Original Sin

Ioustinos

Veteran
Feb 6, 2002
1,719
175
✟56,948.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
I'll try to give a summary although others with a better understanding may correct or add to what I say.

The Orthodox Church does not teach original sin as most Catholics and Protestants understand the idea. The Orthodox Church believes in ancestral sin. When God created man He called it good. Even though man fell he still retains that goodness however he lives in a world that is effected by the results of the fall. So all mankind inherits this ancestral sin in the sense that we all must live in a world which is tainted, for a lack of a better expression, by sin. However, man is still inherently good. That is why Jesus Christ was able to take on humanity and not sin. He didn't take on a different nature than we have but He was able to live a life after the commandments even though He lived within a fallen world.
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Hi Reno, Our first ancestors sinned, so they became subject to decay and mortality. The whole of humanity is connected (in a mysterious ontological manner) as if one very large being glued together over time and space, so that death and sin spread to all of humankind from the time that these were introduced by those who were the first to sin. It is a condition that all are born into, except Jesus Christ because He is God the word in the flesh, and there can be no sin in God. But all of us, even though born into this condition, and be born again by faith in Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit, which makes us children of our Father in heaven and recipients of Eternal Life. The Orthodox prefer to use the term "ancestral sin" over original sin.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,560
20,079
41
Earth
✟1,466,215.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
the big difference is there is to original guilt. yes, we must live with the effects of original sin (i.e. mortality, corruption, and an inclination to sin), but we are only guilty of our own sins.
 
Upvote 0

Ignatius21

Can somebody please pass the incense?
May 21, 2009
2,237
321
Dayton, OH
✟22,008.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I think it's fair (if oversimplified) to say that each "side" (western, eastern) sees "original sin" (i.e. the effects upon humanity of the first sin of humanity, that of disobeying God in the garden) according to the way in which it primarily understands all sin.

Western theology generally emphasizes the juridical or legal aspect--sin makes us guilty before God of breaking the divine law. Broken law demands retribution so that justice may be satisfied, and it is not fitting that God (who is just) should allow sin to go unpunished. Death is often spoken of as punishment. "Hell" is often seen as an eternity of punishment.

Eastern theology generally emphasizes the broken relationship between God and humanity that results from sin. A broken relationship must be restored, and it is not fitting that God (who is love) should allow his children to remain in a separated state, in bondage to his enemy (Satan). Death is often spoken of as a consequence of this broken relationship, and "Hell" is often seen as an eternity of misery that results from the rejection of God's eternal love.

Sometimes people will drive these views to their extremes and state that the West is all one way, and the East is all the other way. It's more a matter of emphasis, with some people reaching extremes in some places and at some times throughout history. But even there, the views are never as simplistic as they're often made to seem. And you have to bear in mind that over time, as different groups separated from each other, there was always the tendency to develop theology in reaction to another school of thought--something that tends to polarize people's thinking.

I'd recommend you read St. Athanasius of Alexandria, "On the Incarnation." You'll see both strands of thought brought together in a nice harmony that I would say pretty well typifies Eastern thought.
 
Upvote 0

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,818
✟328,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I realize that this is an Eastern Orthodox thread, so forgive me for providing an unorthodox response. I share this as additional food for thought. In my opinion, when Adam and Eve fell in the garden, they were changed from perfection to imperfection. I have been told that the word, "sin" is an archery expression and means "to have missed the mark", or to have erred. I see this fundamental error has infected the entire universe and is called entropy by physicists. Consequently all born from Adam and Eve, and all their descendants, passed on this imperfection to every generation.

The Gospel is the beginning of a new humanity, and a new creation. Evidently this imperfection called sin is passed on to the next generation by the sperm not the egg. Thus the virgin birth of Jesus enabled him to be born perfect, sinless. Since, as an adult, he accepted the sins of the world upon himself, he who knew no sin became sin so we might become the righteousness of God in him. But since those sins were not his, he was justified and raised from the dead. He became the first fruits from the dead. The hope of all who trust in Christ is that we, too, will be raised from the dead in perfection, sinless, as he is. But it is more than that. Since our lives are joined to his by the Holy Spirit, that Spirit within us will be our guarantee to never sin again. That means in the new heaven and new earth, perfection will remain forever. No more pain, no more tears, no more sin. This is the hope of all who have been born again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Reno Raines
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,545
3,816
USA
✟268,974.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
the big difference is there is to original guilt. yes, we must live with the effects of original sin (i.e. mortality, corruption, and an inclination to sin), but we are only guilty of our own sins.
So you don't believe that we are born sinners?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Reno Raines
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,560
20,079
41
Earth
✟1,466,215.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
So you don't believe that we are born sinners?

we are, but not because we did anything wrong or are guilty. we are born ensnared in sin because we are born corrupt and mortal, and so we all need the Savior, and thus are sinners from our mother's womb. so we are all still sinful even if not guilty of anything.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,594
12,122
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,181,104.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
In my opinion, when Adam and Eve fell in the garden, they were changed from perfection to imperfection.
God called what He created, "good" Not "perfect". Adam and Eve were created with the potential to become more like God through obedience, but only God is perfect in Himself.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Reno Raines
Upvote 0

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,818
✟328,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
God called what He created, "good" Not "perfect". Adam and Eve were created with the potential to become more like God through obedience, but only God is perfect in Himself.
Perfect means complete. God rested on the seventh day because his creation was complete. God is perfect and he made his creation perfect. The word perfection today has a connotation that is not part of the meaning of the word.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Reno Raines
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,594
12,122
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,181,104.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Perfect means complete. God rested on the seventh day because his creation was complete. God is perfect and he made his creation perfect. The word perfection today has a connotation that is not part of the meaning of the word.
Then you should probably use a different word or words that will not be misunderstood, since you are not writing to an audience speaking 1600's English
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,455
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
If I'm not mistaken, the idea that sin is transmitted sexually through the male sperm is a later Catholic theology. I know of no such belief within Orthodoxy.


