Open letter to the church from millennial pastor - this is why we are leaving

[Tolworth John]

I think it all "starts with" a truly humble mind and heart attitude, etc, which of course has to come from God, etc, then He introduces you to His Son, and the rest, as they say, is, or will be history, at that point, etc...

At that point, be moved or motivated to Love and truly good works, etc, but out of gratitude and gratitude only, alone, etc, not that they save you but because you are saved, etc, etc, etc, truly producing His true fruits, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Agreed and something noticeably absent from the original letter.

 

[Neogaia777]

Agreed and something noticeably absent from the original letter.

It's pretty rare, but I hope we can all get there...

God Bless!

 

[mcarans]

Our congregation as part of the prayer of the church has always prayed for the president by name.


If you read the entire blog post you would understand why that is the case. However politics is not preached from the pulpit. He goes on to describe the two kingdoms theology to which the LCMS subscribes

Also, I’m not sure why a prayer for the president would be out of place. There are five LCMS churches in my area and every one of them has without fail prayed for the president by name when I attended.

Just to be clear, your church prayed for Democrat and Republican Presidents alike referring to them by name in the same way (ie. first name basis for both Dem and Rep or last name basis for both Dem and Rep)? The reason I ask is that "our President Donald" sounds much warmer than just "President Obama" for example and an accumulation of these small differences from the pulpit can make a big difference much like an ongoing series of targeted Facebook ads (one probably won't do much but over time they can change a person's views).

 

[Athanasius377]

Just to be clear, your church prayed for Democrat and Republican Presidents alike referring to them by name in the same way (ie. first name basis for both Dem and Rep or last name basis for both Dem and Rep)? The reason I ask is that "our President Donald" sounds much warmer than just "President Obama" for example and an accumulation of these small differences from the pulpit can make a big difference much like an ongoing series of targeted Facebook ads (one probably won't do much but over time they can change a person's views).

We prayed for the president typically by last name. But yes, from both parties.

 

[Archivist]

We usually pray for President ____, the members of Congress and the Justices of the United States Supreme Court, for Governor _____, the members of the General Assembly, and the Justices of the Supreme Court of the Commonwealth, and for all other public officials. In doing this we simply use the President's and Governor's last names and we would never say "our President ____" or "our Governor _____" simply because we like the person's party affiliation.

 

[Sparagmos]

Our society followed on from the slave owning Romans, that ruralism also involved slave shows that it is not enough to claim other societies were slavery free.

Ruralusm wasn’t a time in history, not sure what you mean. Rome was hardly the beginning of human culture. There have been plenty of instances of tribes, cultures, societies without slavery that predate Christianity.

Care to comment on church fathers’ quotes on women?

 

[Beanieboy]

I wanted to make a comment on Christian hypocrisy. If you aren't going out of your way to be a total jerk, are at least as tolerable as most people, I have no problem.

While the OP's problem within her church was that people were publicly holy, and privately sinning, my problem is with Christians who harshly judge others without love, but when called on their own shortcomings, say they are not perfect, just forgiven.

When Jesus was invited to dinner by Simon, a Pharisee, a woman who had lived a sinful life came into the house and washed Christ's feet with her tears dried them with her hair, and anointed his head with expensive oils.
When Simon saw this, he judged them both: the woman was a sinner, and Jesus was a false prophet because he didn't know what kind of nasty woman she was, and allowed her to approach.

Jesus asks Simon who loves his master more, the one forgiven a great debt or a small one. Simon answers, "the one forgiven a large large debt."
Christ responds, "You have judged rightly."

Simon had judged himself as loving God less than the woman who looked upon with contempt, pointing Simon didn't offer to wash his feet, while she had washed them with her tears and dried them with her hair.

And growing up, I judged her as well, believing she was crying tears of sorrow, begging Christ to forgive her, but I now believe it was tears of joy, the oils gifts of adoration and gratitude, knowing that, unlike the Pharisees who probably didn't acknowledge her probably told her she was unworthy of God's love, or anyone else's, that she was loved, as she was, and needed only to accept that love.

That love, the little light of mine, is what changes people.

Simon showed contempt. Christ showed mercy.
Simon saw a sinner, and himself as holy.
Christ pointed out who demonstrated more love by their actions, humbling Simon.
Simon saw a sinner, and a false prophet.
Christ saw a woman, of child of God.
He doesn't demand she repent first.

Now, before everyone gets bent out of shape, one can point out the shortcoming of another Christian in love*, not in condemnation, not to feel morally superior, not to humiliate. But, if you have a plank in your eye, why are you concerned about the speck in another?

Countless times, a Christian will claim that Jesus is ok judging others as long as you do not commit the same sin you condemn. If that were true, Jesus would have said, "Why are you concerned with tge speck in your brother's eye when you have a speck in your own.
speck=speck

The comparison of a plank to a speck is that the person quick to judge another's faults often does so to exalt themselves, and ignores the major sin, most commonly, lack of love.

