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You seem to think I was responding to you on this, are you also Tetra then?I think you're using this passage for a different purpose than it was intended. Isaiah was reassuring Israel about his commitment to his covenant people. The whole verse is
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, “My purpose shall stand,
and I will fulfill my intention,”
Pretty clearly the reference to ancient times is the beginning of the covenant, and God is saying that he will fulfill it. This is not a philosophical statement about the knowability of the future, but rather of the constancy of God's purpose.
Surely it's clear what I meant. I'm not sure that open theism claims God has enumerated every possible chain of events, but rather that he can always find a way to accomplish his purposes.
I already noted that open theism seems to assume that God is within time, and from a scientific point of view, it seems most likely that he's outside of time. Basically the problem is that time is an attribute of the universe. (It's one dimension of a multidimensional space that doesn't appear to exist "before" the big bang.) If God created the universe, he must exist outside it (though of course he is also within it). It's hard for me to see how someone outside the universe could be temporal.
It's just that Scripture describes God as acting as an agent within time.
The problem is that we don't have any idea what it is like to exist outside the universe. Although our time seems to be part of the universe, perhaps there is still some analog of time outside it. Or perhaps Calvinism is true, and the whole way the Bible speaks of God interacting with us is accommodation.
But the Bible says that God answers our prayer even before we ask it. If He knows what we think before we think it, then no doubt He also knows what we are going to do before we do it.No. I can know every possible move left in a chess game, that doesn't mean I know which move you're going to make. I only know the move you made once you chose to make it.
What people are claiming here is that God knows the exact move you make prior to it even occurring, which is different than knowing possible outcomes.
Why does having an omniscient God determine your choices. Or better put why do you think an omniscient God coerces you to act?
Is it possible an omniscient God and for people to still make choices according to their nature?
Simply because someone has knowledge of what you choose wouldn't necessitate it wasn't freely chosen.And I'm not saying God coerces your actions. That's not the direction I'm going at all.
The direction I'm going is that you can either have free will, or you can have a God that knows with absolute certainty what your actions will be. But you can't have both.
This is nothing more than people putting their own spin and sin into their interpretation of God’s word. 2 Timothy 3:13.I was just reading the Statement of Faith and under Unorthodox Christian Theology I read
"Open Theism" or maybe open theology.
Could anyone here tell me what it is and is there scripture for this?
You are stretching the text. He chose us in Him before the foundations of the earth. Us chosen apart from time . The text does not support a generic corporate choosing but individual.The passage is Eph 1:4 "just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love."
As noted, I think the issue here is more Calvinism than open theism. The usual non-Calvinist understanding is that God intended from the beginning to send Christ and through him to call a people. This need not indicate predestination of individuals.
The text actually says foreknowledge and Predetermined. And words truly having meanings which can't be massaged into meaning what we want them to mean.Acts 2:23 and this passage don't talk about God having determined the specifics from the beginning. Obviously God intended Christ to be crucified and resurrected, in those circumstances. But this passage lacks what Eph says, from the beginning. It's perfectly plausible to say, with Eph, that God intended from the beginning to send Christ, but that the specific way he was to die depending upon the historical situation.
No Ephesians is clearly saying "us" in Him. Us as in those in Christ were chosen so from before the foundations of the earth. One would have to have a predetermined concept this chapter is not speaking of individuals.You can't take a phrase from Ephesians and tack it onto a passage from Acts. I think Ephesians does in fact say that God intended to send Christ from the beginning, and God intended to call a people through him. That doesn't establish detailed predetermination.
Responding according to His Will and Purpose. Shall we review God's will and Purpose in Scriptures? And then compare how many times the will and intentions of mankind are mentioned?This isn't post-modernism. It's taking seriously the many Biblical passages about God responding to people.
If you are in your backyard and a drone sees you swimming in a pool, did it just coerce you into swimming?Because free will means you had choice. Presented with options A and B, it could be A or it could be B. Both options are possible.
If God knows with 100% certainty beforehand that it WILL be A, then B is impossible. The absolute certainty has rendered it impossible. So there is no choice in the matter.
I was just reading the Statement of Faith and under Unorthodox Christian Theology I read
"Open Theism" or maybe open theology.
Could anyone here tell me what it is and is there scripture for this?
God is limited to human logic?Because God's knowledge can only work within the parameters of logic. God cannot know things which do not exist, just as He doesn't know how high superman can fly, He doesn't know the specifics of the future.
He foreknew all the events and people.Yes in Acts 2:23, He knew beforehand He would send Christ. Who is denying that??
And I'm not saying God coerces your actions. That's not the direction I'm going at all.
The direction I'm going is that you can either have free will, or you can have a God that knows with absolute certainty what your actions will be. But you can't have both.
If you are in your backyard and a drone sees you swimming in a pool, did it just coerce you into swimming?
DZ,
To me, that sounds like you have put God into a box of human making. God is absolutely sovereign (except he did not create evil) and in his absolute sovereign, He has provided human beings with the power of alternate choice (free will).
It's not an either/or, i.e. free will or God's absolute foreknowledge of what WILL take place. It is both/and.
God in his sovereignty, omnipotence, omniscience and all of his other attributes provided human beings with genuine choice, starting with Adam and Eve in the Garden and the choice of which tree they will eat from.
From God's perspective, he provides genuine human free will, within the parameters of his sovereignty.
Oz
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