Open Theism

[GodsGrace101]

I was just reading the Statement of Faith and under Unorthodox Christian Theology I read
"Open Theism" or maybe open theology.

Could anyone here tell me what it is and is there scripture for this?

 

[Hieronymus]

Some links and a quote of what you're addressing would be helpful.
Can't seem to find what you mean.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Some links and a quote of what you're addressing would be helpful.
Can't seem to find what you mean.

Thanks for answering H.

If you look way up at the upper right hand corner of the computer screen, it has the Statement of Faith.

At the bottom of the statement, it says:

Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):

• Annihilationism
• Full Preterism
• Open Theism
• Universalism

I know what the others are but I only have a vague idea of Open Theism. I think these people believe that God made the universe and made us and then just abandoned us to ourselves.

I'm not sure and I hate using google to learn about religious concepts. Could you imagine using google to learn about Christianity!

I just think it would be interesting to know...

 

[HTacianas]

I was just reading the Statement of Faith and under Unorthodox Christian Theology I read
"Open Theism" or maybe open theology.

Could anyone here tell me what it is and is there scripture for this?

It's the belief that not all things are predetermined and that the future can be changed. It's controversial because many of its adherents claim that God does not know the future. But like anything else, no one has an absolute definition for it.

 

[Hieronymus]

Thanks for answering H.

If you look way up at the upper right hand corner of the computer screen, it has the Statement of Faith.

At the bottom of the statement, it says:

Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):

• Annihilationism
• Full Preterism
• Open Theism
• Universalism

I know what the others are but I only have a vague idea of Open Theism. I think these people believe that God made the universe and made us and then just abandoned us to ourselves.

Hmmm... Well, it does seem that way though, doesn't it?
Left to our own devices, unless you find Him.
His last public act was 2000 years ago.

I'm not sure and I hate using google to learn about religious concepts. Could you imagine using google to learn about Christianity!

I've learned just about everything regarding religion in general and Christianity in particular via the internet.
I bet Wikipedia even has a definition of Open Theism, which is probably correct (because it's not politically charged / charging).

I just think it would be interesting to know...

Okay. Open new tab, enter "open theism" in the search bar:
1st hit is Wikipedia.
Open theism - Wikipedia

 

[GodsGrace101]

It's the belief that not all things are predetermined and that the future can be changed. It's controversial because many of its adherents claim that God does not know the future. But like anything else, no one has an absolute definition for it.

Interesting. This would answer the problem with prayer. Why do we pray? Does it really change anything? Did God foreknow we were going to pray and thus knew the outcome?

If God only knows what's happening at the moment, it would make more sense that when we pray we may get a YES to that prayer....

Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hmmm... Well, it does seem that way though, doesn't it?
Left to our own devices, unless you find Him.
His last public act was 2000 years ago.
I've learned just about everything regarding religion in general and Christianity in particular via the internet.
I bet Wikipedia even has a definition of Open Theism, which is probably correct (because it's not politically charged / charging).
Okay. Open new tab, enter "open theism" in the search bar:
1st hit is Wikipedia.
Open theism - Wikipedia

Oh my. I believe some of open theism...and yet it's listed under unorthodox --- which just means what is accepted by the majority, I mean NOT accepted by the majority.

I think I know enough...it sounds complicated...

 

[GodsGrace101]

It's the belief that not all things are predetermined and that the future can be changed. It's controversial because many of its adherents claim that God does not know the future. But like anything else, no one has an absolute definition for it.

Maybe God doesn't know the future????
I know a priest that wonders why God made us at all if He knew what was going to happen...This would answer that too.

I've never pondered why God MUST know the future to be God....

So much has to wait till we see Him !

 

[Hieronymus]

Maybe God doesn't know the future????

I look at it metaphorically as God being the Unbeatable Chess Master.
He knows what moves his opponent / challenger can make, He knows what counter moves He has to make.
He knows He will win.
So that way He does predestine his Victory and his Strategy and the strategy of the opponent.
So that doesn't mean that He's just running a pre programmed sequence of events, but it does mean He has foreknowledge of the important steps / moves.
But that's only a metaphor of little old me, of course.

I know a priest that wonders why God made us at all if He knew what was going to happen...This would answer that too.

Also, when it's ultimately about a loving relationship between Him and his creatures, i don't think it can be programmed love or robot love. That's not real love i.m.o.
But what do i know..

I've never pondered why God MUST know the future to be God....

It's complicated..
The philosophy is like when God exists beyond / outside time (because time seems to be an aspect of the creation, our common reality here and now), He can see past, present and future too, from his perspective.

So much has to wait till we see Him !

Yes indeed...
So many questions..
One day, i'm sure we will know and understand.

 

[tdidymas]

I was just reading the Statement of Faith and under Unorthodox Christian Theology I read
"Open Theism" or maybe open theology.

Could anyone here tell me what it is and is there scripture for this?