I, as a Christian, try my best to treat others in love. I help when I can, give without asking anything in return, and love my neighbor as myself. I don't like it when a stranger who doesn't know me makes judgements about me, so I refrain from judging people in general, and those I do I know well, have a good rapport, and say it in love to help them. I have judged people in my past, but when you get to know them and their lives, you may understand better why the person drinking so much lost her sister to suicide and grandmother to cancer in the past 6 months, the guy you love to walk by and say, "smoking causes cancer" is under a lot of stress when his parents told him they didn't know if they could send him back to school next year. The girl that is so mean to everyone was bullied a lot in high school, so she learned to protect herself by building ip walls and throwing the first punch.

Driving for Lyft, I picked up a rider who was promoting a group that worked with the community, was told it was inter-denomjnational,and J said, "That's cool you are working together,and from comparative religions I have read, Islam, Buddhism and Christianity have loving your neighbor as yourself at the core"

She quickly added, "Yes, but it isn't loving if I don't point out another's sin. If someone is alcoholic, it wouldn't be loving to approve of it."

I was considering joining this group until she said that.

I'm thinking: Loving one's neighbor in the Bay might look like bringing food to the growing tent cities, or volunteer work, visiting elderly people, working at a food shelf or battered women's shelter or just helping someone with their groceries they are struggling to carry.

She is thinking: i need to tell people what sins they have.

Anyone can condemn a person. That doesn't take love. People refee to the president as an idiot vulgar and divisive out of contempt, not love, to make him a better man. And while correcting can be loving, let's put it in a RL context.

You meet a girl. It's love at first site. During dinner, she says that you do this kind of annoying habit of talking while eating. She just wanted to be honest and truthful, and loving. After a while, you realize the only way she can show love is to point out your faults, like you were 5 minutes late, that your shirt and pants don't match, that you interrupt when she's talking, that you say, "um" a lot...

Then she's confused why you no longer want to see her, because she was being so loving.
When you mention how tired you got of being criticized so often, and that you never pointed out her shortcomings, she gets incensed you think she has any, and telling you your faults was meant to help yiu, out of love.
You point out a few of hers, and she says, "Well, I'm not perfect!"
"Neither am I" you say.
"But if I don't point out your faults, it's like I'm approving of them, but you point our mine, i feel judged, and prefer to focus on you."

That is what I see so often. Loving is always associated with pointing out the sin of others, rarely, "I was hungry and you fed me; I was naked and you clothed me;" not someone asking for your shirt and offering your coat as well. Almost exclusively pointing out sins of others.

NonChristians and GLBTQ cringe when we hear it: "Love the sinner...hate the sin."

What we hear is:
I see you as a sinner, unlike me.
Your sins are big. Mine are too small to worry about.
I don't see you as human, but as a sin. And I certainly don't see you as a Child of God.
I came "just as I am, without one plea"
i expect you to repent, change, before coming to Jesus.
If I see you and you are gay, I will assume to be an authority on both the bible, and all research studies of homosexuals than the person is themselves I don't understand that you've cried yourself to sleep night after night, pleading for God to change you, that you have gone through conversion therapy without orientation changing, that you have not only read the 2 verses of Leviticus, but have watched videos by theologians. read books on the subject, and have come to understand that most of the Clobber Passages are misunderstood and misused when condemning homosexuality. I fact, I will act confused that you know the bible so well, better than I do, afmit that I've only read those two verses, don't know who was speaking, to whom, and why, that Leviticus has laws about being kosher, or the cultural belief that men have tiny fully formed babies that are [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to conceive, this, masturbating or male/make sex was wasting lives for a traveling tribe trying to survive, which is the reason the doesn't mention women with women.

And yet, despite my lack of research, knowledge or praying about it, I claim "it's really clear", because I made up my mind. Why dig deeper?

I had someone say to me, "Love you, just hate your sin." Confused, I said,"Love you, too. And hate you sin, too, er whatever..." She said, "My* sin?? What sin do I have??" I said, "I'm not sure, but we all have them. And I hate sin, too I thought you were talking about my sin in general."

She then explains that if she simply told me she loved me, I might mistakenly think that she approves of my sin. But by using a tag line, it doesn't feel like love. It feels conditional at best.

Do you say to your significant other: Love you, just hate your faults?
If someone said that to me, I'm hearing,"I see your faults when I look at you, and love the person I want you to become, but not who you are.

Everyone knows what love is and isn't. People unable to display the love that is gentle, kind, humble, merciful, will insist that those claiming they are unloving just don't recognize it, like when a chikd punishes his child. Were the other a child, I could see it, but not when you are both adults, able to make your own choices, and have no authority over others.

Do you tuck your kids in and say I love you or only I love you, but don't like when you misbehave?
If you said it after they misbehaved on occasion, I could ses it.

If that is the only way you could say I love you - with a tag line, would your kids feel loved?

Despite 1 Corinthians 13 definition of Love is gentle; love in kind..., the argument will quickly turn to the loving by disciplining, saying people enjoy the warm fuzzy love, but the disciplinary love
people shy away from because it is so hard.

Being gentle and kind to unkind people, the "bless your enemies," returning curses with blessing and praying for your enemies, is much harder than pointing out everything wrong with your enemy. Forgiving someone is much harder than condemning someone with scripture.

