[Open] tags-a read and respond thread for all

[MarkRohfrietsch]

What we could do to differenciate... is mJ is messianic Jew and Mj is Messianic Judaism. So... mJ or Mj only can be clear.

I'm with Shimshon on this.

I'm thinking that the tags should be a little more clear than just upper and lower case.

 

[yedida]

Yedida, I'm using your post not to pick on you but to use it for a point.

'gentiles following Messianic Judaism'

Messianic Judaism is defined as Jews who came to faith in Messiah/Christ. Some may not like how some of the Jews lean to far to the Christ side and some love the way some of the Jews lean way over to the Messiah(Jewish) side. But the movement is/was/should remain a movement of Jews who come to faith in Messiah. We have our ways of belief and worship, as we have come out of many different forms of 'Judaism'.

IMHO Gentiles can be called to serve right besides Jews in our 'synagouges', but they are not called to be us. They are known to have a very strong love for us and live as though they are us, BUT KNOW INSIDE that God made them just as saved and filled with the Spirit as us even though they are not Jews. Meaning they serve right besides and worship right besides, AS GENTILES.

But they have never been called to have our identity. They love our identity in God so much they live with and among us.

The lie comes when others, usually Gentiles, start to believe they were called to be considered Jews being called by God to be identified through the Torah given Moshe rather than the Torah given us all through Yeshua.

Where do I get all this? From the large body of world wide Jews who follow Messianic Judaism.



My point, the stated ministry and mission from two of the largest Messianic Jewish organizations in the world, having deep roots and ties in the Land, state nowhere about gentiles observing Torah as their focus. In fact it's not stated at all.

It's a movement of JEWS, about Jews who do not leave their Jewish heritage or worship for Church traditions, but continue to be Jewish in our love and observance to Yeshua and his commands.

What is put forth by many here in this forum is that Messianic Judaism is a Torah for Gentiles movement. That Gentiles can observe Messianic Judaism by following the Torah given Moshe. This is so far off from the statements of world wide Messianic Jews.

It's not about creating a second class citizen, that would be the devils thought. It's about letting a Jew be the Jew he was called and made, and letting Gentiles be the holy child of Abraham they were called to be. Male and Female, Jew and Gentile, One flesh. Has NOTHING to do with Gentiles being commanded to observe as Jews. Unless your talking about the commands Yeshua gave as the Word of God spoken in the flesh. Those we are commanded to follow as Torah.

With that said, I am all for unity and peace. But how peaceful do you think Orthodox Jews are in the existence of Messianic Jews? I think you know that answer. I see a mirror issue between us. The same way Rabbinical Jews do not believe Messianic's truly identify themselves as Jews. Messianic Jews do not believe Messianic Gentiles are truly identifying themselves in the proper way.

Who is a Jew.......will this never end? This is truly a sad thing. Especially when it shouldn't be at all. As our life in God through Yehsua has NOTHING to do with our Jewishness. sigh...oy.

I'm glad you said this For a long while I was thinking or reading that you did not want gentiles in MJ. I don't know of anyone on this forum who is gentile that says they are Jewish. I know for myself I'm constantly stating that I'm gentile (and I even have 2 family trees to follow, adoptive and birth, and I'm as gentile as they get!!).
And it is a calling by the Spirit. If someone just decided in a fleshly manner to live this life it wouldn't last much more than a few months - you should know, it isn't fun and games - it's serious.
I can't help it that we gentiles have no other term for what we're living than Messianic Judaism. It would make so much easier if there was another term - but we have to "be" something, that's just the way life is. Terms of identity, beliefs, lifestyles, politics and on and on it goes - words that describe. Messianic Jews and Gentiles would be wonderful but somehow we get overlooked in all this and you guys then think we're trying to be you and we're not. We just want to be us but we don't know what "us" is.......

 

[Lulav]

You know, in all of the forums here, members are forbidden to state or imply that another Christian is "not Christian" or is "less of a Christian". As far a Christian Forums is concerned a "major" Christian denomination is no more Christian than a small group who meet in a "house Church".

I think we all need to realize that just as in main-stream Christianity (what ever that is) there are many diversities, just as there are many diversities within the MJ community; no doubt there are also many diversities within the "major" MJ communities as well.

A flame is a flame regardless of who makes it against who. If your forums are going to work this must be kept in mind.


The rule; please note the portion I highlighted in red:

Thank you for this Mark. I for one, who was brought up in the Christian churches since birth (and my parents were both active in the church, being the organist and Assoc. Minister) am tired of others in this forum continually telling me that I am not Christian enough, telling me I have another religion, etc. This has happened over and over again, yet I have not made any report as such. Perhaps I should have but I hate tattletale and hoped that with mishpocha (family) it could work out, but maybe not.

 

[Lulav]

Please bear with me if I'm over simplifying in my trying to understand...

• The issue here is that there are those who are born Jews who now have faith in the Messiah who no longer observe Jewish traditions regarding the Law, but have a degree of understanding regarding that part of their heritage: One group.

• There are also those who were not born Jewish and have not converted to Judaism, have faith in the Messiah, and by that faith are motivated to keep Jewish traditions regarding the law: Another group.

What do these two groups have in common?

1. Faith in the Messiah.
2. An understanding of Jewish traditions regarding the Law (some to a greater, some to a lesser extent, but still, a degree of understanding).

It seems from where I'm sitting that both of those groups (and myself, being an outsider even) all have the most important thing in common; point 1.


Those groups also share point 2.


Just those two points cover a lot of common ground when it comes to fellowship and even discussion. Is there more that I'm missing here?

Thank you for that also. point number 1 in common is ALL we should be required to have. This is the meat of it, the rest is gravy.