The "why pray" argument is irrelevant, since prayer is for our benefit, not God's. God doesn't need anything, He gives "all things pertaining to life and godliness" (2 Pet. 1)

If you want detail on Open Theism, there is an excellent book on it:
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_...=stripbooks&field-keywords=god's+lesser+glory

Essentially, the belief that:
God is not omniscient - he is so wise that he has all possible outcomes figured out, but he doesn't actually know what you're going to do until you do it.
Man-centered salvation, so it is completely up to you independent of God, that you decide to become a Christian, and afterward can decide to not be one. It's all based on your reasoning.
They do not subscribe to the Total Depravity (spiritually) doctrine. They claim they are being "honest Arminians."

An Open Theist may or may not deny what I say about it here. IMO, it is nothing other than Pelagianism (which was condemned by council in the 4th century).
TD

 

[GodsGrace101]

I look at it metaphorically as God being the Unbeatable Chess Master.
He knows what moves his opponent / challenger can make, He knows what counter moves He has to make.
He knows He will win.
So that way He does predestine his Victory and his Strategy and the strategy of the opponent.
So that doesn't mean that He's just running a pre programmed sequence of events, but it does mean He has foreknowledge of the important steps / moves.
But that's only a metaphor of little old me, of course.Also, when it's ultimately about a loving relationship between Him and his creatures, i don't think it can be programmed love or robot love. That's not real love i.m.o.
But what do i know..It's complicated..
The philosophy is like when God exists beyond / outside time (because time seems to be an aspect of the creation, our common reality here and now), He can see past, present and future too, from his perspective.
Yes indeed...
So many questions..
One day, i'm sure we will know and understand.

I agree with all you've said.
I use the football analogy.
Every player chooses what he will do at each moment...
However God works it so that the game will end how He wants it to.

I also believe in libertarian free will.

And, yes, time is created,,,and the creator cannot be part of what He created.

See you around.

 

[hedrick]

Man-centered salvation, so it is completely up to you independent of God, that you decide to become a Christian, and afterward can decide to not be one. It's all based on your reasoning.

I don't think open theism implies this, unless Arminianism does. Open theism isn't deism. It doesn't imply that God starts the world and then sits back and watches. God is still active with us, and acts graciously. However he doesn't know the way everything will work out in detail.

Here's part of the definition from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy: "Though omniscient, God does not know what we will freely do in the future. Though omnipotent, He has chosen to invite us to freely collaborate with Him in governing and developing His creation, thereby also allowing us the freedom to thwart His hopes for us. God desires that each of us freely enter into a loving and dynamic personal relationship with Him, and He has therefore left it open to us to choose for or against His will."

In terms of the Calvinism - Pelagianism spectrum, this is pretty much the same position taken by classic Arminianism. God has taken the initiative, which is grace. One of the descriptions above was of deism, not open theism. It said that God created the universe and then left us alone. That's *not* open theism. Open theists believe that God works with us. But he also depends upon our response. This is Arminianism.

Open theism takes seriously the Biblical description of how God acts. The Bible speaks of God as trying things and changing his mind. To get standard Christian theology you have to dismiss the way the Bible talks of God.

Personally, I haven't decided. A lot depends upon whether God is outside time. From a scientific point of view that seems the most likely. If so, then I think he would see all of history "at the same time." That makes open theism hard. However Scripture seems pretty clearly to imply open theism.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I was just reading the Statement of Faith and under Unorthodox Christian Theology I read
"Open Theism" or maybe open theology.

Could anyone here tell me what it is and is there scripture for this?

The belief that God has decided to not be all knowing, as he decided to limit Himself to just knowing all that can be known as up to right now, but is blind to the future, as he experiences it now as we do in time.

 

[Bobber]

Maybe God doesn't know the future????
I know a priest that wonders why God made us at all if He knew what was going to happen...This would answer that too.

I've never pondered why God MUST know the future to be God....

So much has to wait till we see Him !

Perhaps. There most certainly won't be a great change of mind of what many believe for the reason that they've locked themselves into a position of just what it'd mean to be God. God CANNOT have ANY limitations and to them NOT knowing the future would be one. I do believe God knows the future but how he does I have a different approach to how it's to be thought of.

Well people need to stop and ask the following though.....is it a limitation not to be in a place that's not a reality? For instance is God right now in the universe of Star Wars, or Lord of the Rings? Of course not. Why? Because those supposed "places" ARE not a reality. Would one still claim, "No God is there he's EVERYWHERE! You can't limit him!" Wouldn't that be foolish to suggest such when it comes to fictional places?

I think it's fair to say God is not in places that do not exist....or are fictional. Is our future a reality BEFORE it happens? How could it be? Can one go to the future as in RIGHT NOW there's a future that exists? Even in the way that science says one in theory could go to the future which would be going up to near the speed of light that still doesn't mean you're going to a place which simultaneously exists in what we call the present. Time still has to unfold.

I somewhat hold to a belief that there's a way that God doesn't know the future BUT it could as well rightly be argued that he does know the future and always (in a way of speaking) did. I know that come across as a glaring contradiction but it has to do with vantage points and places of observance. Even when it would come to two groups....one going up to near the speed of light as compared to what an earthly group observes they're seeing two different things and it can be argued both are correct.

