Open Theism

[tdidymas]

I think you're using this passage for a different purpose than it was intended. Isaiah was reassuring Israel about his commitment to his covenant people. The whole verse is

declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, “My purpose shall stand,
and I will fulfill my intention,”​

Pretty clearly the reference to ancient times is the beginning of the covenant, and God is saying that he will fulfill it. This is not a philosophical statement about the knowability of the future, but rather of the constancy of God's purpose.


Surely it's clear what I meant. I'm not sure that open theism claims God has enumerated every possible chain of events, but rather that he can always find a way to accomplish his purposes.

I already noted that open theism seems to assume that God is within time, and from a scientific point of view, it seems most likely that he's outside of time. Basically the problem is that time is an attribute of the universe. (It's one dimension of a multidimensional space that doesn't appear to exist "before" the big bang.) If God created the universe, he must exist outside it (though of course he is also within it). It's hard for me to see how someone outside the universe could be temporal.

It's just that Scripture describes God as acting as an agent within time.

The problem is that we don't have any idea what it is like to exist outside the universe. Although our time seems to be part of the universe, perhaps there is still some analog of time outside it. Or perhaps Calvinism is true, and the whole way the Bible speaks of God interacting with us is accommodation.

You seem to think I was responding to you on this, are you also Tetra then?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

No. I can know every possible move left in a chess game, that doesn't mean I know which move you're going to make. I only know the move you made once you chose to make it.

What people are claiming here is that God knows the exact move you make prior to it even occurring, which is different than knowing possible outcomes.

But the Bible says that God answers our prayer even before we ask it. If He knows what we think before we think it, then no doubt He also knows what we are going to do before we do it.

I still say that the open theist thinks that God is not so near to us as to know us. The image of God appears more like a human being who only observes another.
TD

 

[DZoolander]

Why does having an omniscient God determine your choices. Or better put why do you think an omniscient God coerces you to act?

Is it possible an omniscient God and for people to still make choices according to their nature?

Because free will means you had choice. Presented with options A and B, it could be A or it could be B. Both options are possible.

If God knows with 100% certainty beforehand that it WILL be A, then B is impossible. The absolute certainty has rendered it impossible. So there is no choice in the matter.

 

[DZoolander]

And I'm not saying God coerces your actions. That's not the direction I'm going at all.

The direction I'm going is that you can either have free will, or you can have a God that knows with absolute certainty what your actions will be. But you can't have both.

 

[Tetra]

And I'm not saying God coerces your actions. That's not the direction I'm going at all.

The direction I'm going is that you can either have free will, or you can have a God that knows with absolute certainty what your actions will be. But you can't have both.

Simply because someone has knowledge of what you choose wouldn't necessitate it wasn't freely chosen.

Alternatively, God could simply know you so well that He knows what you would freely choose to do in any given situation.

I think you might be creating a false dichotomy here.

Personally, I would hold God doesn't know the exact details of the future simply because the future doesn't exist.

 

[DZoolander]

Everyone has their own take on things.

Mine is that absolute certainty on future events negates other possibilities - which means no choice exists when those events transpire.

 

[DZoolander]

Because once again - choice means “it could be this or it could be that. Both are possible”

 

[Tetra]

Because once again - choice means “it could be this or it could be that. Both are possible”

No, I don't think that's logical.

Just because I know you will choose door A, doesn't mean I made you choose door A.

 

[DZoolander]

You’re getting back to “made you do” stuff.

I’m not saying God compels or makes anyone do anything. Im saying that choice and absolute accurate foreknowledge are incompatible.

 

[Tetra]

You’re getting back to “made you do” stuff.

I’m not saying God compels or makes anyone do anything. Im saying that choice and absolute accurate foreknowledge are incompatible.

If they're incompatible than you are suggesting He "made you do" it. You can't have both.

 

[Damon46789]

I was just reading the Statement of Faith and under Unorthodox Christian Theology I read
"Open Theism" or maybe open theology.

