Original Sin

~Anastasia~

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Wow thank you all for your replies!
There's so much for me to learn it's overwhelming but also exciting.
How can we rid ourselves of sin?
Are all the bad things that happen to us a result of this ancestral sin?

These are big - very big - questions, by the way.

Yes, everything bad/evil that happens through history is the result of sin. And since sin itself is the result of ancestral sin, I think we have to answer your question yes.

As to ridding ourselves of sin? That is something we cannot do, but requires the grace of God. It is a worthwhile effort to begin, but you should know that we do not have an expectation of ridding ourselves completely of sin while in this life. It is a process. We begin to address gross sin, we sin less, and along the way, we become closer to God ... which also makes us aware of finer degrees of sin which we were blinded to before. The result is that over time, we sin much less (if we cooperate with the grace of God and apply ourselves to discipline), but ironically at the same time, we become worse sinners in our own eyes than we were before. That's actually a good thing, because that first set of victories can actually lead to pride, if we can't truly begin to see ourselves more as God is actually aware of us. And the pride is more deadly spiritually than those other sins would have been. So ideally, we grow in humility, we are slowly purified, we become increasingly aware of our sins, we become more like Christ, we grow closer to God. All in increasing degrees.

The how ... could fill books, and has, lol. But I will say that is one thing that initially attracted me very much to Orthodoxy, because instead of just telling us to do better, the Church offers many concrete and effective tools and disciplines, and tailored guidance, in order to help us actually DO it.

These range from fasting, to the Eucharist, Confession, spiritual counsels, learning to be aware of our thoughts, the Jesus Prayer, the formal prayers of the Church (which serve to change us), and much more.
 
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AlexDTX

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Forgive me ... my intent is not to argue with you. Just seeking the nuances, since as you said that is the point of discussion? Especially for the sake of the OP, who specifically asked to tease out the differences. I think that's what we are all seeking to do.

I have been taught in various (Protestant) denominations that sin is physically transmitted via sperm, which was supposedly the reason why Christ had no sinful nature. I just think we would say it a bit differently. As @Platina noted, we do employ a fallen means of reproduction, in a fallen world. So perhaps the details don't actually matter in the course of how we live our lives, or for the sake of our salvation.

But I know that we wouldn't say that Christ's human nature is unfallen because the Virgin Mary's was unfallen from her conception, as Catholics would argue. As to sexual transmission of fallenness, I'm less sure of who teaches what, but I'm very inclined to trust @ArmyMatt above for expounding the history and Orthodox beliefs.

I'm just discussing, along with everyone, hoping to learn more myself, and addressing for the sake of the OP. Forgive me please if I offended you in any way by clarifying our take on your post.

No offense taken. In fact I have been thinking further on the topic. It is agreed that Jesus was sinless at birth and remained sinless until he took our sins upon himself on the cross. We agree that Mary was a virgin and the conception of Jesus the result of the Holy Spirit coming upon her.

I think the Catholic doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary is because they assume that sin is in the body, therefore if Mary was a sinner like the rest of us, then her sinful flesh would contaminate the birth of the Messiah. Again, I do not know the actual Catholic reasoning on this point, but this is what I think they assume. This assumption seems to believe that the material world is sinful but not the spiritual world. If that were true, then how are Lucifer and his rebellious angels, who are all spiritual entities, without sin?

In explaining our justification, Paul says in Romans:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

This sounds like all inherit sin from that one man, Adam. If not, no one is capable of living a sinless life, "for that all have sinned."

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.​

Once again, sure sounds like we all inherit the sin of Adam. And if not, then how does the sinless life of Jesus make us all righteous? I mean, if we are born without sin, and the influence of sin around us causes us to sin, it makes no sense that one man's righteousness justifies me when his influence is not around me. So I stand on the belief that all are born in sin. As far as I know, David did not mean his mother committed adultery when he said:

Psa_51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.​

So if Mary was a sinner like you and me, and she was, how was the original sin passed on? It could not be the blood of the man, for the blood of the woman is what grows the infant. Since God is a Spirit, it might be that the spirit of the man passes on the sin. However, apart from the sperm, how could the spirit be passed on? Medical science is too materialistic and denies the spirit. What is DNA? Could it be the physical expression of the spirit? Thus the spirit of the father joins with the spirit of the mother through the combined DNA? I don't know. I am sure the Holy Spirit did not deposit sperm into Mary. Instead, the Spirit of the Word was expressed as DNA which combined with the egg of Mary.