Like Hillel said about learning Torah, Love the L-RD your G-d with all your heart, soul and strength the rest is just commentary.

 

[Lulav]

Shimshon, Yedida, Easy G,

I love you all (and all of the others who have shared their thoughts here in this Forum) for the zeal that you have for your faith and your desire to express and share that faith; which is why we are here.

Likewise, I know that that since none here "lukewarm" like the Laodiceans in the Revelation of St. John 3:14-22, our Lord loves you all as well. Verses 15 and 16 elude to diversity within the one true faith; one cold refreshing and satisfying like a cold beer on a hot day (my heritage is German Lutheran so I like beer); the other hot and steamy like a cup of tea or coffee, equally satisfying (I enjoy those too); yet very different! It's lukewarm indifference that our Lord has taken issue with.

Yet within this diversity there is commonality as well; if we turn to the Gospels of St. Luke 9:20 and St. John 6:68,69, the confession of St. Peter in which we all share: "The Christ of God." and "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (NKJV).

Yedida, please stick around, we need you and I believe our Lord needs you to be here!

Believe me when I say that the last thing I desire is "warm and fuzzy", "happy-clappy" "Kum-bi-ya" "melting pot" ecumenism here or elsewhere in CF; we all know that this will not work in this life; and for me I see such as that "lukewarm" Christianity which our Lord condemns in Rev. 3:16.

As I have stated before, I see many parallels in this forum and my own Lutheran forum, Theologia Crucis. We have two very divergent groups there; The Confessional Lutherans who hold the Lutheran Confessions, that is, the 1580 edition of the Book of Concord as the true exposition and explanation of the doctrines and practice revealed to us in Scripture (us). The other Group, the Liberal Lutherans, who discount the BoC as a mere historical document.

Many of the "Confessionals" who hold the very catholic and orthodox (our opinion) theology of the BoC no longer view the "Liberals" being Lutheran, but see the retention of that label as being only a heritage thing in light of their adoption of a more "reformed protestant" ecumenical approach to doctrine and practice.

See the similarities?

Yes, in the past there was much strife and at times all out war between our two groups, but despite the diversity and our differences, we have found that we, through self discipline (and a bit of help on behalf or Staff), can coexist in relative peace in our common forum; yet we go our separate ways in our respective subfora.

It is my hope, my belief and my prayer that something similar may be achieved for all of you here as well!

May our Lord grant that through His Word, we may delight in His Will, and walk in His Ways, to the Glory of His Holy Name! Amen.

Again, thank you Mark, if only some of our Messianics here could be so tolerant and welcoming.

It seems to me that the ones having problems in this forum are the ones to whom the label 'Hebrew Christian' fits best. And I am wondering why they are being allowed to dictate the course of this forum? Maybe you should keep the Hebrew Christians in this forums and make a forum in the other areas for those who believe in Messiah and believe that Torah was not done away with.

There are two MJ's really, and this is what happened in the first century, and one won out and called the others heretics. This same thing is happening here.

Perhaps it is best to let the Hebrew Christians have this forum and allow those that believe in Messiah but not in everything that anyone else says about him their own forum? That forum of course will allow the non Messianic Jews to post freely as well.

 

[Lulav]

Mark,
I will kindly step down and let Shimshon have his forum I have never said the things he claims, shoot, most of the time he's not even around. (Seems very strange that everytime he has shown up someone gets into trouble and then he disappears again.
But I will not stay where I'm not wanted, so kindly cancel my account. Thanks

While I'm still active here, I wanted to openly apoogize. for making such a statement. I should never have said that. It was very childish and immature. I am sorry. I hope you will forgive me

Yedida, I see no reason to apologize, you spoke the truth, this is his MO and he seems more bent lately to turn this forum into what he wants since his own is not functioning any longer.

Don't go, we will find a way.

 

[yedida]

Yedida, I see no reason to apologize, you spoke the truth, this is his MO and he seems more bent lately to turn this forum into what he wants since his own is not functioning any longer.

Don't go, we will find a way.

I spent a large part of the night and morning in prayer over this and I believe I'm being directed to hang in a little longer. There's got to be a way to make this work.

 

[Lulav]

Yedida, I'm using your post not to pick on you but to use it for a point.

'gentiles following Messianic Judaism'

Messianic Judaism is defined as Jews who came to faith in Messiah/Christ. Some may not like how some of the Jews lean to far to the Christ side and some love the way some of the Jews lean way over to the Messiah(Jewish) side. But the movement is/was/should remain a movement of Jews who come to faith in Messiah. We have our ways of belief and worship, as we have come out of many different forms of 'Judaism'.

IMHO Gentiles can be called to serve right besides Jews in our 'synagouges', but they are not called to be us. They are known to have a very strong love for us and live as though they are us, BUT KNOW INSIDE that God made them just as saved and filled with the Spirit as us even though they are not Jews. Meaning they serve right besides and worship right besides, AS GENTILES.

But they have never been called to have our identity. They love our identity in God so much they live with and among us.

The lie comes when others, usually Gentiles, start to believe they were called to be considered Jews being called by God to be identified through the Torah given Moshe rather than the Torah given us all through Yeshua.

Where do I get all this? From the large body of world wide Jews who follow Messianic Judaism.



My point, the stated ministry and mission from two of the largest Messianic Jewish organizations in the world, having deep roots and ties in the Land, state nowhere about gentiles observing Torah as their focus. In fact it's not stated at all.

It's a movement of JEWS, about Jews who do not leave their Jewish heritage or worship for Church traditions, but continue to be Jewish in our love and observance to Yeshua and his commands.

