthew 19:6). Christ immediately follows this saying with the decree of "Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” (Matthew 19:6)

Now, I recall in the divine word that Jesus bestowed upon His Apostles, and by way of succession, His bishops in His Church the authority to "bind and to loose", which is the authority to forgive sins or to retain sins. I do not, however, know of anything in the divine word that states that they have the authority to determine whether married people were joined together to become one flesh by God, or not. Rather, Christ says "What God has joined together, let man not separate". Are the Apostles more than men? Well, not according the leader of the Apostles himself - Peter, because the divine word testifies that he says of himself, "I am only a man myself" (Acts 10:26).

In my reasoning, annulment cannot work in the Church, or be allowed, because it teaches that the validity of the marriage is determined not by the will of God, but by the nature of the man's or the woman's intentions, or their ability to fairly understand the Sacred Mystery (Sacrament) of Holy Matrimony at the time when the marriage vows were taken in the Church service. I didn't understand the Holy Mystery very well when I was married in the Church. Does this mean that I can now get an annulment after over 30 long, oftentimes difficult or tumultuous years of married life? The oft repeated cliche by Athanasius the Great has just come into my head: "Perish the thought!!!" (on account of the absurdity of the whole idea).
Thank you for this. This is a great post.
 
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LizaMarie

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Another thing I am struggling with in the discussion is the concept of Holy Marriage by Roman Catholicism and Protestantism vs Holy Orthodoxy in regards to both its purpose and its nature (i.e. whether it is eternal or dissolved upon the death of one or both of those who are joined as one flesh in marriage.) I plan to post more on these ideas later. Thanks.
Yes please do!
 
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I have a couple of other questions that pertain to this topic- the eternity of the marriage sacrament.
So-If I were to join the RCC, and my husband got his former marriage annulled, (which would have to be done before we could join and become communicant members)then Rome would basically be saying that his first marriage was not a sacramental marriage and we would have our marriage convalidated in the RCC, and this would essentially be his first sacramental marriage.
Would the EO(were we to convert) consider his first marriage to be a sacrament and our current marriage to be a concession to weakness on his part, or would they consider our marriage to be a true sacrament since neither of us were in the Orthodox church prior to this? (this is my only marriage.)And his former marriage not?
And if the first marriage (of anyone) in the EO, ends due to death of one of the partners, is that sacrament still considered eternal and any subsequent marriage only granted due to human weakness?
I'm just curious, I doubt I would ever re-marry should something happen to my husband but just want to know about the eternity of the sacraments. I'm not trying to be argumentative just wondering since marriage is not considered a sacrament in my church only a covenant (between a man and a woman) that should not be broken.
Here is a copied and pasted post that I used to reply to a Roman Catholic person who has engaged me in an in depth discussion of the differences in how His Church views marriage, divorce, and annulment vs the Church I'm a member of: I don't know how many, if any of my arguments are completely accurate in the way that our Church sees these things, as I'm not thoroughly schooled in the Church fathers on these matters. But I offer my thoughts here in hopes of fueling further input from other Orthodox Christians who may be more knowledgeable than me in these things. Thanks.

"Well, as already stated, St. Epiphanius, Bishop of Cyprus (died 403AD) provided written testimony that if a man becomes separated from his first wife for a valid reason, that "if he take another wife" he is not excluded from the Church or the life. The synod of Orthodox Bishops state that this is the Orthodox way.

As far as your perspective on marriage as only a temporary covenant pertaining mostly to the concerns of life in this world that is passing away, we have to wonder how it can effectively really be the sacred heavenly mystery that is somehow connected to the eternal marriage bond that exists between Christ and the Church, if our marital bond in our human marriages simply dissolves away upon the death of one of the people who of whom God says "they are no longer two, but one flesh". Tell us, will we also no longer consume the body and blood of God when we are become "as the angels" feasting at the heavenly banquet, in the same way that we shall no longer be of one flesh with our own husbands or wives with Whom God permanently joined us? We thought that Sacraments always pertained to eternal Life and have no meaning outside of that context.