Could anyone here tell me what it is and is there scripture for this?

This is nothing more than people putting their own spin and sin into their interpretation of God’s word. 2 Timothy 3:13.

 

[Tetra]

This is nothing more than people putting their own spin and sin into their interpretation of God’s word. 2 Timothy 3:13.

How?

 

[redleghunter]

The passage is Eph 1:4 "just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love."

As noted, I think the issue here is more Calvinism than open theism. The usual non-Calvinist understanding is that God intended from the beginning to send Christ and through him to call a people. This need not indicate predestination of individuals.

You are stretching the text. He chose us in Him before the foundations of the earth. Us chosen apart from time . The text does not support a generic corporate choosing but individual.

Confirmed later in Ephesians 1:

In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Acts 2:23 and this passage don't talk about God having determined the specifics from the beginning. Obviously God intended Christ to be crucified and resurrected, in those circumstances. But this passage lacks what Eph says, from the beginning. It's perfectly plausible to say, with Eph, that God intended from the beginning to send Christ, but that the specific way he was to die depending upon the historical situation.

The text actually says foreknowledge and Predetermined. And words truly having meanings which can't be massaged into meaning what we want them to mean.

Predetermined:
horizó: to mark off by boundaries, to determine
Original Word: ὁρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horizó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-id'-zo)
Definition: to mark off by boundaries, to determine
Usage: I separate, mark off by boundaries; I determine, appoint, designate.



3724 horízō (from horos, "boundary, limit") – properly, to set boundaries (limits) – literally, "determine horizons" (boundaries).

3724 /horízō ("designate limits, boundaries") refers to the Lord (literally) "horizoning" all the physical scenes of life before creation. This guarantees God works each in conjunction with His eternal purpose (providence, see 4286 /próthesis).

[The English term "horizon" ("horizoning") comes from 3724(horízō), "to set limits." 4309/proorízō ("pre-horizon, pre-determine") emphasizes God's eternality with its correlations, as operating in His perfect wisdom, absolute foreknowledge, etc.).]

2. to determine, appoint: with an accusative of the thing, ἡμέραν, Hebrews 4:7; καιρούς, Acts 17:26(numerous examples from Greek authors are given in Bleek, Hebrew-Br. 2:1, p. 538f); passive ὡρισμένος, 'determinate,' settled, Acts 2:23; τό ὡρισμένον, that which hath been determined,according to appointment, decree,Luke 22:22; with an accusative of person Acts 17:31 (ᾧ by attraction for ὅν (Winers Grammar, § 24, 1; Buttmann, § 143, 8)); passive with a predicate nominative, Romans 1:4 (for although Christ was the Son of God before his resurrection, yet he was openly appointed (A. V.declared) such among men by this transcendent and crowning event); ὁρίζω, to ordain, determine, appoint, Acts 10:42; followed by an infinitive Acts 11:29 (Sophoclesfrom 19 d. (i. e. Aegeus (539), viii., p. 8, Brunck edition)). (Compare: ἀφορίζω, ἀποδιορίζω, πρωρίζω.)


Foreknowledge:
prognósis: foreknowledge
Original Word: πρόγνωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prognósis
Phonetic Spelling: (prog'-no-sis)
Definition: foreknowledge
Usage: foreknowledge, previous determination.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4268 prógnōsis (from 4267 /proginṓskō, "foreknow") – properly, foreknowledge. 4268(prógnōsis) occurs twice in the NT, both times of "God's absolute foreknowledge." See 4267(proginōskō).

2. forethought, prearrangement(see προβλέπω): 1 Peter 1:2; Acts 2:23

Strongs 4267
proginóskó: to know beforehand
Original Word: προγινώσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proginóskó
Phonetic Spelling: (prog-in-oce'-ko)
Definition: to know beforehand
Usage: I know beforehand, foreknow.
HELPS Word-studies
4267 proginṓskō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 1097 /ginṓskō, "to know") – properly, foreknow; used in the NT of "God pre-knowing all choices – and doing so without pre-determining (requiring) them" (G. Archer).

