[Open] tags-a read and respond thread for all

[MarkRohfrietsch]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7537974/

does that sound clear enough for us?

thoughts?

Note about the MJ-only tag and its use:
A tag to identify "MJ-only threads" was designed to help MJ's answer or contribute replies to discussions for them or addressed to them alone. Please respect the MJ tag and enter those threads only if you are MJ attending an MJ congregation or practicing MJ at home

Looks good to me.

 

[visionary]

Looks good to me.

Ok.. you tell me which MJ... Messianic Judaism or a Messianic Jew? both claim to be MJ in this area of the forum.

 

[yedida]

And just like there are gentiles following Messianic Judaism, there are Messianic Jews who don't. This gets very confusing....

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Ok.. you tell me which MJ... Messianic Judaism or a Messianic Jew? both claim to be MJ in this area of the forum.

And just like there are gentiles following Messianic Judaism, there are Messianic Jews who don't. This gets very confusing....

Please bear with me if I'm over simplifying in my trying to understand...

• The issue here is that there are those who are born Jews who now have faith in the Messiah who no longer observe Jewish traditions regarding the Law, but have a degree of understanding regarding that part of their heritage: One group.

• There are also those who were not born Jewish and have not converted to Judaism, have faith in the Messiah, and by that faith are motivated to keep Jewish traditions regarding the law: Another group.

What do these two groups have in common?

1. Faith in the Messiah.
2. An understanding of Jewish traditions regarding the Law (some to a greater, some to a lesser extent, but still, a degree of understanding).

It seems from where I'm sitting that both of those groups (and myself, being an outsider even) all have the most important thing in common; point 1.


Those groups also share point 2.


Just those two points cover a lot of common ground when it comes to fellowship and even discussion. Is there more that I'm missing here?

 

[Shimshon]

Just those two points cover a lot of common ground when it comes to fellowship and even discussion. Is there more that I'm missing here?

Yes, very much.

Your going to have to help me understand how we can be equated as 'one' when one says we are saved to do works that the Spirit is leading us into in the places we are. Which is the Christian understanding of why we were saved. To live a life holy to God through the Spirit living in us. This is the goal of our life now, here in this place. Which is the Christian understanding of why were were saved.

Your going to have to help me find anywhere in the bible that teaches that the Spirit was given by grace to all who believe so that we may be lead to follow the law given Moshe to Yisrael.

The standard proclamation from group 2 is that we are lead by the Spirit into Torah observance. We are lead to observe as best we can the laws given at Sinai. You and all the world are called to this through the Spirit that Yeshua sent to guide us. It guides us into Torah observance. Jew and Gentile alike. In fact, Gentiles were set free from something they were never 'under' to begin with. The curse of the Torah. Now they, YOU are commanded, yes commanded to observed the laws God spoke at Sinai, an eternal covenant that will be given to all the world.

Show me where that is even remotely mentioned out of Yeshua's mouth, or even implied. YOu can't because I continually post scripture that proves quite opposite. This viewpoint of theirs is not even a Christian perspective. Yet, because they profess faith in Messiah we are to be joined at the hip?

Not fair. Why don't you pull in the SDA here too. I mean, we have Messiah in common, and the feasts.

Yes, I think you miss quite a bit, even if you are able to identify the two groups you still have yet to understand the viewpoint of Jews like contra and me, I beleive. Which is that group 2 has an anti-christian, anti-bible belief. They reject the authority of the Church, and of the word Yeshua spoke in regards to the authority given the apostles. They cling to Judaism and reject most everything Christian BUT Messiah. They do not consider themselves Christian half the time if at all. Help me understand why a group is allowed to be married to another when this is the case? Or even be allowed to exist in a 'Christian' forum in the capacity they have in the first place.

Group 2 insists that the gospel message is we are all saved and indwelt with the Spirit, which works in us and motivates us to do the works of the law, and be Torah observant according to the commands God spoke at Sinai.

I will let Visionary speak for this group since she is the most vocal and prolific of the group in regards to this.

The subject of the counsel was how much observance must the Gentiles do to attend the synagogue to learn more.

Why do you keep thinking that the law is a requirement of salvation?? In the parchments of Moses is the plan of redemption laid out and that which Paul and Yeshua plus the rest of the apostles pointed to.

Torah observant Gentiles are the stated identity of Messianic Judaism and it is very Christian.

Group 1 insists that the gospel message is we ae all saved and indwellt with the Spirit, to proclaim the good news about Yeshua.

I will step foward here and speak for group 1.

18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inthe name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Teach all nations in the world as I have taught you.

Yeshua himself instructed the gentiles through the apostles to observe all that he had commanded.

1 In the first book, O 1Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began 2to do and teach, 2 until the day when 3he was taken up, after he 4had given commands 5through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.

Yeshua gave commands through the Spirit to the to the apostles.

Here is what Peter stated Yeshua commanded him.

42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

He commanded the apostles to preach and testify that Yeshua is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead, he is God in the flesh.

Nowhere does it state they were commanded to teach the nations to follow the Torah as given at Sinai, as Jews.

Now, If I have misrepresented either group I would always appreciate someone stepping foward and set the record straight.

So, if your suggestion is that we should all just get along. I hope your up for a continued large report load from this forum. Or to ban all of us as we go down in flames.