We also wonder if the majority of Christendom does not suffer from the same need for being taught by Christ about the purpose of the law that the Jews whom Christ was addressing had, when He came to give the more perfect revelation of God to us. Roman Catholic and Protestant perspectives on the marital covenant do not currently seem to go beyond what was already the mind of the Jews who were coming to Christ with their questions about marriage and divorce, as being nothing more than a legal arrangement with value only in this temporal world and in preparation for Life in God's Kingdom. But Christ reveals that marriage is far more than this in the eyes of God, especially when He says "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:28)

They all thought of themselves as obedient to God's command forbidding adultery as long as they had the appearance of those abiding by the letter of the law, Yet Christ spoke to them about this in a way that shows that they did not have the slightest spiritual understanding of the eternal implications of marriage, adultery, or divorce, because the were carnal and base, being greatly under the influence of their sin-hardened and faithless hearts. For until He said it, they were not even aware that they were indeed adulterers themselves, simply by virtue of looking upon someone besides their own spouse and lusting after them. How many young Roman Catholic married men and women would you guess have done this at one time or another, and continue to do it very automatically, thereby closing the door of their hearts to God by the power of this sin? How many Roman Catholic clergymen see many objects of their sexual desire and lust after that which they see - and then act on it? How many Roman Catholic bishops, when they receive accusations against such clergymen react to those accusations in strict accordance with the Apostolic laws by deposing them, rather than just moving them to another region to serve as clergy and receive Communion at the altar at some other geographical location where their past predatory sexual activities are not known about (refer to Canon 25 & 26 of the Apostolic Canons)? And yet for a long time such corrupt priests and bishops continue to be in the Church, presiding at the altar of God and consuming the Eucharistic gifts, at least until somebody finally does something about it.

But if one has suffered being divorced from their spouse, for reasons of sexual infidelity that has undermined and destroyed the bond that God made (because people can do this by the wrongful exercise of their freewill), and having been cheated out of being married they take another spouse, because of their inability to maintain celibacy, These are excluded from the Church and the life.

But if they can receive an annulment of their first marriage, which is where a Roman Catholic bishop determines that God did not really join those two into one flesh, so they were never really married, just fornicators because they thought they were married, then they may be married to someone new and not excluded from the Church and the life. This idea is very alien to Orthodoxy and to the divine word, because even though a bishop has authority to forgive or retain sins, They, as men, do not however have the authority to determine if the joining of the two persons into one flesh in marriage had been in accordance with God's will, or not. They may not make null what God has joined together. Sin can kill the covenant, but not the decrees of men. Men, given the authority to do so by God, can declare the sin to be forgiven, on the basis of what is best for people, with their eternal salvation being the greatest concern, and can also allow people who have become married to someone else after being divorced by their first spouse, to be included in the Church and the Life in Christ. The divine word, as St. Epiphanius has written and as the Holy Synod of Bishops in the Church have decreed, does not exclude the remarried from the Church and the full life of a member of the Church, except for possible periods of penance whenever spiritually expedient and beneficial." (posted by me, truefiction1, in a separate forum thread)
 
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Here is a copied and pasted post that I used to reply to a Roman Catholic person who has engaged me in an in depth discussion of the differences in how His Church views marriage, divorce, and annulment vs the Church I'm a member of: I don't know how many, if any of my arguments are completely accurate in the way that our Church sees these things, as I'm not thoroughly schooled in the Church fathers on these matters. But I offer my thoughts here in hopes of fueling further input from other Orthodox Christians who may be more knowledgeable than me in these things. Thanks.

"Well, as already stated, St. Epiphanius, Bishop of Cyprus (died 403AD) provided written testimony that if a man becomes separated from his first wife for a valid reason, that "if he take another wife" he is not excluded from the Church or the life. The synod of Orthodox Bishops state that this is the Orthodox way.

As far as your perspective on marriage as only a temporary covenant pertaining mostly to the concerns of life in this world that is passing away, we have to wonder how it can effectively really be the sacred heavenly mystery that is somehow connected to the eternal marriage bond that exists between Christ and the Church, if our marital bond in our human marriages simply dissolves away upon the death of one of the people who of whom God says "they are no longer two, but one flesh". Tell us, will we also no longer consume the body and blood of God when we are become "as the angels" feasting at the heavenly banquet, in the same way that we shall no longer be of one flesh with our own husbands or wives with Whom God permanently joined us? We thought that Sacraments always pertained to eternal Life and have no meaning outside of that context.

