Orlando & the West....and my sin.

[Light of the East]

I am profoundly troubled this morning as I read the various social media reports and messages regarding the mass murder in Orlando. I have read many posts which call for us as Christians to pray for, love, and help those who have been victims of the shooting.

I am appalled that when I first heard of the shootings, I felt nothing. I am deeply troubled that I have such a cold and indifferent heart to human suffering, and am so unlike our Lord in having love for all sinners.

What does the West have to do with this? Precisely this:

I attended Southern Fried Fundamentalist churches for 13 years. I had just come out of a life of tremendous evil myself, yet through the preaching in these churches, I was made to feel that somehow I am now "better than those terrible sinners" who have not come to Christ. There is a kind of triumphalist preaching in Fundamentalism (you know - we are right and God loves us because we are right, and everyone else is going to the hell they deserve). This sort of preaching breeds contempt for others, not Christian charity.

And it finds a particularly warm and inviting home in the hearts and minds of people who are already quite broken and who latch onto this sort of preaching as a way of feeling better about themselves. The ultimate expression of this is, of course, the Westboror Baptist bunch.

Then I went to PCA Calvinism for the next 12 years. Again, that Western mindset crops up: we are "the elect," and all others who are not elect are God's enemies. And you can tell who are God's enemies by how much they love sin and how depraved their sins are.

Finally, the preaching of God's wrath against sinners (think Jonathan Edwards) in both of these denominations made it quite clear to me that I was right to hate and despise these sinners. After all, our pastor hated them, called them "sodomites" and spoke, sometimes with great relish, of their eternal torment in a deserved lake of fire forever.

Do you see what I have lacked for 25 years - anything to do with the love of God. Any idea that God loves every single human being, that God is love, and love is how we are to treat all men and women, was either not preached, tepidly mentioned, or sometimes made fun of. I remember sermons in which God was presented as the angry, vengeful God who hates sinners.

God hates? I thought the Bible says that God is love.

Anyway, because of deep psychological scarring in my own soul, this putrid way of thinking has taken deep root in my soul. I am stunned at how heartless I am, yet professing to be a follower of the One who is love incarnate.

Not much I can do except pray, ask for the Holy Spirit, and continue to repent of such thinking. But this poison runs deep, and I again blame the Western theological approach - the vengeful God who hates sinners and tosses them into hell with glee - as bringing me to such a terrible place in my life.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Lord have mercy.

I'm familiar with such thinking, though it tended to feel "wrong" to me. But it's easier to identify that "wrongness" when it's directed at certain groups or certain sins, and harder to identify as being wrong when it has another target. So I've had de-programming to do as well.

This is where the gift of seeing one's own sins is a particular blessing. To meditate on one's own sins, and realize that God has extended grace in spite of them, helps. I also think a lot about Jesus' compassion for the woman caught in adultery, the Samaritan woman at the well, and the harlot who washed His feet with her tears. I think of Saul/Paul's persecution of the Church, Peter's threefold denial, and King David's adultery, and murder in attempt to cover it up. And I think of my own sin again.

It makes it easier for me to recognize Christ as having the heart to forgive all.

There are actually helpful little bits I have been given from the writings of the Saints, who teach us how to think about this situation or that, to begin to change our hearts. Put into practice, they really do work. Things like instead of getting offended, make excuses for the sins of others (NEVER for our own sins - our tendency is to do the opposite and excuse ourselves and blame others). Practiced over time, these kinds of things help tremendously. St. Maximos says we should learn to love every person, the worst sinner, as well as we love our own beloved child. I'm nowhere near there yet, nowhere near. But there are things we can do to begin to shape ourselves, with the grace and help of God. Don't despair. You can actively work on this.

 

[GregConstantine]

One of the foundations that Protestantism sits on that their understanding of salvation is juridical. Even the most free willed leaning Protestants still have a juridical understanding of salvation. This leads them to feel they can judge other people, whether they are Calvinists and believe they are members of the elect, or if someone has not accepted the Lord Jesus into their hearts as their Lord and Savior, they can point to any one person or group of people and say "they are not saved."

We Orthodox of course, start from a very different place than the above, and say we cannot say that anyone is "saved", even ourselves. While we might use juridical language to explain or express something about our salvation, salvation for us is primarily a process of healing and reconciliation.

 

[Light of the East]

One of the foundations that Protestantism sits on that their understanding of salvation is juridical. Even the most free willed leaning Protestants still have a juridical understanding of salvation. This leads them to feel they can judge other people, whether they are Calvinists and believe they are members of the elect, or if someone has not accepted the Lord Jesus into their hearts as their Lord and Savior, they can point to any one person or group of people and say "they are not saved."

We Orthodox of course, start from a very different place than the above, and say we cannot say that anyone is "saved", even ourselves. While we might use juridical language to explain or express something about our salvation, salvation for us is primarily a process of healing and reconciliation.

Greg, that is a succinct and direct explanation of the corruption of Western theology and soteriology. Once you have been judged "Not Guilty" by the Divine Judge, then He invites you to sit on his panel and pass judgment on all others. And you can feel.....



soooooooooooo pleased with yourself. (Lord have mercy on me!)