(It's also a bit odd, IMO, even from a Catholic pov, since they also introduced the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary - the idea that she herself was conceived without sin - in order to prevent sin being transferred to Christ. We reject this doctrine as well.)

I realize that this is an Eastern Orthodox thread, so forgive me for providing an unorthodox response. I share this as additional food for thought. In my opinion, when Adam and Eve fell in the garden, they were changed from perfection to imperfection. I have been told that the word, "sin" is an archery expression and means "to have missed the mark", or to have erred. I see this fundamental error has infected the entire universe and is called entropy by physicists. Consequently all born from Adam and Eve, and all their descendants, passed on this imperfection to every generation.

The Gospel is the beginning of a new humanity, and a new creation. Evidently this imperfection called sin is passed on to the next generation by the sperm not the egg. Thus the virgin birth of Jesus enabled him to be born perfect, sinless. Since, as an adult, he accepted the sins of the world upon himself, he who knew no sin became sin so we might become the righteousness of God in him. But since those sins were not his, he was justified and raised from the dead. He became the first fruits from the dead. The hope of all who trust in Christ is that we, too, will be raised from the dead in perfection, sinless, as he is. But it is more than that. Since our lives are joined to his by the Holy Spirit, that Spirit within us will be our guarantee to never sin again. That means in the new heaven and new earth, perfection will remain forever. No more pain, no more tears, no more sin. This is the hope of all who have been born again.
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,455
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Hi
I'm having trouble with the concept of original sin. I'm very new to this so bear with me!
I'm interested in orthodoxy and would like to be clear on this concept.
Any can explain in laymans terms?
Welcome to CF and to TAW!

As you can see, it often happens that replies come from various sources, but hopefully you can sift through and figure out the answer to your question. If there's any confusion or doubt at all, feel free to ask further. :)

And again, welcome!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Reno Raines
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Wow thank you all for your replies!
There's so much for me to learn it's overwhelming but also exciting.
How can we rid ourselves of sin?
Are all the bad things that happen to us a result of this ancestral sin?
All sin starts with evil thoughts. They come to us much of the time. Don't attend to the thoughts, pray the Jesus Prayer and attend to the words of the prayer themselves. Beware of thoughts which are the root of all evil in ourselves and in the world.

We can't "rid ourselves" of sin. The grace of God can alone do this. If we pray for help and resist sinful thoughts and desires, and trust in God's will to save us, He will fight for us.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,560
20,079
41
Earth
✟1,466,215.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
If I'm not mistaken, the idea that sin is transmitted sexually through the male sperm is a later Catholic theology. I know of no such belief within Orthodoxy.


(It's also a bit odd, IMO, even from a Catholic pov, since they also introduced the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary - the idea that she herself was conceived without sin - in order to prevent sin being transferred to Christ. We reject this doctrine as well.)

it began in the Orthodox West by a guy named Ambrosiastor, was picked up by St Augustine, and then the post Schism West ran with it.
 
Upvote 0

Platina

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2017
660
673
40
Mechanicsburg
✟228,867.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
If I'm not mistaken, the idea that sin is transmitted sexually through the male sperm is a later Catholic theology. I know of no such belief within Orthodoxy.


(It's also a bit odd, IMO, even from a Catholic pov, since they also introduced the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary - the idea that she herself was conceived without sin - in order to prevent sin being transferred to Christ. We reject this doctrine as well.)
We do teach that the fallen mode of human nature is passed on by sexual reproduction, because that is the fallen mode of reproduction, which began only after the Fall. Christ received the unfallen mode of human nature precisely because He was conceived virginally. We don't get so specific as to say it's the sperm, but rather it's the whole means of reproduction.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: ArmyMatt
Upvote 0

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,818
✟328,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Then you should probably use a different word or words that will not be misunderstood, since you are not writing to an audience speaking 1600's English
It does not matter which word I use, everyone has their own understanding of what words mean, and further discussion will always be needed for clarification. Isn't this the point of the forum?
 
Upvote 0

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,818
✟328,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If I'm not mistaken, the idea that sin is transmitted sexually through the male sperm is a later Catholic theology. I know of no such belief within Orthodoxy.


(It's also a bit odd, IMO, even from a Catholic pov, since they also introduced the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary - the idea that she herself was conceived without sin - in order to prevent sin being transferred to Christ. We reject this doctrine as well.)
I am not a Catholic nor do I believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. This is my own opinion, and declared it was unorthodox.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,455
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I am not a Catholic nor do I believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. This is my own opinion, and declared it was unorthodox.
Forgive me ... my intent is not to argue with you. Just seeking the nuances, since as you said that is the point of discussion? Especially for the sake of the OP, who specifically asked to tease out the differences. I think that's what we are all seeking to do.

I have been taught in various (Protestant) denominations that sin is physically transmitted via sperm, which was supposedly the reason why Christ had no sinful nature. I just think we would say it a bit differently. As @Platina noted, we do employ a fallen means of reproduction, in a fallen world. So perhaps the details don't actually matter in the course of how we live our lives, or for the sake of our salvation.

But I know that we wouldn't say that Christ's human nature is unfallen because the Virgin Mary's was unfallen from her conception, as Catholics would argue. As to sexual transmission of fallenness, I'm less sure of who teaches what, but I'm very inclined to trust @ArmyMatt above for expounding the history and Orthodox beliefs.

I'm just discussing, along with everyone, hoping to learn more myself, and addressing for the sake of the OP. Forgive me please if I offended you in any way by clarifying our take on your post.
 
Upvote 0