What is put forth by many here in this forum is that Messianic Judaism is a Torah for Gentiles movement. That Gentiles can observe Messianic Judaism by following the Torah given Moshe. This is so far off from the statements of world wide Messianic Jews.

It's not about creating a second class citizen, that would be the devils thought. It's about letting a Jew be the Jew he was called and made, and letting Gentiles be the holy child of Abraham they were called to be. Male and Female, Jew and Gentile, One flesh. Has NOTHING to do with Gentiles being commanded to observe as Jews. Unless your talking about the commands Yeshua gave as the Word of God spoken in the flesh. Those we are commanded to follow as Torah.

With that said, I am all for unity and peace. But how peaceful do you think Orthodox Jews are in the existence of Messianic Jews? I think you know that answer. I see a mirror issue between us. The same way Rabbinical Jews do not believe Messianic's truly identify themselves as Jews. Messianic Jews do not believe Messianic Gentiles are truly identifying themselves in the proper way.

Who is a Jew.......will this never end? This is truly a sad thing. Especially when it shouldn't be at all. As our life in God through Yehsua has NOTHING to do with our Jewishness. sigh...oy.

Just so you have both sides of the equation Mark, there are Messianic Gentile 'Rabbis' in the movement as well. Many Messianic congregations are run by Gentiles. If you've been here long enough you will remember Pastor George, who is a Messianic minister, with accreditation from the CTOMC. They define themselves as such:

Although we are separated by geographical location, we are nonetheless a community. We are NOT a movement, nor a renewing of an old movement. We are a community of Believers that through our common love for Messiah Yeshua have gathered together for fellowship, study and support, as a community should.

First Fruits of Zion which many here adhere to their teachings is run by a Messianic Gentile. T. Lancaster. I'm a Messianic Gentile

Here is one group for instance that has a completely different view of MJ

How The OMJRA Defines Messianic

Unfortunately, the word messianic has changed from its historical meaning. Historically this word was synonymous with Judaism in that Judaism was and is forever linked with the belief in a redemptive messiah.
Recent years have seen the term messianic become less Jewish and more Christian in its definition. As a result the term messianic has been redefined in a way that has removed the term from the realm of Jewish thought and brought it into the realm of Christian Theology.
The members of the Observant Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Association, want to reverse this trend and return the word to its historical & traditional meaning. Therefore, you will not find traditional Christian teachings on this web site. The members of the OMJRA are Jewish. In fact, we are Torah-Observant Jews who cling to the ancient promise of a Jewish messiah. As a result, the OMJRA members do not subscribe to Christian doctrines or beliefs. our members do not seek to make converts to Christianity of our fellow Jews. Rather our members seek to promote Torah Observance to our people and to promote an understanding of Torah through out the nations.

This is the Messianic Judaism that those who are Hebrew Christians are fighting against, this was the Judaism of the early first century and some are trying to get back to.

As you can see if you read this and followed the few links I gave (there is much more) it is more diverse than some here are letting on.

 

[Shimshon]

This is an example of fringe organizations that have popped up over the last 10yrs or so. MJAA and UMJC range almost a hundred years of organization between them. They are the 'establishment' of Messianic Judaism. MJAA is almost 100yrs old, and UMJC is over 30.

The organizations Lulav just mentioned, minus FFOZ who has reversed it's position on Gentile Torah observance just last year, are vying for identity with the MJ movement at the moment. But there is a current move within these fringes to form a new union altogether comprised of Torah observant gentilles, or Messianic Gentiles. They are forming battle lines as we speak, seeking to divide out and identify as a group 'opposed' to the established Messianic Judaism.

They refer to us a Hebrew Christians and Church in a kippah in a derogatory way. Implying we are not Jewish because we don't believe their interpretation of Yeshua's commands. It's a reactionary movement to the established Messianic Jewish community. And should not be seen as a simple division, it's theological anarchy at it's finest. It's a group of outsiders who have a completely different theology in regards to the commands of Messiah. No Messianic Jew has ever tried to teach and preach that the message Yeshua gave was to follow the Torah given at Sinai. This is something new that has come about in the last 10yrs. Messianic Judaism started over 2000yrs ago by Jews who believe in Messiah. The records we have of Messianic Jews over the centuries all indicate they wanted to reach other Jews in regard to the commands of Messiah, not the commands given through Moshe.

Again, these organization are a reaction to the whole of Messianic Jews in the world. If we are fighting anything, it is to keep what we have. Not to change a thing.

With my emphasis:
Unfortunately, the word messianic has changed from its historical meaning. Historically this word was synonymous with Judaism in that Judaism was and is forever linked with the belief in a redemptive messiah.
Recent years have seen the term messianic become less Jewish and more Christian in its definition. As a result the term messianic has been redefined in a way that has removed the term from the realm of Jewish thought and brought it into the realm of Christian Theology.
The members of the Observant Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Association, want to reverse this trend and return the word to its historical & traditional meaning. Therefore, you will not find traditional Christian teachings on this web site. The members of the OMJRA are Jewish. In fact, we are Torah-Observant Jews who cling to the ancient promise of a Jewish messiah. As a result, the OMJRA members do not subscribe to Christian doctrines or beliefs. our members do not seek to make converts to Christianity of our fellow Jews. Rather our members seek to promote Torah Observance to our people and to promote an understanding of Torah through out the nations.

They are NOT Christians, nor do they follow Christian teaching or doctrine. They seek to promote Mosaic Torah observance to Jews, placing us back under the instructions given through Moshe, denying there was ever a change in the priesthood or how we relate to Torah now. Especially denying the Torah commanded by Yeshua when here on earth.

They claim we hyjacked their Judaism and are going to prove we are nothing but 'church in a kippah'.