Acts 4:28: to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Your Hand
cheir: the hand
Original Word: χείρ, χειρός, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: cheir
Phonetic Spelling: (khire)
Definition: the hand
Usage: a hand.

5495 xeír – properly, hand; (figuratively) the instrument a person uses to accomplish their purpose (intention, plan).

ἐμπεσεῖν εἰς χεῖρας Θεοῦ ζῶντος, Hebrews 10:31. δ. in determining and controlling the destinies of men: Acts 4:28; ταπεινοῦσθαι ὑπότήν κραταιάν χεῖρα τοῦ Θεοῦ, 1 Peter 5:6.

Purpose
boulé: counsel
Original Word: βουλή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: boulé
Phonetic Spelling: (boo-lay')
Definition: counsel
Usage: counsel, deliberate wisdom, decree.

1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.

This level of God's plan (1012/boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!

[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]

βουλή, βουλῆς, ἡ (βούλομαι), from Homer down; often in the Sept. for עֵצָה; counsel, purpose: Luke 23:51(where distinguished from ἡπρᾶξις); Acts 5:38; Acts 27:12 (seeτίθημι, 1 a.), 42; plural 1 Corinthians 4:5; ἡ βουλή τοῦ Θεοῦ, Acts 13:36; especially of the purpose of God respecting the salvation of men through Christ: Luke 7:30; Acts 2:23; Acts 4:28; (Hebrews 6:17); πᾶσαν τήνβουλήν τοῦ Θεοῦ all the contents of the divine plan, Acts 20:27; ἡβουλή τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ the counsel of his will, Ephesians 1:11.

Predestined
proorizó: to predetermine, foreordain
Original Word: προορίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proorizó
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-or-id'-zo)
Definition: to predetermine, foreordain
Usage: I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.

4309 proorízō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 3724 /horízō, "establish boundaries, limits") – properly, pre-horizon, pre-determine limits (boundaries) predestine.

[4309 (proorízō) occurs six times in the NT (eight in the writings of Paul). Since the root (3724 /horízō) already means "establish boundaries," the added prefix (pro, "before") makes 4309 (proorízō) "to pre-establish boundaries," i.e. before creation.]

προορίζω: 1 aorist προορισα; 1 aorist passive participle προορισθεντες; to predetermine, decide beforehand, Vulg. (except in Acts)praedestino (R. V. to foreordain): in the N. T. of God decreeing from eternity, followed by an accusative with the infinitive Acts 4:28; τί, with the addition of πρό τῶν αἰώνων 1 Corinthians 2:7; τινα, with a predicate acc, to foreordain, appoint beforehand,Romans 8:29f; τινα εἰς τί, one to obtain a thing. Ephesians 1:5; προορισθεντες namely, κληρωθῆναι, Ephesians 1:11. (Heliodorus and ecclesiastical writings. (Ignatius ad Eph. tit.))

You can't take a phrase from Ephesians and tack it onto a passage from Acts. I think Ephesians does in fact say that God intended to send Christ from the beginning, and God intended to call a people through him. That doesn't establish detailed predetermination.

No Ephesians is clearly saying "us" in Him. Us as in those in Christ were chosen so from before the foundations of the earth. One would have to have a predetermined concept this chapter is not speaking of individuals.

See Strongs 4309 above. The NT use is always from eternity.

This isn't post-modernism. It's taking seriously the many Biblical passages about God responding to people.

Responding according to His Will and Purpose. Shall we review God's will and Purpose in Scriptures? And then compare how many times the will and intentions of mankind are mentioned?

You keep mentioning there are passages supporting open theism but you present none. Maybe I missed it.

 

[redleghunter]

Because free will means you had choice. Presented with options A and B, it could be A or it could be B. Both options are possible.

If God knows with 100% certainty beforehand that it WILL be A, then B is impossible. The absolute certainty has rendered it impossible. So there is no choice in the matter.