Because just as the Rabbincal Jews come in here to make sure nothing is being misrepresented in regards to their faith. Messianic Jews like contra and myself would more than likely continue to come in here to make sure nothing is being misrepresented in regards to our Messianic Judaism.

Can you not see the glaring difference between that which group 1 declares as the testimony and witness of Yeshua and his Apostles, and group 2's testimonyand witness of the same thing? Would you really cause two such divergent faith's to dwell under one roof and expect them to not be at odds with each other? Our very statement of faith states that we are part of the whole of Christianity. But group 2 rejects this at every breath to identify as Jews who are Torah observant. And not one of them I know of was even raised in Judaism, all state they found a Jewish relative, or it's their right to follow the commands of God because they were given them. But they want the title Messianic "Judaism". Then, when pressed with this fact, they threaten to have the term Judaism removed from the place because it's (your) not 'REALLY JEWISH!!!"

And forgive me, because THAT is my button.

Shalom

 

[yedida]

Mark,
I will kindly step down and let Shimshon have his forum I have never said the things he claims, shoot, most of the time he's not even around. (Seems very strange that everytime he has shown up someone gets into trouble and then he disappears again.
But I will not stay where I'm not wanted, so kindly cancel my account. Thanks

 

[Shimshon]

Mark,
I will kindly step down and let Shimshon have his forum I have never said the things he claims, shoot, most of the time he's not even around. (Seems very strange that everytime he has shown up someone gets into trouble and then he disappears again.
But I will not stay where I'm not wanted, so kindly cancel my account. Thanks

Why don't you address the issue/scripture instead of attack the person? I don't know if you saw my response in the other thread, though you did. But here:

I HAD NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE BANNING OF YONAH.

In fact, right before he got banned I found a fondness for his presence. So I too am very bummed and upset about his permenant banning.

Again, address the issue. Not me. Even Yonah is trying to teach you this.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

You know, in all of the forums here, members are forbidden to state or imply that another Christian is "not Christian" or is "less of a Christian". As far a Christian Forums is concerned a "major" Christian denomination is no more Christian than a small group who meet in a "house Church".

I think we all need to realize that just as in main-stream Christianity (what ever that is) there are many diversities, just as there are many diversities within the MJ community; no doubt there are also many diversities within the "major" MJ communities as well.

IMHO, it should never be the "point" for Christianity to absorb and obliterate all diversity of opinion, but rather we can have unity within that diversity: by realizing that our unity doesn't come from uniformity, but from a shared experience under the crucified and risen Messiah:

There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
-Ephesians 4.4-6
​

You know that you may be interested in hitting up one of my brothers in the Lord named Lionel Woods---as he's one of my dear brothers in the Lord and I've dialouged with him on a myriad of occasions. We're vastly different theologically and yet we love one another deeply in the Lord and are pretty much on the same page when it comes to trying to keep the main thing the main thing. And as he said best in Lowest Common Denominator: A Case For An Ecumenical Hope ( ):

One of my favorite subjects in school was Math! I loved it, the numbers came easy, I used to be in the little math contest in school and actually was allowed to participate in a special program in 7th and 8th grades in which I went to a special school for math and took the SAT for placement in a special program in high school. I did well in Jr. High, but if you look at my testimony, well high school didn’t go to well and I was later removed! Anyway, back in 3rd, 4th grade we learned Common Denominators. The objective was this to find out what a group of numbers had in common. Such as in the picture above you want to find a multiple that you can divide a group of numbers into and the objective is to find the lowest possible number: 2,3,4,6=12!

You probably know by now and by the title that 4th grade math is not my objective in this post. So what is? Let me ask how often do you ask the following questions “what’s your eschatology, what’s your polity, what do you believe about the gifts, what’s your position on baptism, is it a Covenant of Grace or Works (neither LOL), Calvinism? Arminian?, Southern Baptist or Methodist? Emerging or Pentecostalism?

At our Sunday Morning group we have been studying through Corinthians. After reading and rereading the book and attempting to Chart the book (charting is a way to summarize a book, I will attempt to attach something at the bottom) and get a one theme title I came up with”A Peace Treaty of Love”. The protagonist and antagonist of the book of Corinth is division and unity!

There is but one church in all of Corinth or at least this is what many commentators say. So as you read the book all of this is going on “Under One Roof”! The apostolic alignment, the secret knowledge, the dude with his stepmother (some wanted to extend grace others knew there was a problem), there is division on head coverings, division at the Table where unity is the focus, there is division on gifts, there is division on tongues, there is division on silence on women, there is division on the resurrection and there is division on baptism for the dead. To put it simply Paul asks “Is Christ Divided” (which I believe to be a key to the entire epistle).


Chapter 13 is Paul’s resolution. Again remember all of this is happening in one gathering. If this is true, this would make a church split look like a wedding! So what is Paul’s remedy? To show that we are Christ’s body (Chapter 12) which answers the question “Is Christ divided” and without love (Chapter 13) EVERYTHING we do is “worthless” as a matter of fact he says “your are no one”! So we can do a bunch of nothing and do it with all of our energy, we can do it and be labeled successful in this world, you can be invited to conferences, can write hundreds of books, can exposit the text with surgeon like precision but without love you are nothing and what you do profits nothing.
So let me add to that!

