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Origin of God's Morality.

Archaeopteryx

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There! Now I can. Now the question becomes, "Are unicorns real?" There's a Truthful answer for that. No, unicorns aren't real.
But you believe they are real because you've chosen to believe they are? Or haven't you? You can't say that you can choose to believe they are real while also maintaining that they aren't real. You seem to be proving my point... You can't manufacture a sincere belief in unicorns at will. At best, you can make-believe. Is that how you see religious belief, as make-believe?
 
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Root of Jesse

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But you believe they are real because you've chosen to believe they are? Or haven't you? You can't say that you can choose to believe they are real while also maintaining that they aren't real. You seem to be proving my point... You can't manufacture a sincere belief in unicorns at will. At best, you can make-believe. Is that how you see religious belief, as make-believe?
All I can really say is that I've never seen a live one. Only paintings and pictures. All I can say is that there are pictures of unicorns. I know it's a unicorn, why? Because of its characteristics.
I definitely do not see religious belief as fairy tale or make believe. I believe Christianity to be true because under pressure, under threat of death, people refused to give up their faith. We have 2000 years of proof, real deeds of real people in the name of Jesus. Some, of course, did deeds in His name that were not, to say the least, very Christian. We know the faith isn't fairy tale. We have the catacombs, we have the physical proof, and we have belief. That belief is in the real, not in make-believe.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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All I can really say is that I've never seen a live one. Only paintings and pictures. All I can say is that there are pictures of unicorns. I know it's a unicorn, why? Because of its characteristics.
So you understand then why I cannot simply manufacture a sincere belief in the Christian God at will?
I definitely do not see religious belief as fairy tale or make believe. I believe Christianity to be true because under pressure, under threat of death, people refused to give up their faith. We have 2000 years of proof, real deeds of real people in the name of Jesus. Some, of course, did deeds in His name that were not, to say the least, very Christian. We know the faith isn't fairy tale. We have the catacombs, we have the physical proof, and we have belief. That belief is in the real, not in make-believe.
The same would apply to other religions also. Christianity is not special in that regard.
 
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Root of Jesse

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So you understand then why I cannot simply manufacture a sincere belief in the Christian God at will?
But you don't have to do anything. It's already laid out for you. But you do have a choice to disbelieve.
The same would apply to other religions also. Christianity is not special in that regard.
Well, in no other religion does any human claim to be God, except Christianity. So then the question becomes "is he God, or is he a liar, or maybe a lunatic?" His rational action disprove the latter. Some episodes in the gospel disprove the middle one, to many.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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But you don't have to do anything. It's already laid out for you. But you do have a choice to disbelieve.

His point is that you cannot compel yourself to believe in something if you aren't actually convinced. Can you disbelieve in the existence of Australia if you simply try hard enough? Do you believe that atheists are doing this?

Well, in no other religion does any human claim to be God, except Christianity.

Wow, my mind is blown. So apparently many of the emperors throughout history are actually fictional.

Also, let's grant this completely false assertion. What does that actually prove about Christianity?

So then the question becomes "is he God, or is he a liar, or maybe a lunatic?" His rational action disprove the latter. Some episodes in the gospel disprove the middle one, to many.

False trichotomy.

Lord, liar, lunatic, or legend.

Because, you know, Mark was the first gospel, and its last dozen verses depicting the resurrection are a forgery that was added later. Then in the synoptic gospels more material was added despite no new actual discoveries being made about Jesus. And finally in John there is all kinds of new stuff. Legends grow, facts decay. The gospels grew.
 
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Root of Jesse

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His point is that you cannot compel yourself to believe in something if you aren't actually convinced. Can you disbelieve in the existence of Australia if you simply try hard enough? Do you believe that atheists are doing this?



Wow, my mind is blown. So apparently many of the emperors throughout history are actually fictional.
Emperors are not usually heads of any religion.
Also, let's grant this completely false assertion. What does that actually prove about Christianity?
Therefore, not a false assertion at all. Jesus claimed to be God, proved it, and his followers were so inspired, they spread the word. One passage from Acts is pretty telling here...The Sanhedrin was trying to figure out how to suppress the Christians. One of their wise elders stood up and said "If this is from God, nothing can stop it, if not from God, it will fail". That's a paraphrase.

False trichotomy.