As an example, guys on my dorm floor often talked of their hatred of gays, never able to articulate why.
Many religious leaders would say gays were an abomination, hated by God.
The dorm guys used a derogatory word to dehumanize them.
Religious people used abominations, reprobate, predators.
Dorm guys would joke about lining them all up and gunning them down.
Religious people would say if Americans were following God's word, gays would be executed, and that God commands it, so not even our choice.

It sounded the same, only one group hid behind the bible to justify their hatred.

In fact, when talking about the "softball game" (Bring Your Own Bat -Bashing), some who rarely went to church, or read the bible, said he "heard a preacher say the bible commands them to be killed. IEven God is on our side...I mean, bruh, if even God hates you..."

So, my problem is the hypocrisy of being forgiven, then condemning others, beibg saved through grace, then acting morally superior like you earned it, seeing love only as pointing out a person's faults, calling them sinners, demanding them to change to be accepted by God, but unable to show fruits of the spirit, or claim to follow Jesus, who told us to love our neighbor as ourselves
and to love God, and either don't love, thus don't follow Jesus, downplay love for sin pointing, or redefine love because no one believes the protest at the funeral with Bible quotes feels loving, but cruel.

 

[Neogaia777]

It's pretty rare, but I hope we can all get there...

God Bless!

I wanted to make a comment on Christian hypocrisy. If you aren't going out of your way to be a total jerk, are at least as tolerable as most people, I have no problem.

While the OP's problem within her church was that people were publicly holy, and privately sinning, my problem is with Christians who harshly judge others without love, but when called on their own shortcomings, say they are not perfect, just forgiven.

When Jesus was invited to dinner by Simon, a Pharisee, a woman who had lived a sinful life came into the house and washed Christ's feet with her tears dried them with her hair, and anointed his head with expensive oils.
When Simon saw this, he judged them both: the woman was a sinner, and Jesus was a false prophet because he didn't know what kind of nasty woman she was, and allowed her to approach.

Jesus asks Simon who loves his master more, the one forgiven a great debt or a small one. Simon answers, "the one forgiven a large large debt."
Christ responds, "You have judged rightly."

Simon had judged himself as loving God less than the woman who looked upon with contempt, pointing Simon didn't offer to wash his feet, while she had washed them with her tears and dried them with her hair.

And growing up, I judged her as well, believing she was crying tears of sorrow, begging Christ to forgive her, but I now believe it was tears of joy, the oils gifts of adoration and gratitude, knowing that, unlike the Pharisees who probably didn't acknowledge her probably told her she was unworthy of God's love, or anyone else's, that she was loved, as she was, and needed only to accept that love.

That love, the little light of mine, is what changes people.

Simon showed contempt. Christ showed mercy.
Simon saw a sinner, and himself as holy.
Christ pointed out who demonstrated more love by their actions, humbling Simon.
Simon saw a sinner, and a false prophet.
Christ saw a woman, of child of God.
He doesn't demand she repent first.

Now, before everyone gets bent out of shape, one can point out the shortcoming of another Christian in love*, not in condemnation, not to feel morally superior, not to humiliate. But, if you have a plank in your eye, why are you concerned about the speck in another?

Countless times, a Christian will claim that Jesus is ok judging others as long as you do not commit the same sin you condemn. If that were true, Jesus would have said, "Why are you concerned with tge speck in your brother's eye when you have a speck in your own.
speck=speck

The comparison of a plank to a speck is that the person quick to judge another's faults often does so to exalt themselves, and ignores the major sin, most commonly, lack of love.

I, as a Christian, try my best to treat others in love. I help when I can, give without asking anything in return, and love my neighbor as myself. I don't like it when a stranger who doesn't know me makes judgements about me, so I refrain from judging people in general, and those I do I know well, have a good rapport, and say it in love to help them. I have judged people in my past, but when you get to know them and their lives, you may understand better why the person drinking so much lost her sister to suicide and grandmother to cancer in the past 6 months, the guy you love to walk by and say, "smoking causes cancer" is under a lot of stress when his parents told him they didn't know if they could send him back to school next year. The girl that is so mean to everyone was bullied a lot in high school, so she learned to protect herself by building ip walls and throwing the first punch.

Driving for Lyft, I picked up a rider who was promoting a group that worked with the community, was told it was inter-denomjnational,and J said, "That's cool you are working together,and from comparative religions I have read, Islam, Buddhism and Christianity have loving your neighbor as yourself at the core"

She quickly added, "Yes, but it isn't loving if I don't point out another's sin. If someone is alcoholic, it wouldn't be loving to approve of it."

I was considering joining this group until she said that.

I'm thinking: Loving one's neighbor in the Bay might look like bringing food to the growing tent cities, or volunteer work, visiting elderly people, working at a food shelf or battered women's shelter or just helping someone with their groceries they are struggling to carry.

She is thinking: i need to tell people what sins they have.

Anyone can condemn a person. That doesn't take love. People refee to the president as an idiot vulgar and divisive out of contempt, not love, to make him a better man. And while correcting can be loving, let's put it in a RL context.