If you are in your backyard and a drone sees you swimming in a pool, did it just coerce you into swimming?

 

[OzSpen]

I was just reading the Statement of Faith and under Unorthodox Christian Theology I read
"Open Theism" or maybe open theology.

Could anyone here tell me what it is and is there scripture for this?

GG101,

The father of Open Theology is regarded as the late Clark Pinnock (died 15 Aug 2010). Here is an online lecture by Pinnock, ‘Clark Pinnock on Open Theology (Pt. 1 of 7)’. Here’s an interview with Pinnock on the topic, ‘Does Prayer Change Things? Yes, if you’re an Open Theist’.

Who are the advocates of openness theology? Greg Boyd, Clark Pinnock, Richard Rice, and John Sanders are some of the prominent proponents. Greg Boyd has stated that God ‘does not know every detail about what will come to pass…The future is, to some degree at least, open ended and God knows it as such’ (Boyd 2000:8).

Open theism questions these fundamentals of orthodox theology:

• God’s omniscience (all knowledge);
• God’s immutability (unchanging);
• God’s eternity;
• God’s omnipresence;
• God’s unity;
• God’s omnipotence (all-powerful).

See the article, “An examination of open theism“.
Also see, “The doctrine of open theism“.

In my understanding, this doctrine is a serious threat to an orthodox view of the attributes of God. For an assessment, see, ‘The dangers of Open Theism’, by Tim Chaffey. Other assessments include:

• ‘Closing the door on open theism’;
• ‘What’s wrong with open theism?’

For another brief overview, see my article:Does God change his mind?
(I've taken this information from my brief article: What is open theism and what are the dangers?)

I've also addressed some of open theism issues in:

• Is God absolutely sovereign?
• God sovereign but not author of evil

In my view, it is false teaching that is countered by Scriptural teaching.

Oz

 

[redleghunter]

Because God's knowledge can only work within the parameters of logic. God cannot know things which do not exist, just as He doesn't know how high superman can fly, He doesn't know the specifics of the future.

God is limited to human logic?

Yes in Acts 2:23, He knew beforehand He would send Christ. Who is denying that??

He foreknew all the events and people.

 

[OzSpen]

And I'm not saying God coerces your actions. That's not the direction I'm going at all.

The direction I'm going is that you can either have free will, or you can have a God that knows with absolute certainty what your actions will be. But you can't have both.

DZ,

To me, that sounds like you have put God into a box of human making. God is absolutely sovereign (except he did not create evil) and in his absolute sovereign, He has provided human beings with the power of alternate choice (free will).

It's not an either/or, i.e. free will or God's absolute foreknowledge of what WILL take place. It is both/and.

God in his sovereignty, omnipotence, omniscience and all of his other attributes provided human beings with genuine choice, starting with Adam and Eve in the Garden and the choice of which tree they will eat from.

From God's perspective, he provides genuine human free will, within the parameters of his sovereignty.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

God is limited to human logic?

Really?

I suggest that our human logic finds it difficult to comprehend the sovereign God who allows genuine human choice/free will.

 

[DZoolander]

If you are in your backyard and a drone sees you swimming in a pool, did it just coerce you into swimming?

The drone is simply observing you do something after the fact - after the choice was made

 

[DZoolander]

DZ,

To me, that sounds like you have put God into a box of human making. God is absolutely sovereign (except he did not create evil) and in his absolute sovereign, He has provided human beings with the power of alternate choice (free will).

It's not an either/or, i.e. free will or God's absolute foreknowledge of what WILL take place. It is both/and.

God in his sovereignty, omnipotence, omniscience and all of his other attributes provided human beings with genuine choice, starting with Adam and Eve in the Garden and the choice of which tree they will eat from.

From God's perspective, he provides genuine human free will, within the parameters of his sovereignty.

Oz

I simply don’t see how you can argue that:

“You can do A or B” (free will)
And
“You WILL (therefore MUST) do A” (perfect foreknowledge)

Can coexist and both be true