We also wonder if the majority of Christendom does not suffer from the same need for being taught by Christ about the purpose of the law that the Jews whom Christ was addressing had, when He came to give the more perfect revelation of God to us. Roman Catholic and Protestant perspectives on the marital covenant do not currently seem to go beyond what was already the mind of the Jews who were coming to Christ with their questions about marriage and divorce, as being nothing more than a legal arrangement with value only in this temporal world and in preparation for Life in God's Kingdom. But Christ reveals that marriage is far more than this in the eyes of God, especially when He says "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:28)

They all thought of themselves as obedient to God's command forbidding adultery as long as they had the appearance of those abiding by the letter of the law, Yet Christ spoke to them about this in a way that shows that they did not have the slightest spiritual understanding of the eternal implications of marriage, adultery, or divorce, because the were carnal and base, being greatly under the influence of their sin-hardened and faithless hearts. For until He said it, they were not even aware that they were indeed adulterers themselves, simply by virtue of looking upon someone besides their own spouse and lusting after them. How many young Roman Catholic married men and women would you guess have done this at one time or another, and continue to do it very automatically, thereby closing the door of their hearts to God by the power of this sin? How many Roman Catholic clergymen see many objects of their sexual desire and lust after that which they see - and then act on it? How many Roman Catholic bishops, when they receive accusations against such clergymen react to those accusations in strict accordance with the Apostolic laws by deposing them, rather than just moving them to another region to serve as clergy and receive Communion at the altar at some other geographical location where their past predatory sexual activities are not known about (refer to Canon 25 & 26 of the Apostolic Canons)? And yet for a long time such corrupt priests and bishops continue to be in the Church, presiding at the altar of God and consuming the Eucharistic gifts, at least until somebody finally does something about it.

But if one has suffered being divorced from their spouse, for reasons of sexual infidelity that has undermined and destroyed the bond that God made (because people can do this by the wrongful exercise of their freewill), and having been cheated out of being married they take another spouse, because of their inability to maintain celibacy, These are excluded from the Church and the life.

But if they can receive an annulment of their first marriage, which is where a Roman Catholic bishop determines that God did not really join those two into one flesh, so they were never really married, just fornicators because they thought they were married, then they may be married to someone new and not excluded from the Church and the life. This idea is very alien to Orthodoxy and to the divine word, because even though a bishop has authority to forgive or retain sins, They, as men, do not however have the authority to determine if the joining of the two persons into one flesh in marriage had been in accordance with God's will, or not. They may not make null what God has joined together. Sin can kill the covenant, but not the decrees of men. Men, given the authority to do so by God, can declare the sin to be forgiven, on the basis of what is best for people, with their eternal salvation being the greatest concern, and can also allow people who have become married to someone else after being divorced by their first spouse, to be included in the Church and the Life in Christ. The divine word, as St. Epiphanius has written and as the Holy Synod of Bishops in the Church have decreed, does not exclude the remarried from the Church and the full life of a member of the Church, except for possible periods of penance whenever spiritually expedient and beneficial." (posted by me, truefiction1, in a separate forum thread)
The Orthodox way of dealing with this issue is by far more pastoral. I say this as someone who strongly respects the strong stance of the RCC.
Here is a copied and pasted post that I used to reply to a Roman Catholic person who has engaged me in an in depth discussion of the differences in how His Church views marriage, divorce, and annulment vs the Church I'm a member of: I don't know how many, if any of my arguments are completely accurate in the way that our Church sees these things, as I'm not thoroughly schooled in the Church fathers on these matters. But I offer my thoughts here in hopes of fueling further input from other Orthodox Christians who may be more knowledgeable than me in these things. Thanks.

"Well, as already stated, St. Epiphanius, Bishop of Cyprus (died 403AD) provided written testimony that if a man becomes separated from his first wife for a valid reason, that "if he take another wife" he is not excluded from the Church or the life. The synod of Orthodox Bishops state that this is the Orthodox way.

As far as your perspective on marriage as only a temporary covenant pertaining mostly to the concerns of life in this world that is passing away, we have to wonder how it can effectively really be the sacred heavenly mystery that is somehow connected to the eternal marriage bond that exists between Christ and the Church, if our marital bond in our human marriages simply dissolves away upon the death of one of the people who of whom God says "they are no longer two, but one flesh". Tell us, will we also no longer consume the body and blood of God when we are become "as the angels" feasting at the heavenly banquet, in the same way that we shall no longer be of one flesh with our own husbands or wives with Whom God permanently joined us? We thought that Sacraments always pertained to eternal Life and have no meaning outside of that context.