Lord, liar, lunatic, or legend.
Whatever, but only one is true...the first one.
Because, you know, Mark was the first gospel, and its last dozen verses depicting the resurrection are a forgery that was added later. Then in the synoptic gospels more material was added despite no new actual discoveries being made about Jesus. And finally in John there is all kinds of new stuff. Legends grow, facts decay. The gospels grew.
Mark was not the first gospel. False saying...The gospels didn't grow. They was written later, to different audiences for different reasons. Just because someone is a legend, or something, doesn't mean it, or they, didn't exist, or didn't do what was said of them. Please quote the forgery.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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But you don't have to do anything. It's already laid out for you. But you do have a choice to disbelieve.
If by "laid out" you mean that you have already established that the Christian God exists, then no, it hasn't already been laid out. What you are asking me to do is to feign belief.
Well, in no other religion does any human claim to be God, except Christianity.
Even if that were true (it's not), I don't see why it's significant.
So then the question becomes "is he God, or is he a liar, or maybe a lunatic?" His rational action disprove the latter. Some episodes in the gospel disprove the middle one, to many.
Which episodes?
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Emperors are not usually heads of any religion.

What is a religion if not worship of a God? Worship of emperors was mandatory. Here's a depiction of a Jewish king bowing down before an emperor, touching his head to the ground:

Possibly%2BJehu%2C%2Bor%2BJehu's%2Bambassador%2C%2Bbowing%2Bbefore%2BShalmaneser%2BIII%2Bin%2B841%2BBCE%2C%2Bon%2Bthe%2BBlack%2BObelisk%2Bof%2BShalmaneser%2BIII%2Bmade%2Bin%2B825%2BBC.jpg


In exchange for this display, along with paying tribute to the emperor in the form of goods, he was allowed to live.

Many emperors truly believed they were God on earth. And you can bet that they demanded worship from all of their subjects, including the kings they conquered. Is that not religion?

Therefore, not a false assertion at all. Jesus claimed to be God, proved it, and his followers were so inspired, they spread the word.

Quite a bizarre claim. How did Jesus actually prove he was God? What is the checklist of things one must do to sufficiently prove that oneself is a God, or the God? Are you referring to the miracles he performed? Other Biblical characters performed miracles. Are you claiming that all characters except Jesus performed miracles through God, whereas Jesus performed miracles of his own power? How would you prove that, even if we were both present at a miracle? How would we even know whether Jesus had multiplied fish by his own power or through God's? Or are you referring to Jesus' greatest miracle of all: the resurrection? Because again, among the miracles performed by Jesus were resurrections of other people, and since we cannot know whether he did this himself or beckoned God to resurrect through him, we cannot know whether Jesus raised himself from the dead or if God raised him. In conclusion, this claim is not coherent even if we assume Christianity is true.

One passage from Acts is pretty telling here...The Sanhedrin was trying to figure out how to suppress the Christians. One of their wise elders stood up and said "If this is from God, nothing can stop it, if not from God, it will fail". That's a paraphrase.

I'm aware of that paraphrase. Do you believe in Islam or Buddhism? Because those are also ancient worldviews which have stood the test of time.

Whatever, but only one is true...the first one.

Even if that's the case, how can you actually know?

Mark was not the first gospel.

According to any scholar, Christian or otherwise, Mark was written first.

False saying...The gospels didn't grow. They was written later, to different audiences for different reasons.

Again, all scholars seem to disagree with you.

Just because someone is a legend, or something, doesn't mean it, or they, didn't exist, or didn't do what was said of them.

Right, I'm not saying Jesus didn't exist. I'm saying he is a legend, that is, his life and deeds are grossly exaggerated and/or fabricated.

Please quote the forgery.

Snapshots of biblegateway.com:

aab416c1ab.png




a2a097b610.png
 
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DogmaHunter

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How is it dodging the obvious? The relationship of Muslims to God is slave/Master. The relationship of Christians to God is children/Father.

Which is completely irrelevant to the point I raised in response to your empty threat.
 
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DogmaHunter

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It's called 'discernment'. I try not to question God's plan, for it is perfect. I do question it, all too often, but eventually, I let God be God.

That doesn't answer my question...

How can you know your interpretation is correct, if you cannot verify it?
 
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DogmaHunter

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Who do you think Santa Claus was modeled after?

You know very well what I meant.
But it's okay. Your dodging makes the point for me.

How is it wrong?

Because you can't simply "decide" right here, right now, to "sincerely believe" something you don't, like Santa or magical unicorns.