You meet a girl. It's love at first site. During dinner, she says that you do this kind of annoying habit of talking while eating. She just wanted to be honest and truthful, and loving. After a while, you realize the only way she can show love is to point out your faults, like you were 5 minutes late, that your shirt and pants don't match, that you interrupt when she's talking, that you say, "um" a lot...

Then she's confused why you no longer want to see her, because she was being so loving.
When you mention how tired you got of being criticized so often, and that you never pointed out her shortcomings, she gets incensed you think she has any, and telling you your faults was meant to help yiu, out of love.
You point out a few of hers, and she says, "Well, I'm not perfect!"
"Neither am I" you say.
"But if I don't point out your faults, it's like I'm approving of them, but you point our mine, i feel judged, and prefer to focus on you."

That is what I see so often. Loving is always associated with pointing out the sin of others, rarely, "I was hungry and you fed me; I was naked and you clothed me;" not someone asking for your shirt and offering your coat as well. Almost exclusively pointing out sins of others.

NonChristians and GLBTQ cringe when we hear it: "Love the sinner...hate the sin."

What we hear is:
I see you as a sinner, unlike me.
Your sins are big. Mine are too small to worry about.
I don't see you as human, but as a sin. And I certainly don't see you as a Child of God.
I came "just as I am, without one plea"
i expect you to repent, change, before coming to Jesus.
If I see you and you are gay, I will assume to be an authority on both the bible, and all research studies of homosexuals than the person is themselves I don't understand that you've cried yourself to sleep night after night, pleading for God to change you, that you have gone through conversion therapy without orientation changing, that you have not only read the 2 verses of Leviticus, but have watched videos by theologians. read books on the subject, and have come to understand that most of the Clobber Passages are misunderstood and misused when condemning homosexuality. I fact, I will act confused that you know the bible so well, better than I do, afmit that I've only read those two verses, don't know who was speaking, to whom, and why, that Leviticus has laws about being kosher, or the cultural belief that men have tiny fully formed babies that are [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to conceive, this, masturbating or male/make sex was wasting lives for a traveling tribe trying to survive, which is the reason the doesn't mention women with women.

And yet, despite my lack of research, knowledge or praying about it, I claim "it's really clear", because I made up my mind. Why dig deeper?

I had someone say to me, "Love you, just hate your sin." Confused, I said,"Love you, too. And hate you sin, too, er whatever..." She said, "My* sin?? What sin do I have??" I said, "I'm not sure, but we all have them. And I hate sin, too I thought you were talking about my sin in general."

She then explains that if she simply told me she loved me, I might mistakenly think that she approves of my sin. But by using a tag line, it doesn't feel like love. It feels conditional at best.

Do you say to your significant other: Love you, just hate your faults?
If someone said that to me, I'm hearing,"I see your faults when I look at you, and love the person I want you to become, but not who you are.

Everyone knows what love is and isn't. People unable to display the love that is gentle, kind, humble, merciful, will insist that those claiming they are unloving just don't recognize it, like when a chikd punishes his child. Were the other a child, I could see it, but not when you are both adults, able to make your own choices, and have no authority over others.

Do you tuck your kids in and say I love you or only I love you, but don't like when you misbehave?
If you said it after they misbehaved on occasion, I could ses it.

If that is the only way you could say I love you - with a tag line, would your kids feel loved?

Despite 1 Corinthians 13 definition of Love is gentle; love in kind..., the argument will quickly turn to the loving by disciplining, saying people enjoy the warm fuzzy love, but the disciplinary love
people shy away from because it is so hard.

Being gentle and kind to unkind people, the "bless your enemies," returning curses with blessing and praying for your enemies, is much harder than pointing out everything wrong with your enemy. Forgiving someone is much harder than condemning someone with scripture.

As an example, guys on my dorm floor often talked of their hatred of gays, never able to articulate why.
Many religious leaders would say gays were an abomination, hated by God.
The dorm guys used a derogatory word to dehumanize them.
Religious people used abominations, reprobate, predators.
Dorm guys would joke about lining them all up and gunning them down.
Religious people would say if Americans were following God's word, gays would be executed, and that God commands it, so not even our choice.

It sounded the same, only one group hid behind the bible to justify their hatred.

In fact, when talking about the "softball game" (Bring Your Own Bat -Bashing), some who rarely went to church, or read the bible, said he "heard a preacher say the bible commands them to be killed. IEven God is on our side...I mean, bruh, if even God hates you..."

So, my problem is the hypocrisy of being forgiven, then condemning others, beibg saved through grace, then acting morally superior like you earned it, seeing love only as pointing out a person's faults, calling them sinners, demanding them to change to be accepted by God, but unable to show fruits of the spirit, or claim to follow Jesus, who told us to love our neighbor as ourselves
and to love God, and either don't love, thus don't follow Jesus, downplay love for sin pointing, or redefine love because no one believes the protest at the funeral with Bible quotes feels loving, but cruel.

Thanks for trying to "help us all get there" man, really genuinely and truly, thanks, really like your post...

