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Featured Open letter to the church from millennial pastor - this is why we are leaving

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by mcarans, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. Sparagmos

    Sparagmos Well-Known Member

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    Then address the hypocrisy she describes, which is perhaps the largest reason I left the church. Everyone is publicly holier than thou and secretly sinning. I’m a minister’s daughter and my father led a double life for years. He was abusive and had a porn addiction. You’re also not addressing the history of the church, always being on the wrong side of moral issues like slavery and women’s rights. The church also participated in horrible antisemetism and looked the other way during the holocaust.
     
  2. Swan7

    Swan7 Made in the image of His Grace Supporter

    +7,125
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    I left the church I grew up in for very similar reasons. My dad and I were led to a different church and that worked out for our spiritual growth. That was while I was in Canada, now I’m in the US and can’t find a group to meet up with who are my husband’s age. It’s either singles or young adults. Hopefully and knowingly, God will lead us where we ought to be.

    Some of the comments in this thread are very telling... God will not be mocked: Galatians 6:6-9
    :yellowheart:
     
  3. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    General proposition for the thread: the Church doesn't need any of us. We need it.

    Is this a true statement or an untrue statement? I suspect that those of us who reject the take of the article in the OP would say it is true, while those of us who accept the article would say it is untrue.

    I think it is true, and so I have a very hard time entertaining the sort of thinking that is in the OP, and I will certainly never be giving it a pride of place over the Church and its apostles, disciples, scriptures, councils, synods, Creed, or any of the other things that actually form and inform the Christian life.

    But I'm interested in what people who are more receptive to it think. What is your conception of the Christian faith that any of what is in the OP actually sounds like a good thing?
     
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  4. Beanieboy

    Beanieboy Senior Veteran

    +1,063
    Christian
    Same.
    She offers reasons, a very constructive criticism, that one should at the very least reflect on, and ask oneself - am I being hypocritical? Am I mistreating my neighbor?

    The reaction?
    Mocking her
    Denying all of it
    Demanding scripture( for "loving your neighbor," including those who disagree with you? You slready know what they are, I hope.)

    At the very least, take it to God in prayer.

    A poster here begged me to leave homosexuality. I told her I have spoken to God about it endlessly since i was about 13 or 14, often crying myself to sleep with my prayers. And I still discuss it with Him. We're good.

    She insisted I pray again, address Father God of the Christian Faith, Jesus Christ his only begotten son, and The Holy Spirit. Despite being baptized in the HS at 18, she wanted me to believe I was praying to sone false God.

    I agreed, but asked if she would also pray and ask for a clearer understandibg on the issue. If she was corrected, she would walk a little closer, and I would be happy for her. If she was correct, it would confirm her walk.

    She outright refused. When I explained it was a win-win for her, she still refused, saying, "why should I???"

    It's always stuck with me: refusing to pray about something and ask the HS for guidance, insisting you are right. To this day, I still pray about the issue, and I am in my mid 50s. I would never assume that everything I believe is correct, and check in quite often with God. I just kept thinking, "what are you afraid of?"
    Asking me to do something she refused to do herself.
    Refusing to listen to anyone else's opinion, but demanding the other listen and follow it.

    If rejecting loving your neighbor as yourself, then whatever the church is is no longer Christianity, as they no longer follow Christ.
     
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  5. NeedyFollower

    NeedyFollower Well-Known Member

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    I think it is easy to be someone who loves people but hates God and all He represents while believing in Him . It is called humanism with a cloak of religion . In Romans it is stated as "worshipping the creature more than the creator ...it says more ...not instead of . Loving your neighbor is not packing them a nice lunch and filling up their car with gas as they head towards a cliff .
    American Christianity demands equal pay for both male and female pastors . Christ says pick up your cross and follow me . Equal pay ? Really ? Pay ? Pay ? No wonder Christianity in America is in the shape it is . We work to be successful ( make money) leaving no time except a day or two of the week to spend time with our Lord , then pay someone to bring us the word of God . The gospel is about God for man ...Not about man for God . Subtle difference but the enemy of the truth is always subtle . The whole world was destroyed once except 8 people . God is a God of love but His love says " Turn around , why will ye perish ? "
    Remember this line from Jesus . " Get thee behind me satan , you are a stumbling block . for thou savorist not the things that be of God , but of MAN . Our common enemy is a humanist . Man worship is man worship with or without religious garb . Man centered religion woos the crowd and says God loves you . No turning needed . No repentance . Jesus said , unless you repent , ye shall likewise perish . Why was Jesus so hard ? Because He did actually love His neighbor and they must hear the truth .
     
  6. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,489
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    There are wrong things that should not be a right.

    But there are things which really are wrong with church people.

    Jesus could have stayed in Heaven, because of our sin and hypocrisy and foolish ways of justifying what is wrong.

    But Jesus is not conceited, is He? He did not welcome excuses to stay away from people.

    "He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:2)

    The writer is coming out with the same old stuff > the article is not original, and people leaving churches for the writer's reason is not an age or generation related thing. Not everybody is doing it.
     
  7. GACfan

    GACfan Well-Known Member

    +2,228
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    The examples you listed are the normal reactions whenever the ill-behavior of Christians is pointed out and these reactions usually include name-calling and derogatory remarks too. If a Christian resorts to derogatory name-calling because they don't agree with or like another person, then that's a stumbling block and it could tarnish their witness. I don't think it's surprising that people are leaving the Church.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  8. GACfan

    GACfan Well-Known Member

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    I agree.