Because belief is a compulsion. It's not something you "choose" to do. You either find something convincing or you don't. Belief (or unbelief) is just a compulsory result of that, not a choice.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Now the question becomes, "Are unicorns real?" There's a Truthful answer for that. No, unicorns aren't real.

Can you simply "choose" to believe that they are real?

Do you even understand the question?
 
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DogmaHunter

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I believe Christianity to be true because under pressure, under threat of death, people refused to give up their faith.

If that is your reasoning, you must be very impressed with the truth of Islam, considering ISIS combattants.

We have 2000 years of proof, real deeds of real people in the name of Jesus.

Same as any other religion.

Some, of course, did deeds in His name that were not, to say the least, very Christian.

But you're ignoring those, I bet?
Only the deeds that are to your pleasing are evidence of your religion, I bet?

We know the faith isn't fairy tale.

Knowledge is demonstrable.
 
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bhsmte

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Tell me what the truth is, to you, and maybe we can talk.

Show me objective evidence that is verifiable, that points in one direction and i will accept something as true.

If all you have are stories and no evidence, i wont accept that as a verifiable truth. Certainly, you are free to accept stories as truth based on faith, knock yourself out.
 
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I believe Christianity to be true because under pressure, under threat of death, people refused to give up their faith.

There is this thing called Catholic tradition. That's putting it nicely - what we should really call it is Catholic invention.

See, the Gospel of John was written by - yep, you guessed it - John Doe. We don't know who wrote it or any of the gospels. If you actually read them you will see that they are anonymous; there is no actual claim being made of authorship anywhere. There is also no historical evidence to show who wrote them so what we have is Catholic tradition invention stepping in to fill in the blank. To be fair, I suppose it could be said that these documents needed names for reference, and maybe these names sounded better than simply calling them "1, 2, 3, and 4" but the reality is that giving them such numerical names would've been better in the sense of not deceiving the masses.

And the confusion doesn't stop there. Paul wrote some epistles, but not all of the ones credited to him are actually his works. Yes, some of the letters leading with "Paul, called to be an apostle..." were not written by Paul. It was a different world back then. No copyright laws, no printing press, no publishing houses, rampant illiteracy, etc. It was considered common practice and not in any way dishonest to attach the name of a prominent person to your work if you wanted to get it out there. And speaking of prominence, that's pretty much all Paul really had. There was no divine sign from heaven declaring him as a prophet. His greatest miracles were things like not being bitten by snakes, escaping in a basket, or surviving brain trauma. He has nothing more than the claim that he saw (or heard?) Jesus, nothing more than the claim that he was blind for a weekend. Couldn't Richard Dawkins do the same? With as much as he's invested against the church, and with his level of prominence, he could reverse course, claim divine revelation, and he would be no different than Paul. Paul was a prominent person who hated the church, then changed course, and since the church was desperate for any help they could get they were thrilled to have him. Even if we assume the anonymous gospels are true, there's no actual reason to believe that Paul was a prophet at all. All we have is a few of his works combined with other works which are polite forgeries borrowing his name, none of which were even addressed to us in the 21st century but rather to a specific audience for specific reasons which do not even apply anymore, and to top it off, it was narrowly decided hundreds of years later by a completely different culture whether these documents which had been copied and copied and copied many times over would even be included in the canon or not.

Here's the best way to look at it. As an outsider to the Jehovah's Witnesses, you might cite the fact that Charles Taze Russel was not competent in the language that he needed to know in order to produce the translations that he brought about. Yet you believe that an uneducated, illiterate Jewish fisherman by the name of Simon, whom Jesus referred to as Peter, drafted epistles in the Greek language.

Bizarre, to say the least. To be charitable to your position, we could say that Peter dictated his letters in Hebrew to someone who knew how to write Greek, but to my knowledge that's not really what the traditions inventions hold.

Now, what does this have to do with martyrdom?

See, the martyrs are another of these Catholic traditions inventions. You cannot show me as historical fact that any "eyewitness" apostle was martyred except Peter, but we don't actually know the line of questioning involved in Peter's martyr. You just help yourself to the assumption that it went like this:

Roman guy: Deny Christ.
Peter: No.
Roman guy: But I'll torture you if you don't.
Peter: I'm still not gonna.
(Several hours later)
Roman guy: This is it. I'm tired of whipping you. You're going on that cross if you don't deny Christ.
Peter: Crucify me upside down please.