Just wonder that it will only fall on deaf ears with a lot of others though, but I'm going to try to keep it/them in mind anyway, for myself anyway, etc...

Thanks again,

God Bless!

 

[Tolworth John]

Ruralusm wasn’t a time in history, not sure what you mean. Rome was hardly the beginning of human culture. There have been plenty of instances of tribes, cultures, societies without slavery that predate Christianity.

Care to comment on church fathers’ quotes on women?

Sorry fumble fingers, that should read fudalism.
Those culture are not the ones our society grew out of.

Church Fathers quotes, I don't see the relevance.

 

[TheDag]

not going to read entire thread. only read OP.
While I doubt it is true if it is I can say that they are hypocrites. They are not accepting like they claim.
The saying if you find a perfect church don't join because you will ruin it has a lot of truth to it.

You know I have issues with people at church. I have disagreements including on a certain topic that can't even be discussed on CF although I would receive widespread condemnation if I did! Yet I go to church and put up with their faults because it is beneficial. it is commanded in the bible. They put up with my imperfections most of which I'm sure I am not even aware of.

Millenials generally believe you must agree with someone 100% otherwise you can not be associated with them. That is simply a lie of the modern age.

 

[TheDag]

Thats quite a claim, and I think most historians and anthropologist would disagree. There were cultures that pre-date Christianity that were free of slavery, not patriarchal, and valued charity.

Twenty Vile Quotes Against Women By Church Leaders from St. Augustine to Pat Robertson

The woman who wrote this article didn’t leave Christianity, she left her church. She stopped associating with the Pharisees of our time. Judge a tree by its fruit. When church leaders are publicly judging and secretly sinning, the fruit is bad.

judaic law (and by default early christian law) was the first to base laws on people rather than property. Instead of whoever was wealthiest there would be no appearance difference. If a wealthier man took a poorer man to court under jewish law then the wealthy man was responsible for ensuring the poorer man was dressed the same way as the wealthy man. That way it would help eliminate opinions based on looks.
Salvation Army in particular were very invovled in womens lib movement in its early days. In some countries right from the beginning.

Noah was a drunk yet God used him. Yes people have said awful things in the past but plenty of good stuff has been said. As a pagan (as in pagan religion) said to a person who was about to give up on christianity because of behaviour of believers. They said Remember Christ is the example to follow and you should look at Christs behaviour and ask if it is worthy and give christianity another go.
Remember nobody is perfect.

 

[mcarans]

I wanted to make a comment on Christian hypocrisy. If you aren't going out of your way to be a total jerk, are at least as tolerable as most people, I have no problem.

While the OP's problem within her church was that people were publicly holy, and privately sinning, my problem is with Christians who harshly judge others without love, but when called on their own shortcomings, say they are not perfect, just forgiven.

When Jesus was invited to dinner by Simon, a Pharisee, a woman who had lived a sinful life came into the house and washed Christ's feet with her tears dried them with her hair, and anointed his head with expensive oils.
When Simon saw this, he judged them both: the woman was a sinner, and Jesus was a false prophet because he didn't know what kind of nasty woman she was, and allowed her to approach.

Jesus asks Simon who loves his master more, the one forgiven a great debt or a small one. Simon answers, "the one forgiven a large large debt."
Christ responds, "You have judged rightly."

Simon had judged himself as loving God less than the woman who looked upon with contempt, pointing Simon didn't offer to wash his feet, while she had washed them with her tears and dried them with her hair.

And growing up, I judged her as well, believing she was crying tears of sorrow, begging Christ to forgive her, but I now believe it was tears of joy, the oils gifts of adoration and gratitude, knowing that, unlike the Pharisees who probably didn't acknowledge her probably told her she was unworthy of God's love, or anyone else's, that she was loved, as she was, and needed only to accept that love.

That love, the little light of mine, is what changes people.

Simon showed contempt. Christ showed mercy.
Simon saw a sinner, and himself as holy.
Christ pointed out who demonstrated more love by their actions, humbling Simon.
Simon saw a sinner, and a false prophet.
Christ saw a woman, of child of God.
He doesn't demand she repent first.

Now, before everyone gets bent out of shape, one can point out the shortcoming of another Christian in love*, not in condemnation, not to feel morally superior, not to humiliate. But, if you have a plank in your eye, why are you concerned about the speck in another?

Countless times, a Christian will claim that Jesus is ok judging others as long as you do not commit the same sin you condemn. If that were true, Jesus would have said, "Why are you concerned with tge speck in your brother's eye when you have a speck in your own.
speck=speck

The comparison of a plank to a speck is that the person quick to judge another's faults often does so to exalt themselves, and ignores the major sin, most commonly, lack of love.

I, as a Christian, try my best to treat others in love. I help when I can, give without asking anything in return, and love my neighbor as myself. I don't like it when a stranger who doesn't know me makes judgements about me, so I refrain from judging people in general, and those I do I know well, have a good rapport, and say it in love to help them. I have judged people in my past, but when you get to know them and their lives, you may understand better why the person drinking so much lost her sister to suicide and grandmother to cancer in the past 6 months, the guy you love to walk by and say, "smoking causes cancer" is under a lot of stress when his parents told him they didn't know if they could send him back to school next year. The girl that is so mean to everyone was bullied a lot in high school, so she learned to protect herself by building ip walls and throwing the first punch.