 

[gzt]

I would not immediately be worried too much about not "feeling" anything when you heard the news - it's "normal" to display some detachment from distant events that you're hearing about by words alone. It's a protective mechanism.

There's also another protective mechanism, by the way, when something tragic happens that's close (say, when somebody close in your family dies suddenly). You're in shock and you haven't processed it yet, so you may not feel something. Sometimes people feel bad about that, but it's perfectly "natural".

Feelings are important, but one shouldn't moralize them. They're things to work with, but have a basis that's often deeper than what we can directly or indirectly be responsible for.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

OP: I'm also feeling not so much pity as I should, but more frustration. Islam is a dangerous "religion" and should be, as Trump is calling for, banned from further immigration for a while. We need to crack down on Muslims, we need to shut up these liberal morons who try to blame guns for this, and I'm more fearful about the ramifications of this shooting than I am sad about the shooting. Part of me says, "Men looking to 'hook up' and give each other sodomy and oral sex shouldn't have been doing that" and I just can't get as worked up about it as I should. These folks are dying with some seriously bad sins unforgiven on their souls. This whole massacre will only give the LGBT hordes more power, sympathy, and love. I find the lifestyle ungodly, repugnant, and people engaging in hedonistic evils like this are putting themselves in harm's way with STD's, AIDS, and now violence from the "religion of peace."

I hate this sin so very much that sometimes it clouds my pity. I need to work on that.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Lord have mercy on all of us who struggle with our heterodox baggage

 

[AlaskaFan]

OP: I'm also feeling not so much pity as I should, but more frustration. Islam is a dangerous "religion" and should be, as Trump is calling for, banned from further immigration for a while. We need to crack down on Muslims, we need to shut up these liberal morons who try to blame guns for this, and I'm more fearful about the ramifications of this shooting than I am sad about the shooting. Part of me says, "Men looking to 'hook up' and give each other sodomy and oral sex shouldn't have been doing that" and I just can't get as worked up about it as I should. These folks are dying with some seriously bad sins unforgiven on their souls. This whole massacre will only give the LGBT hordes more power, sympathy, and love. I find the lifestyle ungodly, repugnant, and people engaging in hedonistic evils like this are putting themselves in harm's way with STD's, AIDS, and now violence from the "religion of peace."

I hate this sin so very much that sometimes it clouds my pity. I need to work on that.

I'm also not as worked up about this as I was with San Bernardino or 9/11. Of course terrorists need to be eradicated, no matter who they go after, but this particular attack hasn't garnered much emotion inside me. I do pray for the souls of the murdered and their families.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hey now!! LOL

Lord have mercy on all of us who struggle with our heterodox baggage

 

[BadHabit]

I also have been troubled at how callous I feel about the recent mass shooting. I think I should feel something, but I just don't, and it bothers me.

 

[Light of the East]

OP: I'm also feeling not so much pity as I should, but more frustration. Islam is a dangerous "religion" and should be, as Trump is calling for, banned from further immigration for a while. We need to crack down on Muslims, we need to shut up these liberal morons who try to blame guns for this, and I'm more fearful about the ramifications of this shooting than I am sad about the shooting. Part of me says, "Men looking to 'hook up' and give each other sodomy and oral sex shouldn't have been doing that" and I just can't get as worked up about it as I should. These folks are dying with some seriously bad sins unforgiven on their souls. This whole massacre will only give the LGBT hordes more power, sympathy, and love. I find the lifestyle ungodly, repugnant, and people engaging in hedonistic evils like this are putting themselves in harm's way with STD's, AIDS, and now violence from the "religion of peace."

I hate this sin so very much that sometimes it clouds my pity. I need to work on that.

I understand, and this is what makes men like the monks of Mt. Athos so amazing in their love for even the worst of sinners.

 

[Cappadocious]

Islam is a dangerous "religion"...blame guns for this

Can't it be both?

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

Can't it be both?

No, If someone wants to kill somebody, they will find a way, It would of been worse if this jihadists smashed a car packed with explosives into the sodomite club, a lot of people also would of died if he went on a stabing rampage. Even some Muslims crashing planes into towers, took more lives than a Muslim with a gun, although both type of Muslim is deadly, with a plan or a gun.

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

I been mixed on this thing, I'm worried because instead of calling out the Muslims it turing into a agenda to advacing Homosexual agenda, already the ACLU (started by communists) are blaming Christians, and not the jihadist Muslims. The left is making a hay out of "intolerance" towards "gay rights" by Christians, while on the other hand calling for gun control.

On the other hand, I can't imaging Orthodox Christians pulling off this attack, Father even prayed for these sinners who were killed for their memories be eternal after liturgy on Sunday, plus the Monks on Mount Athos pray for everyone, even the worst of sinners. This attack is disgusting, even if I detest Homosexuality and the agenda of the Gay community to normalize sin, attack Christianity, and break up the traditional family.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

No, it cannot. For one thing, liberals can't even get things right in their "understanding" of firearms. We hear "clips" over and over. As if a clip and a magazine are the same. We hear of all these "automatic weapons" that people can easily buy. Any fool knows automatic weapons have been illegal for the better part of 80 years.