I find all of these organizations claiming 'TRUTH' over the established truth of the community. They have the 'real' message.

Yet, our message, my message comes straight from the bible. I can prove over and over again, the commads of Yeshua. As witnessed and testified by those who God gave him to learn such things.

They say they have not changed, they are still bound by Torah given through Moshe. We say we have changed, Yeshua released his children from the Land and instructed us on how to live in the world. We agree with Christianity about Messiah, they do not. They believe Messiah came to restore them to Torah observance given at Sinai. Thus making them Jewish.

We have two completely opposing views, that center around Messiah.

We are comfortable with our new wineskins, I think they are not. They long for the old, when that which was promised from the beginning has come. And it requires us to reach out and take hold of that which has NOW come into the world that was NEVER spoken.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17 For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

34 All these things Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed, he said nothing to them without a parable. 35 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet:"I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world."

 

[visionary]

Clearly this is what makes the faith, Judaism a question that needs to be addressed. Jews believe it is exclusively theirs and in some ways it is. The Judaism that a lot of Messianic Judaism believers want to believe and follow is that example that Yeshua gave us. It is a spiritual law, it is that which is written in stone and now transferred to the heart. Those things that Moses wrote on parchment point to the Messiah, point to a better way of living, and deal with Levites and temple services where are no longer. This is well versed in the Book of Hebrews.

In a movement, there is less rigidity to organizations and which directions the leaders want to demand the followers must adhere to as much as there is a body of people who are more like Bereans and studying to see if it is so. They depend on God to be their shepherd. They want to hear His Voice and Obey/follow Him.

Right now we have...

1.) Sunday Christians who are Jews
2.) Messianic Jews who are abiding within the orthodox Judaism or reform Judaism with a faith IN Yeshua as the Messiah
3.) Messianics who could be either Gentile or Jew but who see that since the Messiah has come and fulfilled certain aspects of what prophectically was written on Moses' Parchment and has gone on to continue with His High Priest ministry before His Father, they still follow the other aspects of what is on Moses' parchment that have no fulfillment in Messiahship. Dietary laws, Feasts are kept either in a memorial or a reheasal, and other laws like mikvah, discerning that which is sexual morality, family order, and learning how Yeshua understood and explained those Moses' laws ["in the beginning it was not so"]

So here we cluster around the name each struggling for supremacy of what defines us.

 

[visionary]

He is our example...
1.) Messiah guarded and obeyed the Torah commandments of our Creator.
2.) Messiah kept the Shabbat.
3.) Messiah kept the dietary instructions.
4.) Messiah kept the Moadim - in fact, so much so, that He even arranged that He was born on one of them, died on another of them, was buried on one of them, and rose from the dead on one of them.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

What good will it do to have an MJ only tag when the real division lay between those in that group. The real issue is Torah obervance for gentiles. The whole of the argument is over who is supposed to be Torah observant and how Torah observant are you supposed to be......

SO!

Why not change the tag to TO only. Then the topic of Torah observance by Gentiles can be freely discussed without fear of being attacked by Christians OR Messianic Jews.

They may have their threads kept kosher and observant to their Messianic Way.

Now I fully realize this gag's my own witness in those threads. But for the love of unity that you all have here, would this not be the best solution?

TO Only..... And their community can be built. They already have a forum. And prayerfully may we both respect each others forums.

Would this not be the best solution?

I'm inclined to agree; what do the others think?

I'm with Shimshon on this.

Ditto....\

Though I do think it's noteworthy to see how it doesn't really seem that ANYBODY (regardless of what side they're on) is really staying within the sections made for all to interact with others having the same thoughts, just as it'd be of differing communities complaining of the other inteferring with their children/space when at the city park....and not realizing that they tend to bring it on themselves when they choose not to play with others within the local parks of their own neighborhoods/streets and go to larger ones since there's more activity. Some things just come with the territory---and as long as all of us keep choosing to make threads in the general forum called "Messianic Judaim", either there's going to be forced segregation akin to "colored fountains" /"white fountains only" and seperate space as they occurred in the South...or there's going to be the dynamic of intergration of differing groups that disagree on a host of issues/learning to get along just like it occurrred in Southern history. Many times, others had to learn to get along if they were going to be in places that required them to share the same space...and while having their own spaces to talk amongst themselves/be with others of the same mind was good, there was the reality that either side trying to force the other to CONFORM to what it wanted in ALL Shared/Public spaces was not going to be effective. Either there was going to be all-out war..or peaceful/mutual dialouge...and for many, it was often the case that what caused the most trouble was pride. Each side wanting to have their own way, but only seeing the other do the same things they themselves did on certain occassions.

May we learn some lessons from the past. IMHO, seperate forums are a good idea/have worked---but just trying to keep everyone on their own side of the sandbox isn't going to address the larger issue that many of us simply DO NOT KNOW how to get along with those who are different than us. Many times, IMHO, it has seemed like people don't even know how to talk to one another considerately--and then when others respond or react, there's a fight and the assumption is "Well, we just need to part ways!!!!" rather than stepping back....and seeing how/where it was that basic skills of communication could've been developed. Being on other forums, this has often been something that has come up whenever it seems that people may spend more time talking AT one another rather than WITH one another in dialouge---and in sharing the same spaces, they don't know how to disagree on things AGREEABLY and be cordial.