Schisms/Divisions/Divisiveness (Galatians 5)/Sectarianism all are the opposite of love! So can our energized pursuit of exclusiveness or spiritualcentricity actually be what Paul calls “nothing”?! Absolutely. Let me say this. To look for something to divide on, to find ways where we are different (for the reason to disengage) to have the heart to deal with who Christ has redeemed indifferently to continually have a sectarian all or nothing Christianity is to be outside of the Spirit of God. It is to grieve the Spirit, it is to answer Paul’s question to the Corinths “is Christ divided” with an emphatic yes! Yes, yes Paul we are divided and we are proud of it!

Paul says something that is another key to unity in 1 Corinthians 15 where I want to rest at:

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.


​

Unity is found in the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ! That He was born, that He died for our sins and that He rose from the dead and upon raising appeared to the disciples and later to Paul. This is our Gospel the one and only Gospel. Those other distinctive, as biblical as you think they may be are contrary to Paul’s Gospel! Yes you heard me correctly. So let me scream it. YOUR DISTINCTIVES ARE CONTRARY TO PAUL’S GOSPEL! Why? Paul’s Gospel unifies because Christ unifies (Col 3, Eph 2, John 17). Christ came that we may be one, our disctintives split us! If disunity comes by them then what we are doing is not of God regardless of how well you can defend it biblically (truth be told we both can come to the same scriptures and be 100% divided on the same text using languages or not).

I am fighting for an Ecumenical hope! Yes, you may be convinced that your little theological club is correct (shoot I do) but if that club becomes exclusive and becomes THE CLUB then what you have done is taking a machete to Christ’s body. You have divided the indivisible Christ! You have pulled the arm of Jesus off and I will let you know that such a division is of Satan not of the Living and Holy God revealed in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

I close with this. Christ is not divided because He is indivisable! He is one “there is one Lord, one Faith, one baptism” Ephesians 4 makes this clear! Jesus only made “one new man” Jesus does not endorse any dividing walls! Jesus does not cosign our zeal to divide and to “uphold truth” (don’t go quoting John 14:6). Jesus’ prayer proves this beyond a shadow of doubt “I pray that they are one”. Who are we to counteract Jesus??!! Paul also makes a plea in the Philippian Church in chapter 2 verse one. I leave you with this verse of “one accordness”! Being Ecumenical is the heart of Jesus Christ and divisiveness is of the “Evil one”!

2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.


​

Pray that it blessed you, Brah....

Often, it seems that in everywhere else but the West there seems to be a desire for Unity---but that may be due to how the circumstances are radically different than in the West where we're often given so much room to disagree that we don't care to actually discuss/focus on keeping the main thing the main thing and learning how to Glorify Christ and the Centrality of the Gospel.

Conversation that leads toward Biblical Unity seems to often happen under strict circumstances. And As my dear brother in the Lord said best, from his site entitled Agonizing Over Church Membership/Fellowship ( )

I have a theory. Or should I say a premise? The theory or premise is that persecution eliminates or, at the very least, diminishes division in the body of Christ.

Let’s say that tomorrow it was declared that all U.S. citizens who professed to be Christians had to report to the nearest major sports facility (coliseum, remember the one in Rome in the first century?) to be interviewed by the government. Let’s say that the ones who did not report were turned in by those who knew that they professed to be Christians and then were rounded up by law enforcement. So let’s take it for granted that they got all professing Christians together in each individual county. Let’s say that the initial interview consisted of threats of death if you held true to your faith. Now let’s assume that every member of every group which is considered a cult group refused to affirm Christ as Savior and Lord and escaped. So after days of interviews, everyone who held firm ends up on their respective areas’ football field, baseball diamond or basketball court. Now let me ask a few questions:

1. Would there only be Calvinist there? Only Arminians? Or how about only Cessasionist? Or only Charismatics? Or only Trinitarians? Or only Oneness?

2. Would we be surprised to see that brother or sister who holds that other position there? If so, would you believe that their martydom meant absolutely nothing because they believed in tithing? or baptized babies? or thought they chose Christ?

3. Would there be any theological debates going on? Or would anybody be preaching an ”Are you sure your saved” sermon?

4. Would we clique up in our groups that day? Would we care so dearly about our denominational distinctives? Would the blacks be only with the blacks and the whites only with the whites and so on?

5. If that brother or sister standing near you began to pray and suddenly broke out in tongues, would you move away? Or would you join hands with them and just pray the way you pray?

6. If they allowed us to have our bibles (a miracle it would be in itself) would we argue over which version was the correct one?

7. Would anyone be monitoring what another had on?

8. WOULD WE HAVE UNPRECEDENTED AND UNPREJUDICED FELLOWSHIP WITH ONE ANOTHER?
I believe we would. And that is my point. How can all of these things suddenly be a non-issue in the face of death? How is it that all I would suddenly be able to see in you is another brother or sister in Christ? There would be no interviews to see if you would affirm some ancient creed or confession, would there? We would be encouraging one another to stand firm in the face of death while we anticipate the joy of seeing our Saviour face-to-face!
​

Why can’t this happen every Sunday while we’re safe and sound? Why can’t a brother who is not a 5 point Calvinist stand and give an exhortation in your church (Dr. White or you who are reading this)? Why can’t he be a member of your church? Is it because it’s more your church than Christ’?