This is all speculation. I am merely sharing my thinking on the topic.
 
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Adam's "job" if you will, was to bind the entire creation to God by "becoming by grace what God is by nature". Had Adam (who was special in that he was formed directly by God and the Holy Spirit -- not conceived of a man and woman) accepted, all of creation would have remained "Enlivened" by the power of God residing in Adam and all of his kin (the entirety of humankind forever) When Adam rejected his destiny, all of creation was separated from the power of God that "Adam" needed in order to be the "upholder" of it by means of his perfect communion with God. All of creation fell. It is the fallen-ness of creation that transmits fallen-ness to all, not sperm, not egg, not conception. We all depended on the first Adam to connect us to the Power of God. When he fell we all fell with him.

Some fathers may have held various views about the transmission of original sin, but personal views aren't necessarily dogmatic decrees of the Church. The consensus of the Church is that ancestral sin created an irreversible (by mere human effort) condition into which all who are born of Adam's lineage are subject, even if they are not personally guilty of committing any intentional disobedience.

The means by which God chooses (before the foundation of the world) to reverse the curse is to bring another "Adam" into creation: not by procreation, but rather, in the same way that the first Adam had been formed, yet in such a way that the first Adam's failure could not be duplicated. The first Adam was personally formed by God by the Holy Spirit, Who took some of the "earth" and "breathed into it" so that it would become a "living soul", as described in Genesis. The second Adam (Christ) was personally formed by God by the Holy Spirit, Who took some of the "earth" (an egg from the ovaries of the Theotokos) and "breathed into it", thereby causing the "Word to become Flesh". So we see that only the man formed by the Holy Spirit is able to bind all of creation to God. The first man to be formed by the Holy Spirit didn't, and died, so that he could not bind us. The second man, Christ, was not capable of sin because He is the Eternal Word of God, and He does bind us, because He cannot sin, and so He cannot die.
 
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ArmyMatt

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you also gotta watch Romans 5 since St Jerome could not translate it properly from the Greek to Latin.

Christ's sinlessness life makes us righteous and holy as long as we stay in communion with Him.
 
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AlexDTX

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How do we become aware of our sin in the first place?
Getting caught. When I was a child I was raised in an atheist, socialist home without any clear instruction on morality. One day I got caught in the act of sin, and I was flushed with guilt. Even as a child I was astonished by my feeling. At that time I realized that right and wrong were not things taught but are a knowledge that is in our hearts already. Otherwise, I would not have felt guilty since I was never taught that my behavior at that time was wrong, yet I knew it was when I was caught in the act.
 
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AlexDTX

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@Reno Raines
My story is meant to simply illustrate a first step in being aware of sin as an answer to your question. The path to salvation was still a long way away since that story happened when I was 12 and I did not come to know Christ until I was 32. However, that incident made me aware that I was a sinner. I still did not understand my need for salvation at that time and much more was needed to bring me to Christ.
 
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AlexDTX

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Thanks Alex,
Would you mind telling me a little bit more about how you found Christ at 32?

This is a long story. Before my experience at the age of 12, I had a Catholic friend at the age of 5. His religion was strange to me. I asked him who was Jesus and he told me he was God. His answer made no sense to me. How can a man become God? Nonetheless, I remember crying out to Jesus for him to save me at that age. With no church or encouragement in faith, nothing changed in me. Although in hindsight I believe Jesus answered my prayer and came into my heart as a dormant seed. When I was 10 years old I remember my father looking me in the eyes and telling me that there is no God. I remember the thought going through my mind, Yes there is, in contradiction to his statement. I also remember at that age in speaking spontaneously in tongues. I had no idea what that was, then I heard about the Southern States snake handlers who spoke in Glossolalia. I was very interested in that topic since I had that spontaneous experience, although I never pursued it.

As a teenager I began reading the Carlos Castaneda books on the Yaqi Indian who took peyote to access the spiritual world. I grew up in the San Francisco bay area during the 1960's where drug taking was quite common among the teens. So I read his books, took LSD on occasion, and tried to be consciously aware of myself in my dreams by writing down all my dreams in a journal. This did make me aware of my being in a dream when I was asleep. Later on I was told that the Castaneda books were actually fiction, although I do not know for sure.