I know I don't speak for all others..but personally, I think things could work in this scenario: Someone wants to discuss with others who may be Torah-Observant as they are....and a tag is made to indicate only those with the same mindsets are invited. Disagreements may occur within that thread, but they may be held to a minimum and it's generally "YES " men/women supporting one another...and the same dynamic can be done with other diversities of thought on the forum. However, for those who choose to come into the MAIN Forum that is not limited to one camp and they are open others with differing views coming in, what can make the conversation work is when others simply learn how to listen/interact according to James 3:13-18 or what Proverbs often notes when it comes to guarding our words. Other forums have had such success, including those beyond the scope of "CHRISTIAN Forums"---be it with Christians talking to Non-Christians on issues or with believers of differing camps coming together and sharing their own unique experiences for the sake of learning. This is the way it's done in the classroom of many professors and students--and I hope the same could happen here.

A Tag alone may not be necessary (nor other forums) to maintain peace/find ways to get along if there's not a concern on trying to make anyone agree with us in order for us to still love and learn from them. My saying this may be due to my own multicultural/multi-religious background where others from all camps were forced to be in limited spaces and look for ways to interact.....and it was a blast, even when I may've sharply disagreed with another.

Seriously, do I need a tag or another forum to talk with one who may differ sharply when it comes to things we can ALL find agreement on like sports, raising family/kids, sharing things we need prayer for, movies we enjoyed or things common to everyday life?? Do I need a tag in order to laugh with someone who may be in a camp I don't agree with? ANyone who has neighbors (as do we all) has to understand that they may go to places/things you may disagree with--and thus, the entire reason why there's seperation---yet that doesn't mean you can't come together on the block and find common ground. As you all live/interact in the same neighborhood, there's absolutely no reason as to why there needs to be a "cold war" of sorts. There's a way to talk with your neighbors in the morning when you take out the trash or..as what occurred in the old school...actually INVITE those different from you over to have a conversation since love/being Good Samaritans to one another (Luke 10:25-39) entailed that interaction not be based on agreement alone when it comes to helping one another. And if it can happen within that context, \why does it seem so difficult for all of us to do the same thing here?

Sometimes, it seems the the ways many of us interact with others are small....and I actually think it can be dishonorable to the Lord in how we can react to one another But again, that's just me based on what I've seen in the scriptures.

If a specifc tag is to be used, again, I don't knock it. I just think it may need to be examined more fully. Going back to the analogy of what occurred in the South, within that era, there was mixture and others had to learn how to interact by seeing where the other was coming from---and a label alone couldn't define someone fully since they often meant different things depending on the context. Not everyone, for example, who belonged to the Black Panthers was automatically against all others who were white...and not everyone saying they were militant meant that they were for terrorizing all people within a group (as some militants were), nor was it the case that all people saying they were for peaceful resistance/boycotting meant that they didn't have racist tendencies toward others outside of the "black vs white" spectrum...as even other groups outside of Black/White ethnicity faced stereotyping and deragatory comments by others within a camp.



Likewise, not everyone using a term needs to be pegged in ..nor do I think having a label alone will solve all things fully if there's not in-depth explanation. The labeling of tags on what specifc type of group is invited to discuss (i.e. "Torah Observant") can work, but as the very term means DIFFERENTLY to so many groups just like the term "Hebrew Christian" (which others often refer to one being for Hebrew Roots), there needs to be more explanation given in a tag (or a disclaimer) given on what type of TO they may be, just as it'd be with someone saying they believe in "Grace-Filled Torah Observance" as opposed to Torah observance being seen in the sense of legalism or adhering to all things within the Mosaic code.

"Grace filled" Torah observance, if wanting to see what it is all about, can be seen in the apostle Paul----for he spoke and wrote proudly that he is, not was, a Pharisee (Acts 23:6; Phil. 3:5), yet his understanding of the Kingdom of Christ/its principles helped him to appreciate the Old with the New. It is why it was clear from text that he felt the OT had principles to learn from it in the multiple times he referenced it—-whether in 1 Corinthians 10:1-13 in citing the examples of the failures of the Israelites with sexual immorality/grumbling and saying they happened as OUR EXAMPLES/WARNINGS for us today….or in his citing of Deuteronomy 25:3-5 when it came to Church Planters in 1 Corinthians 9:8-10/ 1 Corinthians 9 (and also, 1 Timothy 5:17-19 ) concerning supporting.

The same goes for Paul in his referencing/citing Exodus 16:17-19 in regards to gathering when he spoke on being a generous giver in 2 Corinthians 8:14-16. Add to that 2 Corinthians 4:12-14 when he referenced Psalm 116:10. Dozens of other examples besides this, as well as plenty of scholary books/references on the issue of how those within the first 3 centuries of the Church actually referenced the examples of the saints for Church Practice/Encouragement.

He made clear he did nothing against the Law ( Acts 25:7-9, Acts 24:13-15 , Acts 28:22-24 )--with his teachings making others zealous for the Law ( Acts 21:19-21, Acts 21:23-25, etc)---yet within that, He never sought to make it out as if Gentiles were bound to keep all of the codes of the Mosaic Law at all....and even he was willing to do whatever it took to reach them/be all things to all people (I Corinthians 9), within the boundaries God gave them. He understood, as Romans 2 indicates, that even the Gentiles/those without law become a law unto themselves and live out many of the things the Law requires---and thus, its why He later went on in Romans 13 to discuss how love fulfills the requirements of the Law and has always done so.




The people at Rosh Pina Project have done some excellent work on discussing that very issue, as seen here:

• Torah | - The Rosh Pina Project

• "The Law of Messiah « The Rosh Pina Project (an alternative look at Messianic Jews)"

• "Antinomian Theology Within The TOM-J Movement « The Rosh Pina Project (an alternative look at Messianic Jews)" ( )

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Shimshon, Yedida, Easy G,

I love you all (and all of the others who have shared their thoughts here in this Forum) for the zeal that you have for your faith and your desire to express and share that faith; which is why we are here.

