Open Theism

[lesliedellow]

The open theist view says God is 'more amazing' and omniscient than the limited doctrine of 'closed' theism.

We say Gods plans are 'not' thwarted by beings with free choices.

Where closed-theism seems to assume that some human decision would upset and throw off God's plan!

We see God as so Omniscient - as to be able to work His plan - all while humans have freewill. God is an all knowing God; allowing all people to be free, knows what they are thinking, brings about his plans irregardless of our actions, and yet can answer, accommodate, tolerate, and when he wants to intervene - He can.

We do not believe God limits Himself and all the actions within the Universe - simply because Calvinists think His will and plans might get outsmarted and thrown off by freewill.

We say God is never outsmarted - and we have no worries of such - because Our God is infinitely smarter than a god who must limit Himself and everything so not to get lost or outsmarted.

So if God wants Jeremiah to prophesy to the Israelites, he can let him not prophesy to the Israelites, and still have him prophesy to the Israelites.

 

[ghtan]

This is normally not seen as an issue of God's omniscience, but rather of the fact that as fully man, when he is speaking as a man he doesn't have full knowledge. Remember, it's a heresy to deny that he has a distinct human mind.

He also died, but that's not taken as evidence against God's immortality.

OT itself is considered a heresy by classical theists, hence questioning other man-made doctrines should not deter OT. Logically, Jesus’ ignorance of the date of his return has everything to do with his omniscience since it relates directly to his knowledge. If it is not normally seen as an issue of God’s omniscience, it is probably because classical theists are embarrassed by Jesus’ admission and therefore reluctant to talk about it. OT does not need to be embarrassed because it believes the future is not fixed.

Perhaps we can look at it this way: Jesus had been using his divine mind to prophesy about the future in verses 1-31 of Mark 13; are we to believe that he suddenly switched to using his human mind in verse 32? It is just too convenient an explanation.

 

[ghtan]

The open theist view says God is 'more amazing' and omniscient than the limited doctrine of 'closed' theism.

We say Gods plans are 'not' thwarted by beings with free choices.

Where closed-theism seems to assume that some human decision would upset and throw off God's plan!

We see God as so Omniscient - as to be able to work His plan - all while humans have freewill. God is an all knowing God; allowing all people to be free, knows what they are thinking, brings about his plans irregardless of our actions, and yet can answer, accommodate, tolerate, and when he wants to intervene - He can.

We do not believe God limits Himself and all the actions within the Universe - simply because Calvinists think His will and plans might get outsmarted and thrown off by freewill.

We say God is never outsmarted - and we have no worries of such - because Our God is infinitely smarter than a god who must limit Himself and everything so not to get lost or outsmarted.

Absolutely! It is like an undefeated grand chessmaster is more amazing than an expert computer programmer who knows exactly what a machine will do because he programmed it that way.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I have what you might call a semi open view.

God has perfect foreknowledge of what he will do and nothing can stay his hand.
However where man is concerned because God gave man a freewill God does not know what man will do until man has set his heart on doing it. Thus scripture tells us God searches our hearts.. If God foreknew what we as individuals are going to do from a static foreknowledge from eternity past He would have no need to search our hearts.

I disagree because your statement directly contradicts Psalm 139:16.

"Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be."

 

[Pneuma3]

I disagree because your statement directly contradicts Psalm 139:16.

"Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be."

Read the whole chapter as it starts out this way.

KJV
O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.

LXX
O Lord, thou hast proved me, and known me

God know these things of the psalmist because God had searched him and known him.
And the LXX has your verse this way.



My bones, which thou madest in secret were not hidden from thee, nor my substance, in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes saw my unwrought substance, and all men shall be written in thy book; they shall be formed by day, though there should for a time be no one among them.

God knows ALL things because God searches out all things. Thus where man is concerned it is not static omniscience but an omniscience via searching.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Read the whole chapter as it starts out this way.

KJV
O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.

LXX
O Lord, thou hast proved me, and known me

God know these things of the psalmist because God had searched him and known him.
And the LXX has your verse this way.



My bones, which thou madest in secret were not hidden from thee, nor my substance, in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes saw my unwrought substance, and all men shall be written in thy book; they shall be formed by day, though there should for a time be no one among them.

God knows ALL things because God searches out all things. Thus where man is concerned it is not static omniscience but an omniscience via searching.

So what does "all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" mean?

 

[Pneuma3]

So what does "all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" mean?

does it say that or does it say what the LXX says? and our not 70+ years the allotted time for man?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So what does "all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" mean?