As a young man, after graduating high school, I moved to the northwest when I was 19. Because of my dream journal-ling, I had out of body experiences where I would sit up in bed and "see" the room I was sleeping in and could "see" my astral body, which I believe now to be my soul. My arms and legs were translucent white. At that time in the northwest, I decided I should find out why this book called the Bible was so popular and had lasted thousands of years. So I read the book from cover to cover, with the exception of Psalms which I assumed was merely poetry. During my reading of the Gospels I had two rhema experiences (rhema is the Greek word for spoken word, and is used by Pentecostals in reference to the experience of a verse "jumping out at you"). The first verse was in the Beatitudes: Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. When I read that I knew that I would someday see God. The second verse was in the parable of the sower and the seed: the good soil bore fruit a hundredfold. I knew, too, that I was good soil.

I have always been an avid reader. And I loved science fiction and fantasy. I had read "Brave New World" and I still love "The Lord of the Rings". During this time while reading the Bible, I had a dream where I was in a friend's house in his living room with the TV on. An old man came up to me who had a frisky quality and very youthful feel about him. He told me the book, "Brave New World" was going to be on TV. I thought that was great. The old man sat down on the couch in what I had considered to be my spot, so I stabbed him in the butt with a small knife. He got up and apologized for taking my spot. When the show came on TV, instead of "Brave New World" the title of the show was "The Silmarillion". This dream happened in 1974. At that same time I had found a book store that I was buying fantasy books from. The Wizard of Oz series, George MacDonald's books, and CS Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia and Perelandra trilogy. The bookstore was a Christian bookstore, although I was unaware of the significance at that time. I told the bookstore owner about my dream and he told me that the Silmarillion was an unpublished book [it was first published in 1977) that was scheduled to be published in a few years by JRR Tolkien. I was thunderstruck. I had never heard of this book before, so I knew it could not have been a subconscious memory. I knew I had a dream that had come from God.

In hindsight as a Christian I understand the dream. The old man was the Lord. The spot on the couch was my control of my life of which I was not ready to yield to him. He was very gracious in letting me keep my spot. The Brave New World was not the Huxley book, but the Bible. And the Silmarillion is Tolkien's bible of Middle Earth.

Shortly afterwards I had an out of body experience. I had sat up in my bed with my soul and saw a large orange orb floating in front of me. The orb came towards me and became smaller. My jaw dropped with my mouth opened, and the orb came inside me. To this day, I do not know what that means, or what it was. Perhaps it was the Lord germinating in my heart.

Flash forward to when I was 32. I had by that time moved to the east coast and had tried to create my own acrobatic gymnastics program, but lacked the knowledge to train high levels. There was a Russian Jew who was both a Moscow circus performer and Soviet Sport School acrobat who had moved to New Orleans and created the premier program in the country. I knew I had to move south and train with him to increase my knowledge. A friend told me that this coach had become a Christian and was known for his evangelism. I did not care. I needed the knowledge.

Shortly before moving, I had another out of body experience where I was visited by an angel that I could not see but I knew was in front of me. She (I knew she was a female angel by the sound of her laugh that I heard) cleansed me with something like electric scan lines we used to see on TV screens. I felt very strong as a gymnast and had a great workout later that day.

In New Orleans, my coach Igor, asked me some important questions. Did I believe in God? Yes I did because of my dream experiences. Did I believe that Jesus was God? No, I held fast to my childhood reasoning that a man could not become God. Did I believe that all things were possible with God? Yes, of course. Then could it be possible for God to become a man? The light bulb lit up. It never occurred to me that God could become a man. Put that way, of course it was possible. Did I believe in a spiritual world? Oh yes. I was certain there were angels. Did I believe in Satan? Absolutely not. Why not? Don't you think it would be to Satan's advantage for people not to believe he exists? After all, if I were a thief, I would not want people to know I was here. That made sense to me. And I knew angels existed, and I was told that Satan was a fallen angel. Suddenly, I realized that I had an enemy who wanted my destruction. Suddenly I realized that I needed a Savior, and at that moment I believed the Gospel. I prayed with Igor to receive Christ into my heart that night, which was a Friday night. On Sunday morning I had an overwhelming sense that I needed to go to church with him. He attended the Assemblies of God in Metairie. I sat through the service not understanding anything that was said. But when they gave the altar call, I jumped out of my seat, stumbled over Igor and our friends in the pew and actually ran to the front. In front of 500 people I raised my arms and cried out to Jesus to save me. The Holy Spirit came on me like oil poured over my head and I wept for 3 hours uncontrollably. I did not understand at the time why I was crying, but in hindsight I know I was weeping for all my sins. Three days later, Igor prayed with me to speak in tongues.

I hope my story helps you.