Likewise, I know that that since none here "lukewarm" like the Laodiceans in the Revelation of St. John 3:14-22, our Lord loves you all as well. Verses 15 and 16 elude to diversity within the one true faith; one cold refreshing and satisfying like a cold beer on a hot day (my heritage is German Lutheran so I like beer); the other hot and steamy like a cup of tea or coffee, equally satisfying (I enjoy those too); yet very different! It's lukewarm indifference that our Lord has taken issue with.

Yet within this diversity there is commonality as well; if we turn to the Gospels of St. Luke 9:20 and St. John 6:68,69, the confession of St. Peter in which we all share: "The Christ of God." and "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (NKJV).

Yedida, please stick around, we need you and I believe our Lord needs you to be here!

Believe me when I say that the last thing I desire is "warm and fuzzy", "happy-clappy" "Kum-bi-ya" "melting pot" ecumenism here or elsewhere in CF; we all know that this will not work in this life; and for me I see such as that "lukewarm" Christianity which our Lord condemns in Rev. 3:16.

As I have stated before, I see many parallels in this forum and my own Lutheran forum, Theologia Crucis. We have two very divergent groups there; The Confessional Lutherans who hold the Lutheran Confessions, that is, the 1580 edition of the Book of Concord as the true exposition and explanation of the doctrines and practice revealed to us in Scripture (us). The other Group, the Liberal Lutherans, who discount the BoC as a mere historical document.

Many of the "Confessionals" who hold the very catholic and orthodox (our opinion) theology of the BoC no longer view the "Liberals" being Lutheran, but see the retention of that label as being only a heritage thing in light of their adoption of a more "reformed protestant" ecumenical approach to doctrine and practice.

See the similarities?

Yes, in the past there was much strife and at times all out war between our two groups, but despite the diversity and our differences, we have found that we, through self discipline (and a bit of help on behalf or Staff), can coexist in relative peace in our common forum; yet we go our separate ways in our respective subfora.

It is my hope, my belief and my prayer that something similar may be achieved for all of you here as well!

May our Lord grant that through His Word, we may delight in His Will, and walk in His Ways, to the Glory of His Holy Name! Amen.

Standing with you in agreement to what it is that you noted and thank you for taking the time. It is a tremendous blessing and I so appreciate your desire to reflect Christ when he said "Blessed are the Peacemakers" (Matthew 5).

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I spent a large part of the night and morning in prayer over this and I believe I'm being directed to hang in a little longer. There's got to be a way to make this work.

I love what you have posted. This is one of my biggest faults, one I wrestle with daily; I do not pray enough; I guess it's the "old Adam" in me. I forget who wrote it, it may have been St. Francis, but who ever it was said our whole life should be a prayer; they were right. Unfortunately the "world" often get's in the way, and our (my) pride as well. We (I) often spend so much time striving to follow God's will, that I often forget to submit to His will.

May God have mercy on me, a poor sinful being.

God bless you!

 

[visionary]

I love what you have posted. This is one of my biggest faults, one I wrestle with daily; I do not pray enough; I guess it's the "old Adam" in me. I forget who wrote it, it may have been St. Francis, but who ever it was said our whole life should be a prayer; they were right. Unfortunately the "world" often get's in the way, and our (my) pride as well. We (I) often spend so much time striving to follow God's will, that I often forget to submit to His will.

May God have mercy on me, a poor sinful being.

God bless you!

Amen.. there is a big difference between striving and submitting.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm glad you said this For a long while I was thinking or reading that you did not want gentiles in MJ. I don't know of anyone on this forum who is gentile that says they are Jewish. I know for myself I'm constantly stating that I'm gentile (and I even have 2 family trees to follow, adoptive and birth, and I'm as gentile as they get!!).
And it is a calling by the Spirit. If someone just decided in a fleshly manner to live this life it wouldn't last much more than a few months - you should know, it isn't fun and games - it's serious.
I can't help it that we gentiles have no other term for what we're living than Messianic Judaism. It would make so much easier if there was another term - but we have to "be" something, that's just the way life is. Terms of identity, beliefs, lifestyles, politics and on and on it goes - words that describe. Messianic Jews and Gentiles would be wonderful but somehow we get overlooked in all this and you guys then think we're trying to be you and we're not. We just want to be us but we don't know what "us" is.......

Bless you for what you wrote!

I know I'm a bit of an outsider here, but seeing how everyone here is so steadfast in their faith in the Messiah, even I feel part of the "us" in your last sentence!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thank you for this Mark. I for one, who was brought up in the Christian churches since birth (and my parents were both active in the church, being the organist and Assoc. Minister) am tired of others in this forum continually telling me that I am not Christian enough, telling me I have another religion, etc. This has happened over and over again, yet I have not made any report as such. Perhaps I should have but I hate tattletale and hoped that with mishpocha (family) it could work out, but maybe not.

I believe most here feel the same way; me included; for all that happens here, there are very few reports from this forum. Keeping things "in the family" may seem like an honourable thing to do; and it often is, but sometimes when things are left to fester families can become very dysfunctional, and family members can become alienated. Like with families outside CF, our spiritual families can often benefit from some "outside" help.

For those "in the family" issues can become clouded with emotion; those slightly removed can often see through the haze.

I think I said this before; the report button is not a weapon to punish, but a tool that is used to "repair".

Thank you for that also. point number 1 in common is ALL we should be required to have. This is the meat of it, the rest is gravy.

Like Hillel said about learning Torah, Love the L-RD your G-d with all your heart, soul and strength the rest is just commentary.

Again, thank you Mark, if only some of our Messianics here could be so tolerant and welcoming.