This Muslim wackadoodle was out to kill, pure and simple. If he hadn't gotten that AR-15, he'd have gotten a hold of something else. A pipe bomb could've accomplished the same carnage. All you need is a few easily-obtained chemicals to make one. A shotgun could've killed plenty if not more. Setting people on fire, running them over down the street, it goes on and on. A Muslim radical freakshow bent on killing WILL KILL.

So no, guns aren't the problem. While this shooter obtained his AR legally, obtaining semi-autos over the border, on the black market, under the table is really easy. Illegal weapons come into this country on ships and over the Mexican border on a daily basis. You won't stop them even if you wanted to. And I don't want to.

Personally I hate AR's. Any rifle made with a forward assist and being so prone to jams and utterly ugly to field strip is a turn off for me. A Ruger Mini 14 or an AK would've been even more efficient if you ask me.

We need to blame the FBI in this case, not Armalite and Colt. The feds had already flagged this guy. They had him on their radar. He was a ticking time bomb.

This country needs to invest FAR MORE into mental health, I'm all for background checks and live scans, and we need to ban Muslims from entering this country. We need to watch them like a hawk. We also need to get rid of gun-free zones so somebody is present who can stop lunatics.

Can't it be both?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Two terrible blights, blotches, stains on the Earth are homosexuals and Islam. This week we got two sinful entities entering each other's space. Watching all these men cuddling after the massacre made me want to vomit in my mouth a bit. They kept switching the camera from the Muslim nutjob's selfies to these effeminate guys hugging and holding each other stroking one another's hair. Truly tough to watch between the death, the Muslim, and the rainbow scenes.

I been mixed on this thing, I'm worried because instead of calling out the Muslims it turing into a agenda to advacing Homosexual agenda, already the ACLU (started by communists) are blaming Christians, and not the jihadist Muslims. The left is making a hay out of "intolerance" towards "gay rights" by Christians, while on the other hand calling for gun control.

On the other hand, I can't imaging Orthodox Christians pulling off this attack, Father even prayed for these sinners who were killed for their memories be eternal after liturgy on Sunday, plus the Monks on Mount Athos pray for everyone, even the worst of sinners. This attack is disgusting, even if I detest Homosexuality and the agenda of the Gay community to normalize sin, attack Christianity, and break up the traditional family.

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

Two terrible blights, blotches, stains on the Earth are homosexuals and Islam. This week we got two sinful entities entering each other's space. Watching all these men cuddling after the massacre made me want to vomit in my mouth a bit. They kept switching the camera from the Muslim nutjob's selfies to these effeminate guys hugging and holding each other stroking one another's hair. Truly tough to watch between the death, the Muslim, and the rainbow scenes.

Now I know how Eastern Europe felt being stick between Stalin and Hitler, with this Muslim Vs Homosexual nonsense.

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

No, it cannot. For one thing, liberals can't even get things right in their "understanding" of firearms. We hear "clips" over and over. As if a clip and a magazine are the same. We hear of all these "automatic weapons" that people can easily buy. Any fool knows automatic weapons have been illegal for the better part of 80 years.

This Muslim wackadoodle was out to kill, pure and simple. If he hadn't gotten that AR-15, he'd have gotten a hold of something else. A pipe bomb could've accomplished the same carnage. All you need is a few easily-obtained chemicals to make one. A shotgun could've killed plenty if not more. Setting people on fire, running them over down the street, it goes on and on. A Muslim radical freakshow bent on killing WILL KILL.

So no, guns aren't the problem. While this shooter obtained his AR legally, obtaining semi-autos over the border, on the black market, under the table is really easy. Illegal weapons come into this country on ships and over the Mexican border on a daily basis. You won't stop them even if you wanted to. And I don't want to.

Personally I hate AR's. Any rifle made with a forward assist and being so prone to jams and utterly ugly to field strip is a turn off for me. A Ruger Mini 14 or an AK would've been even more efficient if you ask me.

We need to blame the FBI in this case, not Armalite and Colt. The feds had already flagged this guy. They had him on their radar. He was a ticking time bomb.

This country needs to invest FAR MORE into mental health, I'm all for background checks and live scans, and we need to ban Muslims from entering this country. We need to watch them like a hawk. We also need to get rid of gun-free zones so somebody is present who can stop lunatics.

Lol the president was saying the scumbag had some glock with extended clips, totally sounded clueless on what happened, a glock with clips mowing down 50 people? totally out of touch.

 

[prodromos]

It is a little bit ironic that of all the people who turned up to donate blood for the shooting victims, the only ones who could not donate blood were the homosexuals.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Yeah, it's amazing. I have never seen so many people ignorant about firearms and yet boldly claiming to know so much. It's odd to say the least.

Last week my wife was doing selfies of herself at the rifle range holding an AK LOL!! Then she says, "honey, can you film me shooting your .45?" LOL. She puts it on Facebook. LOL!!!

Lol the president was saying the scumbag had some glock with extended clips, totally sounded clueless on what happened, a glock with clips mowing down 50 people? totally out of touch.