By the way, as a post script, I was sharing the Gospel with a woman in a laundromat while I was doing my laundry. A little black boy came up to me and asked me if I was a preacher. Only being a year in the Lord (1987), I said, I guess, since I never thought of myself in that way. The little boy told me that I had a phone call on the pay phone. When I picked up the phone a woman on the other end told me I was doing a great job preaching the Gospel and to keep up the good work. I recognized the voice and asked her if she was an angel and what was her name. She said Yes, her name was Helen. I asked her if she was with me when I lived on the east coast. She said, Yes, how did I know? I told her I heard her laugh. I had never heard from Helen again, because I did not need to hear her again. I could now hear Jesus directly. Hebrews tells us:

Heb_1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?​

I was no longer in a "shall be" but was now already saved.
 
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Glaucus

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Getting caught. When I was a child I was raised in an atheist, socialist home without any clear instruction on morality. One day I got caught in the act of sin, and I was flushed with guilt. Even as a child I was astonished by my feeling. At that time I realized that right and wrong were not things taught but are a knowledge that is in our hearts already. Otherwise, I would not have felt guilty since I was never taught that my behavior at that time was wrong, yet I knew it was when I was caught in the act.
This is going to perhaps sound disturbing and vulgar, but I do not mean for it to be so. "It is what it is."

So, without further ado...

I think this is most clearly seen is sexual immorality, especially masturbation at a young age. It is commonly and clearly documented, that there is a sense of guilt over masturbation immediately upon the climax. Most of us who have masturbated know this guilt. It isn't something we are taught. It is the Law of God written on our hearts.
 
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AlexDTX

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This is going to perhaps sound disturbing and vulgar, but I do not mean for it to be so. "It is what it is."

So, without further ado...

I think this is most clearly seen is sexual immorality, especially masturbation at a young age. It is commonly and clearly documented, that there is a sense of guilt over masturbation immediately upon the climax. Most of us who have masturbated know this guilt. It isn't something we are taught. It is the Law of God written on our hearts.
Yes it was sexual sin on my part, but I did not want to draw more attention to it than was needed. But you are right.
 
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This is going to perhaps sound disturbing and vulgar, but I do not mean for it to be so. "It is what it is."

So, without further ado...

I think this is most clearly seen is sexual immorality, especially masturbation at a young age. It is commonly and clearly documented, that there is a sense of guilt over masturbation immediately upon the climax. Most of us who have masturbated know this guilt. It isn't something we are taught. It is the Law of God written on our hearts.
The feelings serve a purpose towards our survival as a species. The guilt is natural for mankind (since the fall), as is the urge to procreate. Both lend themselves to the greater chance of survival for our species. (See the statement in the signature below). If not for the urge toward climax we wouldn't reproduce enough, and if not for the restraint of conscience (guilt) we'd behave in sexual ways that would increase the odds of our contracting deadly diseases. Our tendency to have these feelings, especially at puberty and as young adults, and respond rightly to them is a genetic adaptation.
 
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This is going to perhaps sound disturbing and vulgar, but I do not mean for it to be so. "It is what it is."

So, without further ado...

I think this is most clearly seen is sexual immorality, especially masturbation at a young age. It is commonly and clearly documented, that there is a sense of guilt over masturbation immediately upon the climax. Most of us who have masturbated know this guilt. It isn't something we are taught. It is the Law of God written on our hearts.
I would add, that sexuality and mortality are sort of tied together. When Adam and Eve disobeyed, they instantly lost their communicated Divinity and became mortal. The sudden awareness of their mortality caused a sense of shame/guilt. In Genesis this is metaphorically depicted by the "nakedness" of Adam and Eve, in which they had suddenly become aware of their "stripped" condition. In other words, they were stripped of Godliness and become as the mere lesser beasts, which breed and die.

Children can often have far greater sensitivity/awareness of the guilt associated with sexuality than their older counterparts. This is likely because as children, they have not yet developed the automatic/habitual mechanisms (passions) that help us progressively more sinful adults to "forget about death" and the guilt of being stripped of Godliness. In other words, they feel "mortality guilt" much more strongly than older adults who often engage in sexual activity without feeling any shame.

Then again, the desire to keep this sort of thing "private" probably promotes monogamous pairings in the overall human population, and is the most advantageous custom in human communities for a variety of very good reasons. God gives laws because God wants us to truly Live the Life that is our gift. Holy Matrimony between one man and one woman forever is one of those most essential laws that is a great gift to us.
 
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What is "Original Sin?' | Saint George Greek Orthodox Cathedral

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