It seems to me that the ones having problems in this forum are the ones to whom the label 'Hebrew Christian' fits best. And I am wondering why they are being allowed to dictate the course of this forum? Maybe you should keep the Hebrew Christians in this forums and make a forum in the other areas for those who believe in Messiah and believe that Torah was not done away with.

There are two MJ's really, and this is what happened in the first century, and one won out and called the others heretics. This same thing is happening here.

Perhaps it is best to let the Hebrew Christians have this forum and allow those that believe in Messiah but not in everything that anyone else says about him their own forum? That forum of course will allow the non Messianic Jews to post freely as well.

Indeed, what's happened in the first Century, continues yet today; and not just here either!

Thank you for your kind words and your insight!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Just so you have both sides of the equation Mark, there are Messianic Gentile 'Rabbis' in the movement as well. Many Messianic congregations are run by Gentiles. If you've been here long enough you will remember Pastor George, who is a Messianic minister, with accreditation from the CTOMC. They define themselves as such:



First Fruits of Zion which many here adhere to their teachings is run by a Messianic Gentile. T. Lancaster. I'm a Messianic Gentile

Here is one group for instance that has a completely different view of MJ

How The OMJRA Defines Messianic



This is the Messianic Judaism that those who are Hebrew Christians are fighting against, this was the Judaism of the early first century and some are trying to get back to.

As you can see if you read this and followed the few links I gave (there is much more) it is more diverse than some here are letting on.

This is an example of fringe organizations that have popped up over the last 10yrs or so. MJAA and UMJC range almost a hundred years of organization between them. They are the 'establishment' of Messianic Judaism. MJAA is almost 100yrs old, and UMJC is over 30.

<snip>

First off, Shimshon, pleas do not be offended that I snipped your post down, it's not my intend to discount what you have written; the point you made in that first paragraph speaks volumes and ties into what Lulav posted so well!

The best advice I can give to these observations is... "Get ready, this is only the beginning; and a fore-tast of things to come".

Like Lulav posted:

There are two MJ's really, and this is what happened in the first century, and one won out and called the others heretics. This same thing is happening here.

There were differences in the various "sects" of Judaism before the advent of the Messiah, there were divisions in the 1st. cent., and we see from all of the Ecumenical Councils, the Great Schism, all the wars, the divergence and divisions following Luther among the Reformed protestants, and of course, the various groups that are represented here in this forum. The realism of the situation is if we went to sleep for 25 years, then returned to CF the groups and denominations could look very different than they do today. Why? Differences.

What we have here, right now, is what God has given us to work with. What we are working with here, today , at this moment is what it is.

While we must always heed the lessons which history gives us, lest we commit the same errors, we must live with the result of what the past gives us as well. We can not hit the reset button and go back to day one; if we could we would give both Adam and Eve a wake up slap and a good talking to saying... "don't even think about it"; and while we were at it whack the head off of the serpent before he had the chance to utter a single word; but we can't. As much as we are the spiritual citizens of the eternal kingdom of God, we are also inhabitants of mortal bodies living within the bounds of our time, the present. Our temporal heritage is something that we all share, and therefore it's our responsibility to work within the bounds of time.

 

[Tishri1]

What we could do to differenciate... is mJ is messianic Jew and Mj is Messianic Judaism. So... mJ or Mj only can be clear.

its MJ messianic judaism

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Ditto....\

Though I do think it's noteworthy to see how it doesn't really seem that ANYBODY (regardless of what side they're on) is really staying within the sections made for all to interact with others having the same thoughts, just as it'd be of differing communities complaining of the other inteferring with their children/space when at the city park....and not realizing that they tend to bring it on themselves when they choose not to play with others within the local parks of their own neighborhoods/streets and go to larger ones since there's more activity. Some things just come with the territory---and as long as all of us keep choosing to make threads in the general forum called "Messianic Judaim", either there's going to be forced segregation akin to "colored fountains" /"white fountains only" and seperate space as they occurred in the South...or there's going to be the dynamic of intergration of differing groups that disagree on a host of issues/learning to get along just like it occurrred in Southern history. Many times, others had to learn to get along if they were going to be in places that required them to share the same space...and while having their own spaces to talk amongst themselves/be with others of the same mind was good, there was the reality that either side trying to force the other to CONFORM to what it wanted in ALL Shared/Public spaces was not going to be effective. Either there was going to be all-out war..or peaceful/mutual dialouge...and for many, it was often the case that what caused the most trouble was pride. Each side wanting to have their own way, but only seeing the other do the same things they themselves did on certain occassions.

May we learn some lessons from the past. IMHO, seperate forums are a good idea/have worked---but just trying to keep everyone on their own side of the sandbox isn't going to address the larger issue that many of us simply DO NOT KNOW how to get along with those who are different than us. Many times, IMHO, it has seemed like people don't even know how to talk to one another considerately--and then when others respond or react, there's a fight and the assumption is "Well, we just need to part ways!!!!" rather than stepping back....and seeing how/where it was that basic skills of communication could've been developed. Being on other forums, this has often been something that has come up whenever it seems that people may spend more time talking AT one another rather than WITH one another in dialouge---and in sharing the same spaces, they don't know how to disagree on things AGREEABLY and be cordial.

I know I don't speak for all others..but personally, I think things could work in this scenario: Someone wants to discuss with others who may be Torah-Observant as they are....and a tag is made to indicate only those with the same mindsets are invited. Disagreements may occur within that thread, but they may be held to a minimum and it's generally "YES " men/women supporting one another...and the same dynamic can be done with other diversities of thought on the forum. However, for those who choose to come into the MAIN Forum that is not limited to one camp and they are open others with differing views coming in, what can make the conversation work is when others simply learn how to listen/interact according to James 3:13-18 or what Proverbs often notes when it comes to guarding our words. Other forums have had such success, including those beyond the scope of "CHRISTIAN Forums"---be it with Christians talking to Non-Christians on issues or with believers of differing camps coming together and sharing their own unique experiences for the sake of learning. This is the way it's done in the classroom of many professors and students--and I hope the same could happen here.