Simple.
The days of our lives are all scheduled.
Long before we were created.
Long before we were conceived in the womb.
Our lives were planned in great detail.
And provision was generously planned for every need and purpose,
as Yahweh Delighted to Do.

 

[zelosravioli]

Two ends of the scale;
God determines 'all' our actions < _____> God does 'not' manipulate 'any' of our actions.

I believe the truth is in the middle:
God determines all our actions <____________________
________ God can/does limit/cause some of our actions _______
__________ > God does not manipulate any of our actions.

On one end of the scale 'everything' has been pre-programmed, and will do only as God has determined it do. This is not classical Theism.

On the other end 'nothing' is ordained 'everything' is completely open ended. This is not Open Theism.

Open Theism believes God is free to pick, choose, work with and 'control' beings who have freewill, if He so wishes. But this is not the norm - because God is ultimately wiser - and able to influence and out think free-willed creatures without over riding their freewills.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

(chuckling at the way that is worded --- God
is able
to "out think"
creatures.......

hahaha , yes, that is certainly and absolutely true all the time !

 

[hedrick]

Two ends of the scale;
God determines 'all' our actions < _____> God does 'not' manipulate 'any' of our actions.

I believe the truth is in the middle:
God determines all our actions <____________________
________ God can/does limit/cause some of our actions _______
__________ > God does not manipulate any of our actions.

On one end of the scale 'everything' has been pre-programmed, and will do only as God has determined it do. This is not classical Theism.

On the other end 'nothing' is ordained 'everything' is completely open ended. This is not Open Theism.

Open Theism believes God is free to pick, choose, work with and 'control' beings who have freewill, if He so wishes. But this is not the norm - because God is ultimately wiser - and able to influence and out think free-willed creatures without over riding their freewills.

Technically I believe you're talking about Arminianism, not open theism. Arminianism says that God doesn't determine most of our actions. Open theism says that God can't see the entire future in detail.

Some Arminians are open theists, but not all. Some believe that God can foresee things even though he doesn't determine them. I have some questions about the logical coherency of this position, but it seems to be more common than open theism.

 

[zelosravioli]

Technically I believe you're talking about Arminianism, not open theism. Arminianism says that God doesn't determine most of our actions. Open theism says that God can't see the entire future in detail.

Some Arminians are open theists, but not all. Some believe that God can foresee things even though he doesn't determine them. I have some questions about the logical coherency of this position, but it seems to be more common than open theism.

True. I was just trying to explain a premise 'behind' 'some' open theists view of foreseeing, not the doctrine itself.

My simple diagram / explanation is to show two opposite ends of the predetermined spectrum. On one end there are no - variable's, as everything is determined. Anything to the right of the left would take increasingly more complicated computing because the variables increase expedentually as less and less is predetermined.
I am purposefully over simplifying this to show why 'it takes more intellect to compute an outcome' when you add in 'zillions of more variables' with every micro second - vs a universe where all our actions are known far in advance.

In other words: It would be 'simpler' for God if 'everything' was predetermined in advance.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Some believe that God can foresee things even though he doesn't determine them. I have some questions about the logical coherency of this position, but it seems to be more common than open theism.

Since Yahweh knows everything throughout all time and outside of time,
that what you say about open theism falls down.

"foresee" is a given. Then, now, yesterday, today and forever,
Yahweh 'determines' whatever He Pleases - He Does whatever He wants.

He tells in His Word all about this (as He Pleases, what He wants us to know) , from Creation to the end of the Apocalypse, from the beginning of time to the rolling up of the universe...

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

does it say that or does it say what the LXX says? and our not 70+ years the allotted time for man?

Well, given that LXX is a Greek translation of the Old Testament, why not go with the original hebrew which is translated as, "
Your eyes could see me as an embryo, but in your book all my days were already written; my days had been shaped before any of them existed."
Tehillim (Psa) 139:16 CJB

 

[zelosravioli]

Since Yahweh knows everything throughout all time and outside of time,
that what you say about open theism falls down.

"foresee" is a given. Then, now, yesterday, today and forever,
Yahweh 'determines' whatever He Pleases - He Does whatever He wants.

He tells in His Word all about this (as He Pleases, what He wants us to know) , from Creation to the end of the Apocalypse, from the beginning of time to the rolling up of the universe...

First of all I really appreciate your devotion and honesty it comes through in your posts.