    Christians are responsible for their personal behavior and for their personal witness. Christians are also responsible for how they treat other people who are different than they are. Does the unloving behavior of a Christian toward another person they don't like not matter? People can either be drawn to Jesus Christ or pushed away from Him by how they are treated by Christians. Christians can be a blessing or they can be stumbling block. Sadly, the latter seems to be the norm these days.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  9. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother? Supporter

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    Do you just not read very much counter-Christian thought? Literally everything quoted in the OP has been said by "former Christians" for decades. Welcoming, hypocrisy, the young people, something something LGBT, rearrange the order of her grievances and you've got the same essential bones as hundreds (or thousands) of other similar articles online.

    Hypocrisy? Welcome to real life! Everybody's a hypocrite sooner or later. It's not like Christians are breathing rarefied air there.

    LGBT? Golly, the mainstream Christian community opposes anything that's not heterosexual just like they did back in ancient Rome. Stop the presses!

    I won't even bother with the rest of that woman's sub-zero take. If this is all truly new content for you... well, do what the rest of us did: wait a while. It'll get pretty old pretty quick, I think.
     
  10. Curtis.Hilliker

    Curtis.Hilliker Now what.......

    566
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    Hebrews 10:25

    I’ve had my struggles for sure, even been burned by the church more than once, but I still love and need the church.
     
  11. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

    +10,509
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    So much hand-wringing about hypocrisy, as though they're the first to ever deal with it, and obviously the best answer is to leave. Does no one here know St. Moses the Black? Or is it just easier to pretend like the church started when you got there?

    When a brother committed a fault and Moses was invited to a meeting to discuss an appropriate penance, Moses refused to attend. When he was again called to the meeting, Moses took a leaking jug filled with water and carried it on his shoulder. When he arrived at the meeting place, the others asked why he was carrying the jug. He replied, "My sins run out behind me and I do not see them, but today I am coming to judge the errors of another." On hearing this, the assembled brothers forgave the erring monk.
    This is how the Church deals with hypocrisy within its ranks. If your particular congregation isn't doing that, it's something to work towards, not run away from.


     
  12. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Kinda like a new Rob Bell? I can't keep up.
     
  13. Tigger45

    Tigger45 St. Francis Supporter

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    Don’t forget the old saying,

    “If you find the perfect church leave because you’ll ruin it.”
     
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  14. Gregorikos

    Gregorikos Ordinary Mystic

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    We don't have the option of keeping our faith but leaving the church. If she is in the faith, she is in the church.

    And if she refuses to participate, she is this guy:

    Matthew 25:25 (NKJV)
    And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
     
  15. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Well-Known Member

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    While I agree with a lot of the sentiments in her letter I don’t agree that church should be diverse for diversity sake. Christianity is an exclusive faith (believe in the Lord Jesus is the only means of salvation) and inclusive (the gospel for everyone who believes). I also, don’t like the idea of church accepting certain ideas just because secular society is endorsing it. It’s one of the reasons I so admire the Catholic Church, they aren’t perfect but they are so traditional in places that matter.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  16. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Well-Known Member

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    We can’t disagree with scripture just because we don’t like it. It’s a tough question to deal with but it doesn’t mean it’s not true.
     
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  17. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Well-Known Member

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    From the comment section in her post.

    A496F5A9-0BBC-4EC5-B60A-61CAFF104DBC.jpeg
     
  18. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

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    There are scripture references, but they’re negative.

    One measure of maturity is comfort with hypocrisy.
     
  19. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

    +6,500
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    I hate hypocrisy too, I've seen it and been on the receiving end of ill treatment from it. There are people in the church that have serious problems. I would like to hear her solution to those problems in these people's lives.

    OK, she's a liberal, I get it. I'm not going to beat the "is gay marriage really marriage" dead horse, but I really don't see where the right for non-Christian faiths to practice their faiths publicly was an issue that has been voted on in my adult life.

    OK, but she said she was a pastor. Surely the church that let her be a pastor wasn't holding on to these ideas. I don't see how leaving such a church which probably shares her liberal beliefs and biases makes sense.

    A gay brother in my men's group serves along with us.

    The church that allowed her to pastor wasn't liberal enough for her? Is that it?

    This seems to ignore a lot of churches pastored and primarily populated by "people of color." They do exist. Integration takes work and results in hard conversations, but it happens as well.

    As someone who has relatives who did not actively follow Jesus in their lives who have passed on, in very questionable circumstances, I do not take this lightly. A year before one of them died, I tried unsuccessfully to talk about faith with her boyfriend. He was killed a couple of months later, I still think about that. I would encourage anyone who is willing to leave the church over its teaching on Hell to talk to somebody like me, who has a heart about it. And as people get older, and experience more people that they know dying, I think there's more people to talk to than she seems to give the church credit for.

    Can she believe that a conservative believer can and will acknowledge context, and people, and stories, and complexity, and still have conservative stances?

    If I were to express a conservative belief around her or even better, her and several of her other liberal friends, can I do so without being quickly told why I am wrong? This isn't the case with my liberal cousin and her friends. And she and I are tired of fighting!

    Yeah, that ain't right. I'm glad my men's group isn't like that.

    I'd like for her to come to my church. We're more conservative than she would like, but more inclusive and loving than she seems to give the church credit for. And that might be a revelation to her.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  20. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    Yeah, your right. But I'd call it a few very vague scripture implications. Regardless what I was referring to, as you suggest, is scripture to support her decision, not vague references to attack the church. I mean an open letter condemning the church, which ignores the document that actually contains its foundational tenants seems kinda silly.
     
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