But how do you know it didn't go like this:

Roman guy: You were preaching the gospel, weren't you?
Other Roman guy: If you deny it we'll "interrogate" you until you confess.
(Pro tip: "interrogate" means torture)
Peter: Yeah, I done did it.
The first Roman guy: So you know what happens now, right?
Peter: Yeah, I'll take the upside down version, please.

In either version of events, it might be said that Peter "died for his faith" or that his "faith was sealed in blood." This does not mean he was given the choice to deny Christ and go free. Nowhere is that claim ever even made except as a pulpit invention.

Now, maybe you do have people like Polycarp who willfully chose to die despite being given the option to deny Christ and go free. But he was not an "eyewitness" so he's not willfully dying for a lie.

The "Why die for a lie?" argument is itself a lie.
 
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Root of Jesse

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If by "laid out" you mean that you have already established that the Christian God exists, then no, it hasn't already been laid out. What you are asking me to do is to feign belief.
You said you were in religious studies, so it's been laid out for you. I'm not asking you to do anything, just to see what's in front of you.
Even if that were true (it's not), I don't see why it's significant.
Of course, you haven't named one that proves it's not true...
Which episodes?
The resurrection, for one. Oh, I know...it was a figment of 500 peoples' imagination...
 
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Root of Jesse

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What is a religion if not worship of a God? Worship of emperors was mandatory. Here's a depiction of a Jewish king bowing down before an emperor, touching his head to the ground:

Possibly%2BJehu%2C%2Bor%2BJehu's%2Bambassador%2C%2Bbowing%2Bbefore%2BShalmaneser%2BIII%2Bin%2B841%2BBCE%2C%2Bon%2Bthe%2BBlack%2BObelisk%2Bof%2BShalmaneser%2BIII%2Bmade%2Bin%2B825%2BBC.jpg


In exchange for this display, along with paying tribute to the emperor in the form of goods, he was allowed to live.

Many emperors truly believed they were God on earth. And you can bet that they demanded worship from all of their subjects, including the kings they conquered. Is that not religion?
Right, and after they died, they found out otherwise, and the populace moved on to the next one. And if they didn't like that one, they killed him.
Quite a bizarre claim. How did Jesus actually prove he was God? What is the checklist of things one must do to sufficiently prove that oneself is a God, or the God? Are you referring to the miracles he performed? Other Biblical characters performed miracles. Are you claiming that all characters except Jesus performed miracles through God, whereas Jesus performed miracles of his own power? How would you prove that, even if we were both present at a miracle? How would we even know whether Jesus had multiplied fish by his own power or through God's? Or are you referring to Jesus' greatest miracle of all: the resurrection? Because again, among the miracles performed by Jesus were resurrections of other people, and since we cannot know whether he did this himself or beckoned God to resurrect through him, we cannot know whether Jesus raised himself from the dead or if God raised him. In conclusion, this claim is not coherent even if we assume Christianity is true.
Certain miracles help prove it. His death and subsequent resurrection nail it down. Oh, I know, it's a fairy tale, to you.
http://www.everystudent.com/features/faith.html
I'm aware of that paraphrase. Do you believe in Islam or Buddhism? Because those are also ancient worldviews which have stood the test of time.
Islam started later than Christianity, and fractured right away. Their leader, Mohammed didn't claim to be God.
Buddha didn't claim to be God either.
Even if that's the case, how can you actually know?
Process of elimination.
According to any scholar, Christian or otherwise, Mark was written first.
Quite untrue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustinian_hypothesis
Again, all scholars seem to disagree with you.
Not true.
Right, I'm not saying Jesus didn't exist. I'm saying he is a legend, that is, his life and deeds are grossly exaggerated and/or fabricated.
Are you known for your opinion?
Snapshots of biblegateway.com:

aab416c1ab.png




a2a097b610.png
Actually, it's not a forgery. Early citations of it by the Fathers indicate that it was composed by the second century, although vocabulary and style indicate that it was written by someone other than Mark. It is a general resume of the material concerning the appearances of the risen Jesus, reflecting, in particular, traditions found in Lk 24 and Jn 20. This also suggests that Mark didn't come first...It was declared canonical at the Council of Trent. Not a forgery, not that it had false doctrine or information in it, it was an addition, and known not to have been written by Mark, and paralells Luke 24 and John 20. Shrug.
 
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