I know that sounds like gibberish but no....not really. It's just that there's a few other things one must understand but I've never seen anyone ever really wanting to talk about it. Their either locked into strict determination of God doing such or the idea of past/present/future all simultaneously existing. I somewhat hold to a position that there's something else people have failed to consider which in my mind does answer the question.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Perhaps. There most certainly won't be a great change of mind of what many believe for the reason that they've locked themselves into a position of just what it'd mean to be God. God CANNOT have ANY limitations and to them NOT knowing the future would be one. I do believe God knows the future but how he does I have a different approach to how it's to be thought of.

Well people need to stop and ask the following though.....is it a limitation not to be in a place that's not a reality? For instance is God right now in the universe of Star Wars, or Lord of the Rings? Of course not. Why? Because those supposed "places" ARE not a reality. Would one still claim, "No God is there he's EVERYWHERE! You can't limit him!" Wouldn't that be foolish to suggest such when it comes to fictional places?

I think it's fair to say God is not in places that do not exist....or are fictional. Is our future a reality BEFORE it happens? How could it be? Can one go to the future as in RIGHT NOW there's a future that exists? Even in the way that science says one in theory could go to the future which would be going up to near the speed of light that still doesn't mean you're going to a place which simultaneously exists in what we call the present. Time still has to unfold.

I somewhat hold to a belief that there's a way that God doesn't know the future BUT it could as well rightly be argued that he does know the future and always (in a way of speaking) did. I know that come across as a glaring contradiction but it has to do with vantage points and places of observance. Even when it would come to two groups....one going up to near the speed of light as compared to what an earthly group observes they're seeing two different things and it can be argued both are correct.

I know that sounds like gibberish but no....not really. It's just that there's a few other things one must understand but I've never seen anyone ever really wanting to talk about it. Their either locked into strict determination of God doing such or the idea of past/present/future all simultaneously existing. I somewhat hold to a position that there's something else people have failed to consider which in my mind does answer the question.

I like how CS lewis explained this, as he saw God as living in the Eternal Now, as he knows all things at the same time as Hees all things from the perspective of right now.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The "why pray" argument is irrelevant, since prayer is for our benefit, not God's. God doesn't need anything, He gives "all things pertaining to life and godliness" (2 Pet. 1)

If you want detail on Open Theism, there is an excellent book on it:
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=stripbooks&field-keywords=god's+lesser+glory

Essentially, the belief that:
God is not omniscient - he is so wise that he has all possible outcomes figured out, but he doesn't actually know what you're going to do until you do it.
Man-centered salvation, so it is completely up to you independent of God, that you decide to become a Christian, and afterward can decide to not be one. It's all based on your reasoning.
They do not subscribe to the Total Depravity (spiritually) doctrine. They claim they are being "honest Arminians."

An Open Theist may or may not deny what I say about it here. IMO, it is nothing other than Pelagianism (which was condemned by council in the 4th century).
TD

I know prayer is more for us. I know that we're supposed to pray within God's will. However, we're taught that sometimes God will change His mind about something or other and maybe even heal someone. We do attribute some healing to God (although all good things come from God).

I don't know why it's irrelevant however. IF God doesn't know the future, then He conceivably could answer a prayer. I haven't thought this through well.

I did order the book you recommended.

I do believe in man-centered salvation. Don't know if centered is the right term...it's a cooperation. I don't think I'm an arminian but I know I have no calvinist tendencies except that I do believe in obedience to God like they do.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The belief that God has decided to not be all knowing, as he decided to limit Himself to just knowing all that can be known as up to right now, but is blind to the future, as he experiences it now as we do in time.

If God created time and thus is outside of time and can "look" at it...can He also limit His powers and not see the future? This doesn't sound right although we just can't know. We only know what God has revealed to us.

 

[hedrick]

If you want detail on Open Theism, there is an excellent book on it:
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=stripbooks&field-keywords=god's+lesser+glory

It's generally not a good idea to learn about something from an opponent. A better source would be

https://www.amazon.com/Openness-God...F8&qid=1545510452&sr=1-8&keywords=open+theism

Note that this book distinguishes between open theism and process theology. Not everyone is clear on this. Some arguments against open theism really only apply to process theology. The difference is that in open theism God knows and can do anything that it is logically possible to know and do. He creates and is responsible for the world. In process theology God's activity is not so determinative. He acts in what one might call a persuasive manner.

 

[YeshuaFan]

If God created time and thus is outside of time and can "look" at it...can He also limit His powers and not see the future? This doesn't sound right although we just can't know. We only know what God has revealed to us.

For God to be really God, He has to be all knowing, for if He ever has to learn anything new, then he ceases to be God!

 

[YeshuaFan]

It's generally not a good idea to learn about something from an opponent. A better source would be

https://www.amazon.com/Openness-God...F8&qid=1545510452&sr=1-8&keywords=open+theism

Note that this book distinguishes between open theism and process theology. Not everyone is clear on this. Some arguments against open theism really only apply to process theology. The difference is that in open theism God knows and can do anything that it is logically possible to know and do. He creates and is responsible for the world. In process theology God's activity is not so determinative. He acts in what one might call a persuasive manner.

God is eternal, and has eternal divine attributes, so Him knowing all things would be very consistent with his nature!