Driving for Lyft, I picked up a rider who was promoting a group that worked with the community, was told it was inter-denomjnational,and J said, "That's cool you are working together,and from comparative religions I have read, Islam, Buddhism and Christianity have loving your neighbor as yourself at the core"

She quickly added, "Yes, but it isn't loving if I don't point out another's sin. If someone is alcoholic, it wouldn't be loving to approve of it."

I was considering joining this group until she said that.

I'm thinking: Loving one's neighbor in the Bay might look like bringing food to the growing tent cities, or volunteer work, visiting elderly people, working at a food shelf or battered women's shelter or just helping someone with their groceries they are struggling to carry.

She is thinking: i need to tell people what sins they have.

Anyone can condemn a person. That doesn't take love. People refee to the president as an idiot vulgar and divisive out of contempt, not love, to make him a better man. And while correcting can be loving, let's put it in a RL context.

You meet a girl. It's love at first site. During dinner, she says that you do this kind of annoying habit of talking while eating. She just wanted to be honest and truthful, and loving. After a while, you realize the only way she can show love is to point out your faults, like you were 5 minutes late, that your shirt and pants don't match, that you interrupt when she's talking, that you say, "um" a lot...

Then she's confused why you no longer want to see her, because she was being so loving.
When you mention how tired you got of being criticized so often, and that you never pointed out her shortcomings, she gets incensed you think she has any, and telling you your faults was meant to help yiu, out of love.
You point out a few of hers, and she says, "Well, I'm not perfect!"
"Neither am I" you say.
"But if I don't point out your faults, it's like I'm approving of them, but you point our mine, i feel judged, and prefer to focus on you."

That is what I see so often. Loving is always associated with pointing out the sin of others, rarely, "I was hungry and you fed me; I was naked and you clothed me;" not someone asking for your shirt and offering your coat as well. Almost exclusively pointing out sins of others.

NonChristians and GLBTQ cringe when we hear it: "Love the sinner...hate the sin."

What we hear is:
I see you as a sinner, unlike me.
Your sins are big. Mine are too small to worry about.
I don't see you as human, but as a sin. And I certainly don't see you as a Child of God.
I came "just as I am, without one plea"
i expect you to repent, change, before coming to Jesus.
If I see you and you are gay, I will assume to be an authority on both the bible, and all research studies of homosexuals than the person is themselves I don't understand that you've cried yourself to sleep night after night, pleading for God to change you, that you have gone through conversion therapy without orientation changing, that you have not only read the 2 verses of Leviticus, but have watched videos by theologians. read books on the subject, and have come to understand that most of the Clobber Passages are misunderstood and misused when condemning homosexuality. I fact, I will act confused that you know the bible so well, better than I do, afmit that I've only read those two verses, don't know who was speaking, to whom, and why, that Leviticus has laws about being kosher, or the cultural belief that men have tiny fully formed babies that are [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to conceive, this, masturbating or male/make sex was wasting lives for a traveling tribe trying to survive, which is the reason the doesn't mention women with women.

And yet, despite my lack of research, knowledge or praying about it, I claim "it's really clear", because I made up my mind. Why dig deeper?

I had someone say to me, "Love you, just hate your sin." Confused, I said,"Love you, too. And hate you sin, too, er whatever..." She said, "My* sin?? What sin do I have??" I said, "I'm not sure, but we all have them. And I hate sin, too I thought you were talking about my sin in general."

She then explains that if she simply told me she loved me, I might mistakenly think that she approves of my sin. But by using a tag line, it doesn't feel like love. It feels conditional at best.

Do you say to your significant other: Love you, just hate your faults?
If someone said that to me, I'm hearing,"I see your faults when I look at you, and love the person I want you to become, but not who you are.

Everyone knows what love is and isn't. People unable to display the love that is gentle, kind, humble, merciful, will insist that those claiming they are unloving just don't recognize it, like when a chikd punishes his child. Were the other a child, I could see it, but not when you are both adults, able to make your own choices, and have no authority over others.

Do you tuck your kids in and say I love you or only I love you, but don't like when you misbehave?
If you said it after they misbehaved on occasion, I could ses it.

If that is the only way you could say I love you - with a tag line, would your kids feel loved?

Despite 1 Corinthians 13 definition of Love is gentle; love in kind..., the argument will quickly turn to the loving by disciplining, saying people enjoy the warm fuzzy love, but the disciplinary love
people shy away from because it is so hard.

Being gentle and kind to unkind people, the "bless your enemies," returning curses with blessing and praying for your enemies, is much harder than pointing out everything wrong with your enemy. Forgiving someone is much harder than condemning someone with scripture.