Somebody needs to help me with this dilemna. What am I missing here?
​

__________________



​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

• The issue here is that there are those who are born Jews who now have faith in the Messiah who no longer observe Jewish traditions regarding the Law, but have a degree of understanding regarding that part of their heritage: One group.

• There are also those who were not born Jewish and have not converted to Judaism, have faith in the Messiah, and by that faith are motivated to keep Jewish traditions regarding the law: Another group.

What do these two groups have in common?

1. Faith in the Messiah.
2. An understanding of Jewish traditions regarding the Law (some to a greater, some to a lesser extent, but still, a degree of understanding).

It seems from where I'm sitting that both of those groups (and myself, being an outsider even) all have the most important thing in common; point 1.


Those groups also share point 2.


Just those two points cover a lot of common ground when it comes to fellowship and even discussion. Is there more that I'm missing here?

If I may say

I think the issue that often can be a bit confusing by many is that the terms used are often injected with so many differing meanings. Thus, for the two groups mentioned, one side can understand how "Torah Observance" may mean one desires to live by the Torah as muh as possible....whereas another sees it in the sense that one MUST live by it in order to achieve salvation or show that one is truly saved/sanctified by the Lord Jesus. Whereas the former group claiming "Torah Observance" can live in harmony with another that says Torah is apart of their heritage and is to be appreciated rather than fully submitted to, the other one is within the realm of trying to be justified by something that the Torah itself says was never meant to bring salvation...and within that comes the other issues you/others have sought to deal with as it concerns the RABID "Anti-Paul" because of their viewpoint that Paul's focus on GRACE moreso than Law is not what the Torah would ever support. From what I've seen, it seems the attempt by youself/other moderators is one done within the viewpoint that those claiming "Torah Observance" (Group 2) may simply wish to live their own lives as much as possible by what they see.....and if that is the case, I don't know why so many have any issue with what you/Tish and others have tried to do. As the very statement of purpose for the forum makes clear, those who are Messianic are for Torah observance---but that observance is not done without seeing the BLOOD of Jesus that makes us clear...and as Tish has often made clear, there are various degrees. Whereas some are zealous for doing Torah observance, they tell others of Yeshua/Torah observance in the sense that places like "First Fruits of Zion" do when it comnes to their view of a "Divine Invitation" to do things a certain way rather than saying it's MANDATORY for all others to try so....counter to what Acts 15 and many other passages discuss.

Sometimes, it's indeed the case that confusion can come from semantics and not realizing the extent of what Messianic Judaism includes or how certain camps may use the same terms in differing ways. Some of this was discussed more in-depth Here, here and here (in regards to those Messianics Jews or Gentiles who may be involved in other parts of the Church/Christianity like Catholicism and Orthodoxy)..and also here in #50 #52 /#55

Because others claim terminology used by many Messianics who'd work well with Christianity (always have) and yet the meaning behind what they say is often RADICALLY different from what Mainstream Messianic Judaism holds to, it can create conflict where there needs to be none since others will often speak past each other..and even when all are on the same page, those who are different than the characterization you placed for the two groups still seem to be jammed together under two categories.

By no mean am I saying that the desire for Unity between the two groups is a negative....and even for those who seem to be extreme in some of their views, I in no way think they're not within the category of being people whom others can fellowship with since others can have views that may be abberational (i.e. majoring on minors and vice versa) and yet they may still be within a camp---and as the Word calls us to witness in the way we treat one another (Colossians 3, Ephesians 4, etc), having a "turf" war is not necessary. As Paul noted in II Timothy 2:23-26 notes in dealing with bad teachings, there were those within fellowships who may've been off on views and yet there was a way to treat them that didn't require one to not walk in graciousness. For they were mislead on certain things, even though they were still believers.... And even with those who may not be "Messianic" in a Biblical mannner ...or not even saved, it doesn't mean one cannot treat others with respect yet discussing clear distinctions like Paul advocated Timothy to do ...and I admire your desire to do so.


Even Yeshua had to do the same, not coming into the scene and choosing to avoid fellowship with all other camps besides those agreeing with him. Jesus came into a context that was divided along lines/polarities like that what we can often see today with political parties (i.e. right vs left, religious right vs secular right, liberal left vs. Christian Left, Independent, Radical Middle, etc). Jews in the second temple period believed that God would act to rescue and restore Israel. The issue then became, “Who is True Israel?”, i.e., what do we do to demonstrate in the present that we are part of the community that God will rescue in the near future? Some of the answers came in these ways:

• Zealots, who believed that God wanted them to physically rise up against the oppressive tyrant of Roman occupation,
• Herodians/Sadduccees, who believed that God had sided with Rome, or that amassing political power within the Roman system was the way forward,
• Essenes, who advocated complete withdrawal from society,
• Pharisees, who scapegoated “the sinners” in society, believing that God would act to rescue Israel from the oppressors if they increased the morality of society by strict adherence to the Mosaic Law.

