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I know this is an old thread, but I'm still looking to get to the bottom of how the very Early Church would have handled converts coming into the Church who have had previous marriages and and are now on their 2nd or third (or more marriage?)
I was interested to read an article(on a Protestant website I believe it was a couple of years ago.) where the early Church believed marriage survived the grave(Just like the Orthodox!). On the other hand the Shepard of Hermas forbid subsequent marriages and divorced persons had to remain single or reconcile with their spouses(supposedly to allow the errant spouse to repent.)
I presume the Early Church had pagan converts from Greece and ROme and other places and Judaism all which allowed divorce and remarriage. So I often wonder did they bring those converts in in the marriage they were in? Expect them to put way their spouses?
I know the Catholic Church would consider the possibilty that my husbands former marriage could be sacramental as the couple are ministers of the sacrament but I know the Orthodox don't look at it that way.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I know this is an old thread, but I'm still looking to get to the bottom of how the very Early Church would have handled converts coming into the Church who have had previous marriages and and are now on their 2nd or third (or more marriage?)
I was interested to read an article(on a Protestant website I believe it was a couple of years ago.) where the early Church believed marriage survived the grave(Just like the Orthodox!). On the other hand the Shepard of Hermas forbid subsequent marriages and divorced persons had to remain single or reconcile with their spouses(supposedly to allow the errant spouse to repent.)
I presume the Early Church had pagan converts from Greece and ROme and other places and Judaism all which allowed divorce and remarriage. So I often wonder did they bring those converts in in the marriage they were in? Expect them to put way their spouses?
I know the Catholic Church would consider the possibilty that my husbands former marriage could be sacramental as the couple are ministers of the sacrament but I know the Orthodox don't look at it that way.

my guess is it was probably case by case, using what Christ says in the Gospel as the rule.
 
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LizaMarie

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ArmyMatt

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rusmeister

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I don't disagree at all, but as I understand Orthodoxy, the principle is that, before we were baptized we all did all kinds of things. Maybe you were married and divorced several times, according to the way of the world. The question is, what are we going to do from now on? Will we, from this moment on, accept that divorce is not something we should be doing or OK with as Orthodox Christians; that for ourselves, we should certainly accept that the marriage we are in now is our last marriage, because there was only supposed to be one in the first place, but we all have sinned in one way or another, and it is a very lucky few who remain celibate virgins from birth until marriage, and then rightly choose to remain faithful. We can, from here on out, join those lucky ones in our attitude and behavior, and decide that we will be faithful, and no longer break the sacred unions we may have previously defiled and ruined. We can't control other people, not even our spouses - we can only encourage and exhort. But we CAN control ourselves and our own attitude.

I dislike calling divorce "a tragedy", though, insofar as it implies removing of our personal responsibility for failing to love failing to submit, failing to hold our marriages as holy, seeing it as just "until death do us part", a very Protestant, and not Orthodox view, or worse, seeing it as "I'll be with you as long as I feel sufficiently happy and satisfied with the marriage; when it gets super-hard and painful, I'm out". That's what crosses are. Hard and painful. But through Christian love (see the description in the Epistle) it may possibly be transformed into something much better. It's not guaranteed, but it is really hard to hate someone who is truly loving you as a Christian should, rejecting all resentment, anger, bearing the yelling, cursing that some of us may have heaped on our spouses, thinking ourselves justified. It IS possible to turn enemies into friends, even in marriages gone bad.

That's how I understand the Christian ideal we are called to, in the teachings of the Orthodox Church. See my signature below.
 
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Andrew.H

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I would guess it would also depend on if your marriage actually qualified as a genuine spiritual bond. In my own case, I was married in a courthouse previously. Would a purely worldly bond like that even be considered a form of marriage?
 
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LizaMarie

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I don't disagree at all, but as I understand Orthodoxy, the principle is that, before we were baptized we all did all kinds of things. Maybe you were married and divorced several times, according to the way of the world. The question is, what are we going to do from now on? Will we, from this moment on, accept that divorce is not something we should be doing or OK with as Orthodox Christians; that for ourselves, we should certainly accept that the marriage we are in now is our last marriage, because there was only supposed to be one in the first place, but we all have sinned in one way or another, and it is a very lucky few who remain celibate virgins from birth until marriage, and then rightly choose to remain faithful. We can, from here on out, join those lucky ones in our attitude and behavior, and decide that we will be faithful, and no longer break the sacred unions we may have previously defiled and ruined. We can't control other people, not even our spouses - we can only encourage and exhort. But we CAN control ourselves and our own attitude.