As an example, guys on my dorm floor often talked of their hatred of gays, never able to articulate why.
Many religious leaders would say gays were an abomination, hated by God.
The dorm guys used a derogatory word to dehumanize them.
Religious people used abominations, reprobate, predators.
Dorm guys would joke about lining them all up and gunning them down.
Religious people would say if Americans were following God's word, gays would be executed, and that God commands it, so not even our choice.

It sounded the same, only one group hid behind the bible to justify their hatred.

In fact, when talking about the "softball game" (Bring Your Own Bat -Bashing), some who rarely went to church, or read the bible, said he "heard a preacher say the bible commands them to be killed. IEven God is on our side...I mean, bruh, if even God hates you..."

So, my problem is the hypocrisy of being forgiven, then condemning others, beibg saved through grace, then acting morally superior like you earned it, seeing love only as pointing out a person's faults, calling them sinners, demanding them to change to be accepted by God, but unable to show fruits of the spirit, or claim to follow Jesus, who told us to love our neighbor as ourselves
and to love God, and either don't love, thus don't follow Jesus, downplay love for sin pointing, or redefine love because no one believes the protest at the funeral with Bible quotes feels loving, but cruel.

You should write an article with this content! If you do, I invite you to share it on Cruciformity: the cross is where God is most clearly seen

 

[Archivist]

not going to read entire thread. only read OP.
While I doubt it is true if it is I can say that they are hypocrites. They are not accepting like they claim.
The saying if you find a perfect church don't join because you will ruin it has a lot of truth to it.

You know I have issues with people at church. I have disagreements including on a certain topic that can't even be discussed on CF although I would receive widespread condemnation if I did! Yet I go to church and put up with their faults because it is beneficial. it is commanded in the bible. They put up with my imperfections most of which I'm sure I am not even aware of.

Millenials generally believe you must agree with someone 100% otherwise you can not be associated with them. That is simply a lie of the modern age.

But how many Christian denominations are there, all of which cane from a single church? Those divisions certainly predate millennials.

 

[Sparagmos]

judaic law (and by default early christian law) was the first to base laws on people rather than property. Instead of whoever was wealthiest there would be no appearance difference. If a wealthier man took a poorer man to court under jewish law then the wealthy man was responsible for ensuring the poorer man was dressed the same way as the wealthy man. That way it would help eliminate opinions based on looks.
Salvation Army in particular were very invovled in womens lib movement in its early days. In some countries right from the beginning.

Noah was a drunk yet God used him. Yes people have said awful things in the past but plenty of good stuff has been said. As a pagan (as in pagan religion) said to a person who was about to give up on christianity because of behaviour of believers. They said Remember Christ is the example to follow and you should look at Christs behaviour and ask if it is worthy and give christianity another go.
Remember nobody is perfect.

What about Egyptian law, based on Ma’at?

Before agriculture, the concert of property was quite different. I’m not sure how you could know for a fact that earlier cultures only had laws dealing with property. That’s quite a stretch.

Nevertheless, I think it would be fantastic if conservative Christian churches took more cues from Judaic law. We’re long overdue for a Jubilee!

 

[hedrick]

Everything in the OP is consistent with Barna’s data in “unchristian”. They are hardly a liberal group, but when they talked to young Christians that’s what they found. Since they are ideologically opposed to fixing the problems their only suggestion was to keep on doing the same thing but be nicer about it.

 

[mcarans]

Everything in the OP is consistent with Barna’s data in “unchristian”. They are hardly a liberal group, but when they talked to young Christians that’s what they found. Since they are ideologically opposed to fixing the problems their only suggestion was to keep on doing the same thing but be nicer about it.

One the reviews of that book agrees with you
"I spent two years at an evangelical fundamentalist college and was stunned by the narrow-minded, judgmental attitudes I encountered. When I saw the title of this book, I hoped it would be about the evangelical conservatives discovering that in pursuing their "soul saving" approach to Christianity they had lost the way and lost touch with the teachings of Jesus. But by the end of the first chapter it was obvious they haven't changed their thinking, they're just slicker in how they sell their message. Too bad. Christianity could use a lot more foot soldiers in ministering to all of God's people, and a lot less Christian nationalists killing a terrorist for Christ (in my day it was "kill a commie for Christ in Vietnam). Don't waste your money. They're still lost in the wilderness."

 

[hedrick]

One the reviews of that book agrees with you
"I spent two years at an evangelical fundamentalist college and was stunned by the narrow-minded, judgmental attitudes I encountered. When I saw the title of this book, I hoped it would be about the evangelical conservatives discovering that in pursuing their "soul saving" approach to Christianity they had lost the way and lost touch with the teachings of Jesus. But by the end of the first chapter it was obvious they haven't changed their thinking, they're just slicker in how they sell their message. Too bad. Christianity could use a lot more foot soldiers in ministering to all of God's people, and a lot less Christian nationalists killing a terrorist for Christ (in my day it was "kill a commie for Christ in Vietnam). Don't waste your money. They're still lost in the wilderness."

I don’t agree with the recommendation not to waste your money on the book. Barna’s competence is polling, not theology. They do an excellent job of documenting the attitudes of younger Christians, even if their response would be considered unchristian by the people they had surveyed. (FYI, the title of the book refers to the fact that younger Christians saw the Church as being unchristian, for exactly the reasons in the OP.)