We also wonder if the majority of Christendom does not suffer from the same need for being taught by Christ about the purpose of the law that the Jews whom Christ was addressing had, when He came to give the more perfect revelation of God to us. Roman Catholic and Protestant perspectives on the marital covenant do not currently seem to go beyond what was already the mind of the Jews who were coming to Christ with their questions about marriage and divorce, as being nothing more than a legal arrangement with value only in this temporal world and in preparation for Life in God's Kingdom. But Christ reveals that marriage is far more than this in the eyes of God, especially when He says "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:28)

They all thought of themselves as obedient to God's command forbidding adultery as long as they had the appearance of those abiding by the letter of the law, Yet Christ spoke to them about this in a way that shows that they did not have the slightest spiritual understanding of the eternal implications of marriage, adultery, or divorce, because the were carnal and base, being greatly under the influence of their sin-hardened and faithless hearts. For until He said it, they were not even aware that they were indeed adulterers themselves, simply by virtue of looking upon someone besides their own spouse and lusting after them. How many young Roman Catholic married men and women would you guess have done this at one time or another, and continue to do it very automatically, thereby closing the door of their hearts to God by the power of this sin? How many Roman Catholic clergymen see many objects of their sexual desire and lust after that which they see - and then act on it? How many Roman Catholic bishops, when they receive accusations against such clergymen react to those accusations in strict accordance with the Apostolic laws by deposing them, rather than just moving them to another region to serve as clergy and receive Communion at the altar at some other geographical location where their past predatory sexual activities are not known about (refer to Canon 25 & 26 of the Apostolic Canons)? And yet for a long time such corrupt priests and bishops continue to be in the Church, presiding at the altar of God and consuming the Eucharistic gifts, at least until somebody finally does something about it.

But if one has suffered being divorced from their spouse, for reasons of sexual infidelity that has undermined and destroyed the bond that God made (because people can do this by the wrongful exercise of their freewill), and having been cheated out of being married they take another spouse, because of their inability to maintain celibacy, These are excluded from the Church and the life.

But if they can receive an annulment of their first marriage, which is where a Roman Catholic bishop determines that God did not really join those two into one flesh, so they were never really married, just fornicators because they thought they were married, then they may be married to someone new and not excluded from the Church and the life. This idea is very alien to Orthodoxy and to the divine word, because even though a bishop has authority to forgive or retain sins, They, as men, do not however have the authority to determine if the joining of the two persons into one flesh in marriage had been in accordance with God's will, or not. They may not make null what God has joined together. Sin can kill the covenant, but not the decrees of men. Men, given the authority to do so by God, can declare the sin to be forgiven, on the basis of what is best for people, with their eternal salvation being the greatest concern, and can also allow people who have become married to someone else after being divorced by their first spouse, to be included in the Church and the Life in Christ. The divine word, as St. Epiphanius has written and as the Holy Synod of Bishops in the Church have decreed, does not exclude the remarried from the Church and the full life of a member of the Church, except for possible periods of penance whenever spiritually expedient and beneficial." (posted by me, truefiction1, in a separate forum thread)
Even though I'm just a lay person what you just posted seems the right and true position. And also the far more pastoral position.
 
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The Orthodox way of dealing with this issue is by far more pastoral. I say this as someone who strongly respects the strong stance of the RCC.

Even though I'm just a lay person what you just posted seems the right and true position. And also the far more pastoral position.
Thank you for your comments.
 
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rusmeister

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I've come to a very simple place, that cuts through all the fog.

You can't control what your spouse chooses to do. BUT...
Are you a Christian? Do you really seek to follow Christ, or is that all conditional?

Are we supposed to take up our crosses or not? Are we supposed to love our enemies or not?
Since the answer is yes, and yes, divorce is unthinkable for the serious Christian. All of our Tradition points to this, none of it says, "You may get divorced if..." Sure, the spouse might have to be committed to an insane asylum, or prison. But you're married.

Marriage is a type of Christ and His Church. Can anyone tell me the condition or circumstance where Christ will divorce the Church? Isn't that what we are called to?

It isn't rocket science. But everybody wants a "Get out of carrying your cross free" card. We all want to be an exception.
 
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