And so we arrive at Jesus. He steps in to this context, and I suggest that if we can’t make sense of Jesus within this context, we’re probably misunderstanding or limiting the meaning of his words and actions. Here’s what I see when I look at Jesus: he did not play into any of the competing narratives of the day, but subverted them all. He rejected violence (”Turn the other cheek&#8221, assimilation (”seek first the kingdom of God and his justice&#8221, withdrawal (”give to Caesar what is Caesar’s&#8221, and scapegoating (”let he who is without sin cast the first stone&#8221, in favor of a completely new way of being “true Israel” - through generosity, selflessness, embrace of “the other” (indeed even “the sinner”!) and care for the poor.


Of course, there were many things he quoted that came directly from the aformentioned camps---for the Lord was not against acknowledgement of truth in camp you may not fullu belong to. For he did not say things within a vaccum and the camps he fought against were often the same ones whom he'd support the next minute (As discussed here in #408 ). Nonetheless, as the Lord himself shared similarities with the other camps in Judaism of his day, he also chose to stand apart from them...creating a group that'd go against the norm.

When looking at the very group of disciples he chose from, they all came from a very diverse background--and this diversity was reflected within the very make-up of the early church. Seeing how even the people Christ chose as his inner circle were among those who came from DIFFERENT Camps of VASTLY DIFFERENT IDEOLOGIES--some who were against GOVERNMENTS and others that were all for it, as seen when HE simultaneouly chose both ZEALOTS and TAX-Collectors to be apart of His inner circle---despite how BOTH sides had significant issue with the other, with Zealots wishing to overthrow Rome and feeling as if Tax-Collectors had "Sold out"...

Luke 6
​

The Twelve Apostles
​

12One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. 13When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: 14Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, 15Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, 16Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.-Mark 3 /
Matthew 10

"
​

Matthew 9:9
[ The Calling of Matthew ] As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.
​

​

Of course, one must also factor in the Pharisees who were divided because of him in John 7 and how many followed him in that camp as well, such as Nicodemus and Josephus. I think it's very much intentional that the gospel writers portray Jesus' disciples as backstabbing, betraying, cowardly, dense, poor, uneducated, blue-collar, "terrorist" (as in, plotting against the government), criminal (as in, stealing from people in the name of the government)...and that they didn't always agree with each other.

Just another example of unity within diversity/disagreement.


In regards to the issue of having unity within Diversity, Simon the Zealot is someone who stands out on the issue (IMHO). Simon was called a "Zealot" in his lifestyle before ministry with Jesus, probably a member of the Zealot party, which was a party determined to overthrow Roman Domination in Palestine. Interestingly enough, the "Zealot" term is still used for the man AFTER Christ rose from the Grave Acts 1:13, Acts 1:12-14 Acts 1 .IMHO, it gives room to indicate that even after being in the midst of Jesus, that which he may have been known for was probably with him to one degree or another---such as still possibly wishing for Rome to be overthrown or having sympathies for those against Roman Oppression. When considering how the man died, some say he was martyred---whereas others say that he was involved in a Jewish revolt against the Romans, , which was brutally suppressed in A.D 70. If knowing of the work by Robert Eisenman (Eisenman 1997 pp 33-4), he pointed out the contemporary talmudic references to Zealots as kanna'im "but not really as a group — rather as avenging priests in the Temple." For more info, one can look up the work entitled James the Brother of Jesus : The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls. (Viking Penguin). But on Simon, when Jesus called him, nowhere is there sign that there was an immediate change over night..especially considering how often they argued amongst themselves...

By all logical means, things SHOULD HAVE FAILED with the group of men He chose to work together/form the core of his leadership. But again, it's very much intentional that the gospel writers portray Jesus' disciples as acting in a MYRIAD of ways----yet they had to learn how to work with one another in order for Kingdom Power to be demonstrate. Praying for the day when that can be shown across the boards in the Body of Christ---especially here on the forums.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

• The issue here is that there are those who are born Jews who now have faith in the Messiah who no longer observe Jewish traditions regarding the Law, but have a degree of understanding regarding that part of their heritage: One group.

• There are also those who were not born Jewish and have not converted to Judaism, have faith in the Messiah, and by that faith are motivated to keep Jewish traditions regarding the law: Another group.

What do these two groups have in common?

1. Faith in the Messiah.
2. An understanding of Jewish traditions regarding the Law (some to a greater, some to a lesser extent, but still, a degree of understanding).

It seems from where I'm sitting that both of those groups (and myself, being an outsider even) all have the most important thing in common; point 1.



Those groups also share point 2.


Just those two points cover a lot of common ground when it comes to fellowship and even discussion. Is there more that I'm missing here?

If Ephesians 4 stands clear and the WORD OF God is true that the BRIDE will be made ready for the coming of the Lord, then I'm pretty certain that UNITY will come at some point...even when it doesn't seem apparent. For the two groups you noted, I think this is possible to a certain degree.

However, I don't think that the unity will be achieved through centralization. Rather, I believe in a unity within the very decentralization - a unity that respects the differences involved in the various Christian traditions. There's a dual danger inherent in some ecumenical efforts - on one hand, a sort of Lowest Common Denominator spirituality, which becomes a mushy, feel-good, I'm-OK-you're-OK thing (which, BTW, is what I think what many are often really fighting against), and on the other hand, a domineering, my-way-or-the-highway, authoritarian version which seeks to stamp out all dissonance.