But... 'Foresee' is not a given, it may be an assumption 'if' your saying God is somehow seeing the 'future' - rather than 'bringing' His plans to pass - in real time.

We believe that is one major assumption of limited theism, that the future has 'already' happened.

I find no logical necessity, philosophical 'reason', or scriptural reason, to assume God must be ''outside' of 'time'. I feel that's an unnecessary (mystical) attempt to 'try' and explain how (or why) God knows what will happen in the future.

We say God simply brings these things to pass 'as they happen' - saying God needs to time travel in order to see the future; thats like saying God needs a crystal ball to see the future (why would 'God' need to see what He's gonna do in the future?)

We say God will do what He said He will do -in real time, when He wants, without any need of 'time travel' (this makes more sense also)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

He Created Time. There is no passage of time in the life to come in heaven.
Before there was time, He was, without beginning He always was.
The whle time frame or spectrum, Genesis through Revelation,
the Creation through Armageddon, through to the dissolving of all the elements and rolling up of the Universe... and on and on
Yahweh is present.
He does not have to time travel - He is Always there, Already.

He doesn't "foresee"...... He Always Knew. He is Perfect, He is Spirit, He never changes.

 

[zelosravioli]

He Created Time. There is no passage of time in the life to come in heaven.
Before there was time, He was, without beginning He always was.
The whle time frame or spectrum, Genesis through Revelation,
the Creation through Armageddon, through to the dissolving of all the elements and rolling up of the Universe... and on and on
Yahweh is present.
He does not have to time travel - He is Always there, Already.

He doesn't "foresee"...... He Always Knew. He is Perfect, He is Spirit, He never changes.

I agree generally with everything you said; 'He does not have to time travel...'
The idea of time certainly mystifies, and it allows the imagination to think of time in metaphysical terms - as if the 'future' is something that could be seen... but I believe this thinking creates alot more problems than it solves...

Time though is not a 'thing'. Time is a 'measurement'. Like an inch, a mile, or a pound - a pound is not a thing or a something anymore than an inch is something. Time is just a measurement of movement, and a recording of the movement in relation to 'where' it 'was'.

'He Created Time' - yes. Before there was anything to measure there would have been no time. But as soon as God created (two objects that moved) - time would have been able to be measured (so, God created time, as well as inches, miles, duration, speed, span, girth, depth, length, etc ...)

I came to believe in God 'because God made sense out of everything that existed'. I am fascinated by Gods logic and reason in creation, and in scripture. I believe God created wisdom, physics, science, mathematics, biology, along with everything else, and so I have never had a reason to believe something that is illogical or something that doesn't make sense in order to believe God.

When God says 'He is the beginning and the end' - I understand that to mean God created the 'beginning' of creation and He can just as easily 'end' creation - 'if' He wanted to (God can do whatever He wants and wills). Thats why I fear God, for that is too awesome for me.

It doesn't make sense to think God is 'in the end' - or that the 'end' exists somewhere - especially since God promised us eternal life... that sounds more hopeful, wouldn't you agree...

 

[ghtan]

Heaven is God's home and Rev 8:1 says there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. So God more likely lives in time than outside it.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

First of all I really appreciate your devotion and honesty it comes through in your posts.

But... 'Foresee' is not a given, it may be an assumption 'if' your saying God is somehow seeing the 'future' - rather than 'bringing' His plans to pass - in real time.

What then is the Book of Revelation?

 

[zelosravioli]

'The Book of Revelation' is a 'vision'.

Revelation has a 'variety' of events and 'places'. And 'some' things 'might' be a peek into what 'is', or 'was', happening in Heaven 'when' John recorded the words. But as far as the future events go...

This could be just as the visions of Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and others, a vision. A vision does not have to mean your seeing an actual thing or event - but God is giving you a vision of something, or what He is 'planning' to do. Like a dream.

Immediately following the letters to the churches, the vision of the future begins with this:
"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne..." (Rev 4)

Note it says: "... what must take place" (as in what will take place). Nothing in the book demands that this is anything more than a vision - not looking into the 'future'.

'What must happen' (Greek Dei) = it is necessary, inevitable; it is a duty, what is proper. Same word Dei translated here in Matthew 24:6, 25:27 and 26:35;
"You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end' 24:6
‘Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 25:27
'Peter said to Him, “Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You.” All the disciples said the same thing too' 26:35

And many other verses translate Dei / δεῖ as; must, ought, should, shall - take place. Nothing here says they 'have' or 'are' taking place.