I dislike calling divorce "a tragedy", though, insofar as it implies removing of our personal responsibility for failing to love failing to submit, failing to hold our marriages as holy, seeing it as just "until death do us part", a very Protestant, and not Orthodox view, or worse, seeing it as "I'll be with you as long as I feel sufficiently happy and satisfied with the marriage; when it gets super-hard and painful, I'm out". That's what crosses are. Hard and painful. But through Christian love (see the description in the Epistle) it may possibly be transformed into something much better. It's not guaranteed, but it is really hard to hate someone who is truly loving you as a Christian should, rejecting all resentment, anger, bearing the yelling, cursing that some of us may have heaped on our spouses, thinking ourselves justified. It IS possible to turn enemies into friends, even in marriages gone bad.

That's how I understand the Christian ideal we are called to, in the teachings of the Orthodox Church. See my signature below.
I agree with everything you have said. My husband and I made vows in a Lutheran Church nearly 30 years ago in front of God and man and we intend to keep them(it hasn't always been easy.)
But I have also been told I may not be really married or be living in adultery as my husband may still be married to his first wife..If we were to join the RCC as we once considered(my husband is not longer interested in the RCC partly because of this)we would have to have my husband's previous marriage investigated. He would be willing to do so if I insist, but it's very intimidating for both of us. I do appreciate the Orthodox view on this subject, as long as it's what the Early Church would teach. he like the Orthodox(And Lutheran) view better. If I'm understanding the Orthodox view.
 
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rusmeister

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I would guess it would also depend on if your marriage actually qualified as a genuine spiritual bond. In my own case, I was married in a courthouse previously. Would a purely worldly bond like that even be considered a form of marriage?
Yes, but it is good to seek the blessing of the Church. A Church wedding is held to affirm in eternity what already exists in the flesh. It doesn’t mean in such cases that you “weren’t married”, but that your marriage has been sanctified, made holy as it ought to be in the Church. But part of the point is that the marriage does already exist. You are already one flesh. But have you submitted your marriage to Christ?
I’ve been married three times, all to the same woman. A civil service in Russia, followed by a civil service in the US for my family, and the Orthodox service 12 years later. In fact, the second one is a secular type of what I’m talking about. My family knew that we had already been married in Russia. But we were submitting that marriage to my family, so that they could witness and affirm it according to the laws and customs of my native land.

And when I became Orthodox, the same question stood for me. My wife and I had been separated for a short time, and the question was, “How are you going to hold your marriage from here on out?”
 
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rusmeister

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You don't have to be a member of the Catholic Church in order to ask for an annulment. An annulment process, which is an investigation of the facts of the marriage, can be a positive experience. What the Church looks at is if both in an initial marriage fully realized everything a marriage entailed and that a marriage is for a lifetime. So if either of the participants were not fully mature (there is not a specific age) or thought that if the marriage doesn't work out I can always get divorced, or were on drugs, alcohol, etc. or didn't consider the marriage before God, etc. and other reasons then a finding of annulment can be made.
Thanks, but this is a thread in the Orthodox sub-forum. We happen to think there are errors in the Catholic view of marriage, including the idea of annulments. We have a special sub-forum for disagreement, called "St Justin's". But here the idea of annulments is out-of-bounds and wrong. (I would characterize it as the general problem of legalism that Catholic teaching appears to be to Orthodox eyes, even if you do not see it so.)
 
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LizaMarie

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You don't have to be a member of the Catholic Church in order to ask for an annulment. An annulment process, which is an investigation of the facts of the marriage, can be a positive experience. What the Church looks at is if both in an initial marriage fully realized everything a marriage entailed and that a marriage is for a lifetime. So if either of the participants were not fully mature (there is not a specific age) or thought that if the marriage doesn't work out I can always get divorced, or were on drugs, alcohol, etc. or didn't consider the marriage before God, etc. and other reasons then a finding of annulment can be made.
Thanks,but at this point I think the Orthodox view at least on this issue seems more pastoral and honest. In both cases you have a bishop or church body "binding and losing." allowing another marriage even if the process is different. There are RCC teachings I do at this point agree with more than the East(Original sin) but at this point the annulment process reminds me of "Once saved always saved." that some Protestants teach. Their teaching is that if someone gives their life to Christ, than falls away and denounces Christ later on until death(and I've seen it in real life sadly) that that person was never really saved. The declaring a previous marriage not a real marriage seems like that. I do believe there are some rare cases that may be true, but it is a stumbling block for some trying to come into the RCC. Not saying I would never consider it, but it's my husbands call too since it's on his side and that would make it much harder for me.
 
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