There is a "third way" possible - or as John Wimber, founder of Vineyard, put it, a Radical Middle....but here, it seems that there's more of a focus by the mods in trying to establish an ecumenical perspective amongst the two groups that you noticed. And on the issue of the dual nature of ecumenical efforts, for more info, There's the one side that ignores the scriptures concerning deadly heresies/concepts that're destroying the Work of Christ and concepts in the Word that're ABSOLUTE TRUTHS not to be tampered with (i.e. "I can be saved and still practice sexual immorality without repentance", or "Anyone can be a Christian--including those who say Jesus is not the Only Way to Salvation.."). For there're some things that're simply not for debate


And others such as Brother Contra have noted some of the things which many have often missed on the essential nature of who the Lord Jesus is.

Though on the other side, there's also the realities of what occurs when Unity is seen in the sense of Conformity/being made to obey and go with "Group-Think"...or the other form of "What the people say is truth is what determines what is real or not"....and as the old saying goes, "Three men make a tiger" (Chinese: 三人成虎 ; Pinyin: sān rén chéng h&#468 . It's as a Chinese proverb or four-character idiom referring to the idea that if an unfounded premise or urban legend is mentioned and repeated by many individuals, the premise will be erroneously accepted as the truth...and this concept is analogous to communal reinforcement or the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad populum or appeal to the people Speaking of truth claims, one example is how most of the religious world once believed that the world was flat----and that was apart of even Christian Thought, with the majority condeming those disagreeing as unbiblical until others found different. Same happened with others like Gallieo or others who believed that the Sun didn't revolve around the Earth...and many religious people shunned him, including those who were Religious Authorities and saying science/philosophy for God cannot go together--until that was proven otherwise as well. Many times, there's more than enough Biblical warrant for one to say that they disagree (and yet disagree respectfully) without those in a majority assuming that disagreement equates to chaos.


In the event that I'm not making sense in what I'm trying to convey when it comes to groups having problems....I Hate to go to the TV for my reference, but I'm a HUGE STAR-TREK Fan....and seeing the dynamics of the show helps me in putting things together on some of the issues we see here. Two species from that show come to mind....

Consider the concept of a "Borg"---as that's the way I've always approached it, with plenty of times it being where the goal was to "assimilate" for the sake of "perfection"., though they did so by FORCE/USING UNITY in a CONTROLLING MANNER and taking unique traits from various cultures that they wanted for their own and combined them together for their own benefit. However, they did not allow any individuality in the process of benefiting off of the unique traits since it was for the sake of the whole and not the indiviual that they existed---and in many respects, as they destroyed other traits from species they deemed wrong, they actually were not for preserving "Unique" beings since they did not preserve them as they were. There was still an agenda--and the only way to keep it going was to destroy conscience thought and have men be under the sway of the many voices of "The Collective".
Powerful indeed---but a "living death"...

.​

The other species to consider is the Founders (Changelings) and what was seen in DS9 with "The Dominion", as they sought to maintain control/subdue that which is "different" than the norm (despite the same happening to them previously when they were persecuted by "Solids" for being different---thus, reacting by believing "What you can control cannot hurt you" and..imposing their version of "order" on others, even those who used to persecute them & fearfully keeping their own race from acknowledging criticisms/siding with the "solids" on the other side or realizing how much they had become that which they hated. Of course, Diversity was allowed in their Empire--but no Diversity that ever challenged the Goals of the Collective, much like living on a block and having a local gang enact a protection racket whereby a powerful entity or individual coerces other less powerful entities or individuals to pay protection money which allegedly serves to purchase protection services against various external threats....giving the illusion of freedom to be indiviual/do as you please but keeping one in line through fear.

The Dominion is, essentially, the anti-Federation. Ruled by the shape-shifting Founders and seen as a collection of alien races, all hell-bent on taking over the known universe...when the Dominion makes its way to the Alpha Quandrant and faces off against the Federation, what results is an interplanetary war that threatens to destroy the entire galaxy..and all of it began because of the desire for FORCED unity...and more specifically, the root behind all of that was FEAR.

Whereas the Borg assimilated others due to mistakenly thinking that they alone in their experiences/views were "perfect" (even though they weren't), the Dominion was built aggressively forced others to agree because their entire culture was centered entirely upon FEAR of what was different...as the Dominion, created by the Founders, is built entirely on xenophobia...with the Founders' main aim being based on bringing their style of order to what they see as the chaotic nature of solids throughout the universe

In trying to find ways in which all of the Messianics here can at least co-exist peacefully ( Hebrews 12:13-15, Romans 12:18, James 3:13-18, Matthew 5:9, Luke 6:27-36, etc), it is my hope that we do not become like Borg culturally in choosing to force conformity, supresses individuality, and punish team members who express different points of views...as opposed to truly helping others in promoting a a shared set of values and speaking respectfully even in differences.....and it is also my hope we don't act like the Dominion in choosing to threaten others to agree with us/desire all to think alike simply because we had bad experiences that caused people to be paranoid toward any divergent opinion.....almost in the same way that others can have xenophobia (or be isolationist) and end up reacting badly toward anything that REMOTELY sounds similar to how another culture they had bad relations with MIGHT have said it....and this is said in light of what was said with before where even words/phrases are seen within the sense of "key words" that others automatically assume a negative meaning behind (i.e. Torah Observant, "Lawlessness", "Hebrew Roots", "Two House", "One Law") just because they saw the same elsewhere...and then procedd to attack others rather than dealing with people on a case-by-case basis (as discussed more so here ).