A Tag alone may not be necessary (nor other forums) to maintain peace/find ways to get along if there's not a concern on trying to make anyone agree with us in order for us to still love and learn from them. My saying this may be due to my own multicultural/multi-religious background where others from all camps were forced to be in limited spaces and look for ways to interact.....and it was a blast, even when I may've sharply disagreed with another.

Seriously, do I need a tag or another forum to talk with one who may differ sharply when it comes to things we can ALL find agreement on like sports, raising family/kids, sharing things we need prayer for, movies we enjoyed or things common to everyday life?? Do I need a tag in order to laugh with someone who may be in a camp I don't agree with? ANyone who has neighbors (as do we all) has to understand that they may go to places/things you may disagree with--and thus, the entire reason why there's seperation---yet that doesn't mean you can't come together on the block and find common ground. As you all live/interact in the same neighborhood, there's absolutely no reason as to why there needs to be a "cold war" of sorts. There's a way to talk with your neighbors in the morning when you take out the trash or..as what occurred in the old school...actually INVITE those different from you over to have a conversation since love/being Good Samaritans to one another (Luke 10:25-39) entailed that interaction not be based on agreement alone when it comes to helping one another. And if it can happen within that context, \why does it seem so difficult for all of us to do the same thing here?

Sometimes, it seems the the ways many of us interact with others are small....and I actually think it can be dishonorable to the Lord in how we can react to one another But again, that's just me based on what I've seen in the scriptures.

If a specifc tag is to be used, again, I don't knock it. I just think it may need to be examined more fully. Going back to the analogy of what occurred in the South, within that era, there was mixture and others had to learn how to interact by seeing where the other was coming from---and a label alone couldn't define someone fully since they often meant different things depending on the context. Not everyone, for example, who belonged to the Black Panthers was automatically against all others who were white...and not everyone saying they were militant meant that they were for terrorizing all people within a group (as some militants were), nor was it the case that all people saying they were for peaceful resistance/boycotting meant that they didn't have racist tendencies toward others outside of the "black vs white" spectrum...as even other groups outside of Black/White ethnicity faced stereotyping and deragatory comments by others within a camp.



Likewise, not everyone using a term needs to be pegged in ..nor do I think having a label alone will solve all things fully if there's not in-depth explanation. The labeling of tags on what specifc type of group is invited to discuss (i.e. "Torah Observant") can work, but as the very term means DIFFERENTLY to so many groups just like the term "Hebrew Christian" (which others often refer to one being for Hebrew Roots), there needs to be more explanation given in a tag (or a disclaimer) given on what type of TO they may be, just as it'd be with someone saying they believe in "Grace-Filled Torah Observance" as opposed to Torah observance being seen in the sense of legalism or adhering to all things within the Mosaic code.

"Grace filled" Torah observance, if wanting to see what it is all about, can be seen in the apostle Paul----for he spoke and wrote proudly that he is, not was, a Pharisee (Acts 23:6; Phil. 3:5), yet his understanding of the Kingdom of Christ/its principles helped him to appreciate the Old with the New. It is why it was clear from text that he felt the OT had principles to learn from it in the multiple times he referenced it—-whether in 1 Corinthians 10:1-13 in citing the examples of the failures of the Israelites with sexual immorality/grumbling and saying they happened as OUR EXAMPLES/WARNINGS for us today….or in his citing of Deuteronomy 25:3-5 when it came to Church Planters in 1 Corinthians 9:8-10/ 1 Corinthians 9 (and also, 1 Timothy 5:17-19 ) concerning supporting.

The same goes for Paul in his referencing/citing Exodus 16:17-19 in regards to gathering when he spoke on being a generous giver in 2 Corinthians 8:14-16. Add to that 2 Corinthians 4:12-14 when he referenced Psalm 116:10. Dozens of other examples besides this, as well as plenty of scholary books/references on the issue of how those within the first 3 centuries of the Church actually referenced the examples of the saints for Church Practice/Encouragement.

He made clear he did nothing against the Law ( Acts 25:7-9, Acts 24:13-15 , Acts 28:22-24 )--with his teachings making others zealous for the Law ( Acts 21:19-21, Acts 21:23-25, etc)---yet within that, He never sought to make it out as if Gentiles were bound to keep all of the codes of the Mosaic Law at all....and even he was willing to do whatever it took to reach them/be all things to all people (I Corinthians 9), within the boundaries God gave them. He understood, as Romans 2 indicates, that even the Gentiles/those without law become a law unto themselves and live out many of the things the Law requires---and thus, its why He later went on in Romans 13 to discuss how love fulfills the requirements of the Law and has always done so.




The people at Rosh Pina Project have done some excellent work on discussing that very issue, as seen here:

• Torah | - The Rosh Pina Project

• "The Law of Messiah « The Rosh Pina Project (an alternative look at Messianic Jews)"

• "Antinomian Theology Within The TOM-J Movement « The Rosh Pina Project (an alternative look at Messianic Jews)" ( )

Thank you for your observations, thoughts, and the references that you provided, both Biblical and the links as well. You have reflected many of my thoughts, and those of many here!

Standing with you in agreement to what it is that you noted and thank you for taking the time. It is a tremendous blessing and I so appreciate your desire to reflect Christ when he said "Blessed are the Peacemakers" (Matthew 5).

I thank you again for your comments, I am unworthy, it is you and the others here who are doing all the work, guided by the hand of God!