 

[Beanieboy]

Thanks for trying to "help us all get there" man, really genuinely and truly, thanks, really like your post...

Just wonder that it will only fall on deaf ears with a lot of others though, but I'm going to try to keep it/them in mind anyway, for myself anyway, etc...

Thanks again,

God Bless!

I hope you understand that the reason I point it out is to help people have a better understanding of the issue, and how it affects people:
If someone shrugs, and says "everyone is hypocritical. Why single Christians out?", and dismisses it, they miss a kaizen moment. People single out Christians because some Christians will condemn others, think them lowly sinners, while they sin but forgive themselves, and think their sins petty. One of the things I always tell myself is: When you approach another, approach them as if the were Christ, and admit that because you sin, too, you are both lowly, and both children of God. I laugh when people try to reason, sayibg "I don't willfully sin." You do it against your will? You accidentally went to that strip club Someone had a gun to your head and told you to swear at the guy in traffic? Just own it. Yes, we have a sinful nature, and we have a holy nature. The one that gets stronger is the one you feed.
2. When the nonChristian hears the concern dismissed, the Christian is saying I don't care. Why woukd anyone want to come to Christ if the followers have stone hearts.
3. There is a parable where a king forgives a man a large debt, but the man refuses to forgive the small debt of his servant. Angered, the king reinstates the man's debt.
To freely condemn others to hell, while forgiving oneself is hthe biggest insult to God's Grace. You are forgiven by grace, alone, so pay it forward.

There is another point that has been weighing on me, and that is one of lying, especially lying to prove yourself right or persuade people. This is why:
I was reading an old thread about the Evolution of The Gay Agenda. It had really detailed plans of how it was marketed to seem cool with Will and Grace, or Ellen, and how gays are vicious predators, hate God, and want to destroy society.
And then people meet us, at a party at school and college, at work, and learn, we don't go to secret Gay Agenda meetings, we aren't predators. We are their friends, the cousin, their neighbor, their child. And each time someone hears "the gay agenda", they know it's more lies and propaganda. When I gear ex-gays say, "I had bern leadibg a gay lifestyle for the last 18 years," it's sounds phony, and a lie. No gay prrson i have ever met says, "I live a gay lifestyle." The say, "I am gay."
And while I wish the ex-gay person luck, I have known exgays who got married, had kids,and realized they were still gay.
Listen on yoytube to women who married exgay men, that ultimately ended in divorce after their husbands realized they were still gay 18 years later- the women feel used by conversion therapy groups, because they were put in a pisition of fixing their husband's orientation, and foe some, 15+ years later, feel like their best years are gone. Staying on the same topic only for example, I have seen Christians lie about why homosexuality was off the list of mental illnesses. lie about research regarding nature/nurture. And some of the lies are so ridonkukius, like Robertson blaming hurricanes on GLBT or the ring we wear here in SF, according to Robertson, which gives a small cut when shaking hands, to spread AIDS.
Know what hapoens when everyone realizes someone is a liar, and creates slander and gossip? They stoo listening to anything the liar says. It's one of the reasons why conservative Christians are losing the war on LGBTQ Agenda - it doesn't exist, then if you refer to it iften, seen as a liar, and now everything you say will be scrutinized. Saying your religious freedoms are being infringed upon when one is ironically using the bible to support discrimination will be seen as a lie. Claiming you are unfairly charged 127k in damages is you persecuted for being Christian will make people empathize with you, until they learned you put the court document on Facebook (Remember the teacher that wanted to show kids how fast a picture on FB goes around the world?) left the Plaintiff's address and phone number on it, and the Plaintiff received harassment and death threats.

If you can prove your point, you don't need to lie, but it is a lie told so often do as to convince people the lie is real. Once discovered, the trust is broken.

Interestingly, when I came years ago, on two different sites, the Spirit moved me to witness to Christians, Conservative Christians, and I thought, "God, are you insane? Those people will eat you for dinner and quote scripture to support it.
But I did. I would sometimes type, 15 minutes later, a really long post, but reading through, even I was moved.

And I'm sure that Conservatives could help me as well. It's that with it's current state, the major weaknesses that I can't let go, approve of, As with all things, take them to God for discernmemt, and listen. If one can't even do that, I've said what I came to say. Take it or leave it.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why woukd anyone want to come to Christ if the followers have stone hearts.

Like "stone hearts" = don't obey, don't hear , don't live ? ignore the Shepherd or just can't hear Him ?

 

[TheDag]

What about Egyptian law, based on Ma’at?

Before agriculture, the concert of property was quite different. I’m not sure how you could know for a fact that earlier cultures only had laws dealing with property. That’s quite a stretch.

Nevertheless, I think it would be fantastic if conservative Christian churches took more cues from Judaic law. We’re long overdue for a Jubilee!

Sorry I didn't explain myself properly.
I did not mean they only had laws about property but rather if you owned property and were wealthy then the law was clearly biased in your favour and looked down on others. It was not about justice.