Just some thoughts..and thanks again for all you do

 

[yedida]

Why don't you address the issue/scripture instead of attack the person? I don't know if you saw my response in the other thread, though you did. But here:

I HAD NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE BANNING OF YONAH.

In fact, right before he got banned I found a fondness for his presence. So I too am very bummed and upset about his permenant banning.

Again, address the issue. Not me. Even Yonah is trying to teach you this.

While I'm still active here, I wanted to openly apoogize. for making such a statement. I should never have said that. It was very childish and immature. I am sorry. I hope you will forgive me

 

[Shimshon]

bottom line, this is first a safe haven for MJs of all types and we want to keep it that way as much as possible

Please bear with me if I'm over simplifying in my trying to understand...

Please bear with me as I try to explain my point of view above/before. I appreciate very much the time and effort you put into not only this forums issue but i'm sure many others here. I can get passionate, but I've learned to stay focused on the issue/scripture rather than attack the person.

It seems from where I'm sitting that both of those groups (and myself, being an outsider even) all have the most important thing in common; point 1.


Those groups also share point 2.


Just those two points cover a lot of common ground when it comes to fellowship and even discussion. Is there more that I'm missing here?

Everything said, it seems that both you and tishri have the full intentions of having us all get along under one roof. If I read you both correctly. So I will not press it with you any longer.

Most here see division as a bad thing. Till they get a Christian in their thread, or a Jew, or a ...put your subject here...... Then they report and scream that the offender is out of place and line. And some get banned for it. But I guess this is the desired way to keep this place. As much as possible.

So if you need any clarification to my post above, I would be happy to give it. I will not pursue explaining the contrasts between the two groups here if it is your desires to have both live together. I just hope you realize, that I am the least of your problems. And, I would offer my service if I had the time. But my real-life ministry is far too time consuming to devote what would be needed here. I wish you well, and good luck.

 

[Shimshon]

While I'm still active here, I wanted to openly apoogize. for making such a statement. I should never have said that. It was very childish and immature. I am sorry. I hope you will forgive me

Joyfully forgiven!! God bless you!

 

[Shimshon]

I think I may have a winner here. What good will it do to have an MJ only tag when the real division lay between those in that group. The real issue is Torah obervance for gentiles. The whole of the argument is over who is supposed to be Torah observant and how Torah observant are you supposed to be......

SO!

Why not change the tag to TO only. Then the topic of Torah observance by Gentiles can be freely discussed without fear of being attacked by Christians OR Messianic Jews.

They may have their threads kept kosher and observant to their Messianic Way.

Now I fully realize this gag's my own witness in those threads. But for the love of unity that you all have here, would this not be the best solution?

TO Only..... And their community can be built. They already have a forum. And prayerfully may we both respect each others forums.

Would this not be the best solution?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Shimshon, Yedida, Easy G,

I love you all (and all of the others who have shared their thoughts here in this Forum) for the zeal that you have for your faith and your desire to express and share that faith; which is why we are here.

Likewise, I know that that since none here "lukewarm" like the Laodiceans in the Revelation of St. John 3:14-22, our Lord loves you all as well. Verses 15 and 16 elude to diversity within the one true faith; one cold refreshing and satisfying like a cold beer on a hot day (my heritage is German Lutheran so I like beer); the other hot and steamy like a cup of tea or coffee, equally satisfying (I enjoy those too); yet very different! It's lukewarm indifference that our Lord has taken issue with.

Yet within this diversity there is commonality as well; if we turn to the Gospels of St. Luke 9:20 and St. John 6:68,69, the confession of St. Peter in which we all share: "The Christ of God." and "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (NKJV).

Yedida, please stick around, we need you and I believe our Lord needs you to be here!

Believe me when I say that the last thing I desire is "warm and fuzzy", "happy-clappy" "Kum-bi-ya" "melting pot" ecumenism here or elsewhere in CF; we all know that this will not work in this life; and for me I see such as that "lukewarm" Christianity which our Lord condemns in Rev. 3:16.

As I have stated before, I see many parallels in this forum and my own Lutheran forum, Theologia Crucis. We have two very divergent groups there; The Confessional Lutherans who hold the Lutheran Confessions, that is, the 1580 edition of the Book of Concord as the true exposition and explanation of the doctrines and practice revealed to us in Scripture (us). The other Group, the Liberal Lutherans, who discount the BoC as a mere historical document.

Many of the "Confessionals" who hold the very catholic and orthodox (our opinion) theology of the BoC no longer view the "Liberals" being Lutheran, but see the retention of that label as being only a heritage thing in light of their adoption of a more "reformed protestant" ecumenical approach to doctrine and practice.

See the similarities?

Yes, in the past there was much strife and at times all out war between our two groups, but despite the diversity and our differences, we have found that we, through self discipline (and a bit of help on behalf or Staff), can coexist in relative peace in our common forum; yet we go our separate ways in our respective subfora.

It is my hope, my belief and my prayer that something similar may be achieved for all of you here as well!

May our Lord grant that through His Word, we may delight in His Will, and walk in His Ways, to the Glory of His Holy Name! Amen.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I think I may have a winner here. What good will it do to have an MJ only tag when the real division lay between those in that group. The real issue is Torah obervance for gentiles. The whole of the argument is over who is supposed to be Torah observant and how Torah observant are you supposed to be......

SO!

Why not change the tag to TO only. Then the topic of Torah observance by Gentiles can be freely discussed without fear of being attacked by Christians OR Messianic Jews.

They may have their threads kept kosher and observant to their Messianic Way.

Now I fully realize this gag's my own witness in those threads. But for the love of unity that you all have here, would this not be the best solution?

TO Only..... And their community can be built. They already have a forum. And prayerfully may we both respect each others forums.

Would this not be the best solution?

I'm inclined to agree; what do the others think?

BTW, I like your signature, it says so much with so few words!

Kol Moshiach כל משיח ~ In all things Messiah is everything!​

Humility is the beginning of ones relationship with God, or the reminder of it's existence.​

 

[visionary]

What we could do to differenciate... is mJ is messianic Jew and Mj is Messianic Judaism. So... mJ or Mj only can be clear.

 

[ContraMundum]

I'm with Shimshon on this.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What?!? yonah has been banned? I could say many words here for the people that banned him, but are better not said....


As for anti-Paul reports, I will never accept him and if this forum starts forcing him onto people than I will be no part of it. Likewise, I'm not a Christian and won't be.

What can I say but "WOW!"

You are still a Christian, but if that is truly your view of Paul, then perhaps CF should relegate those that share your view and contempt for Paul to the "Unorthodox Board", like the Mormon's and JW's. Just IMHO

 

[Shimshon]

And just like there are gentiles following Messianic Judaism, there are Messianic Jews who don't. This gets very confusing....

Yedida, I'm using your post not to pick on you but to use it for a point.

'gentiles following Messianic Judaism'

Messianic Judaism is defined as Jews who came to faith in Messiah/Christ. Some may not like how some of the Jews lean to far to the Christ side and some love the way some of the Jews lean way over to the Messiah(Jewish) side. But the movement is/was/should remain a movement of Jews who come to faith in Messiah. We have our ways of belief and worship, as we have come out of many different forms of 'Judaism'.

IMHO Gentiles can be called to serve right besides Jews in our 'synagouges', but they are not called to be us. They are known to have a very strong love for us and live as though they are us, BUT KNOW INSIDE that God made them just as saved and filled with the Spirit as us even though they are not Jews. Meaning they serve right besides and worship right besides, AS GENTILES.

But they have never been called to have our identity. They love our identity in God so much they live with and among us.

The lie comes when others, usually Gentiles, start to believe they were called to be considered Jews being called by God to be identified through the Torah given Moshe rather than the Torah given us all through Yeshua.

Where do I get all this? From the large body of world wide Jews who follow Messianic Judaism.

Its purpose is threefold:

To testify to the large and growing number of Jewish people who believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the promised Jewish Messiah and Savior of the world:

To bring together Jews and non-Jews who have a shared vision for Jewish revival; and
Most importantly, to introduce our Jewish brothers and sisters to the Jewish Messiah Yeshua.

As Jewish followers of Yeshua, we are called to maintain our Jewish biblical heritage and remain a part of our people Israel and the universal body of believers. This is part of our identity and a witness to the faithfulness of G-d.

As a movement for Yeshua within the house of Israel, we stand in solidarity with the larger Jewish community, including the state of Israel. We are committed to the continuity of the Jewish people and to participation in our common tradition.

The local congregation is foundational to Messianic Judaism. Therefore, we are committed to the success of our member congregations as places where Jewish people can encounter Yeshua as Messiah and live for him as Jews.

My point, the stated ministry and mission from two of the largest Messianic Jewish organizations in the world, having deep roots and ties in the Land, state nowhere about gentiles observing Torah as their focus. In fact it's not stated at all.

It's a movement of JEWS, about Jews who do not leave their Jewish heritage or worship for Church traditions, but continue to be Jewish in our love and observance to Yeshua and his commands.

What is put forth by many here in this forum is that Messianic Judaism is a Torah for Gentiles movement. That Gentiles can observe Messianic Judaism by following the Torah given Moshe. This is so far off from the statements of world wide Messianic Jews.

It's not about creating a second class citizen, that would be the devils thought. It's about letting a Jew be the Jew he was called and made, and letting Gentiles be the holy child of Abraham they were called to be. Male and Female, Jew and Gentile, One flesh. Has NOTHING to do with Gentiles being commanded to observe as Jews. Unless your talking about the commands Yeshua gave as the Word of God spoken in the flesh. Those we are commanded to follow as Torah.

With that said, I am all for unity and peace. But how peaceful do you think Orthodox Jews are in the existence of Messianic Jews? I think you know that answer. I see a mirror issue between us. The same way Rabbinical Jews do not believe Messianic's truly identify themselves as Jews. Messianic Jews do not believe Messianic Gentiles are truly identifying themselves in the proper way.

Who is a Jew.......will this never end? This is truly a sad thing. Especially when it shouldn't be at all. As our life in God through Yehsua has NOTHING to do with our Jewishness. sigh...oy.