Open letter to the church from millennial pastor - this is why we are leaving

TheDag

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Can you site it?
Falwell, Robertson and others, as well ss many people, Christian and non, claimed it was God's Judgement, or they got what they deserved.
It was also the time when some churches banned glbt from their services, so I may have missed the collection plate thing.
Can I link to sources? No I can't. tony Campolo was certainly involved though.

MCC and All God's Children formed after churches rejected gay people. It was well known and respected.
The protesters, yelling at people in the parade that they were going to hell, weren't doing it out of love anymore than Westboro is.

At one Pride, a handful of protesters, signs quoting Leviticus (seriously? Even theologians understand how misused this is), and implied gays should be killed. The Gay Men's Chorus, when they saw them, stopped their song, and began singing, "Jesus loves me, this I know.."
The protesters were livid, screaming,"No he doesn't."
Noticed you didn't address my comments. In fact it seems you have not read them properly.

Well, either the Bible, or the protester, is wrong.
Well if you think it is acceptable for gay people taking part in a gay pride march to tell the christians wanting to take part to go home (can't use actual words they said here as automatic censor will block them) then that is your choice. However you are only condoning behaviour with people you agree with while condemning same behaviour in those you disagree with. That is called double standards.

And your position is that despite what Ezekial says, because you want to believe, S and G was discovered because of homosexuality, not because the had plenty but did not care for the needy, or sexual immorality, such as gang rape, so much so, that had they gang raped Lot's daughters, they would have been spared?

Believe what want.
That they were not interested in female but only male tells you something. If it was just about gang rape like you say then they would have been happy with Lots daughter.

Yeah, I've read Enyart's misquoted verses lifted out of context.

When he called the woman a dog, he said the master does not take the bread from the children and give to the dogs. She replies that even the dogs get yhe crumbs, at which point he exalts her, saying that she had faith even when pushed away.

If you want to take from that that it is ok to call someone a dog as an insult to be like Jesus, then you answer for it at your own judgement.

And while the "tough love" is very popular among conservative Christians today, the kind of disciplining can often be done without love, and often is.
Apparently you like misrepresenting what people have said. You were talking as if Jesus was always sweet and gentle. Doesn't matter what he went on to say he still referred to her as a dog. That is not sweet and gentle. It is pretty tough language. I never claimed he didn't go on to say something after that.

You may need to explain who this Enyart is. Don't remember him from the bible.


1 Corinthians description of, what are you calling it? Fairytale? has to be discounted, the lack of fruit of the spirit discounted... Or maybe, there is no love there, which is the log growing out of one's eye.
Are you deliberately misrepresenting what I said? Or was it an accident? I said lets not make a fairytale version of God. You know in the NT after crucifiction God struck people dead for telling a lie. A lie that people would classify as a white lie! Does that sound gentle?
I know there is no such thing as a white lie but talking about what society in general would call it.

I asked you not to take my word for it, but take it to God. You said, "Why should I?" Free will. And you will answer for it.
Evidence of this claim please. That is evidence I said "Why should I?" Bearing false witness against your neighbour is not something God generally looks favourably on. I stated I have seen those arguments before and seen the misrepresentations.

Then perhaps you could follow your own advice.
So you feel it is godly to pass judgement on me. Interesting theology you have there!
 
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Beanieboy

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Noticed you didn't address my comments. In fact it seems you have not read them properly
You've already made up your mind. What is the point? For example:
"Well if you think it is acceptable for gay people taking part in a gay pride march to tell the christians wanting to take part to go home (can't use actual words they said here as automatic censor will block them) then that is your choice. However you are only condoning behaviour with people you agree with while condemning same behaviour in those you disagree with. That is called double standards.

There are always churches at Pride, because despite your opinion, there are...wait for it...Christians who are GLBTQ.
That they were not interested in female but only male tells you something. If it was just about gang rape like you say then they would have been happy with Lots daughter.
And if that were true, they would have gang raped Lot. But they wanted the angels, which is even worse. But in your mind, if they had gang raped the wonen, God would have spared them? Wow. And would you throw your daughters out to them?

If everyone was homosexual, they wouldn't reproduce and die out.

None of this makes logical sense.

Apparently you like misrepresenting what people have said. You were talking as if Jesus was always sweet and gentle. Doesn't matter what he went on to say he still referred to her as a dog. That is not sweet and gentle. It is pretty tough language. I never claimed he didn't go on to say something after that.

You only quoted half of the story, then inferring Jesus refers to Gentiles as dogs, and was harsh to "sinners" to try to justify it.
You can tell me that you never said that, but I'm not sure that will fly on judgment when you try to get legal with God.

You may need to explain who this Enyart is. Don't remember him from the bible.

Bob Enyart
Should Christians Judge? | KGOV.com
Summary: similar to your view: Jesus was harsh, so have at it and judge people harshly, like Jesus.
A lot of your points sound like his points.

But unfortunately, I take the time to see what he is referring to by looking at the verses. Judge rightly, which he says Jesus tells us to judge, is lifted from the story where Simon the Pharisee invites Jesus to dinner. A woman with a bad reputation washes Christ's feet with her tears, dries them with her hair, and annoints his head with expensive oils. Simon judges Jesus as not being the Son of God because he allowed her to dven approach him, and judged the woman. Christ asks Simon, "Who loves his master more, the one forgiven a large debt or the one forgiven a small debt?" Simon says, "I suppose the one with the larger debt. Christ says, "You have judged rightly." Simon had judged himself. "You dod not offer to wash my feet, while she has washed my feet with her tears and dried them with her hair."
Jesus is not instructing us to judge other from that passage.

But he justifies calling people names because Christ did - snakes, vipers, dogs, swine...

Jesus was born a Jew. The woman who touched his garment that her daughter might be healed was a Gentile. Christ said the master does not take food from the table to give to the dogs, and she responds, yes, but even the dogs get the crumbs.

I am Gentile. Does that mean Jesus thinks me, and all Gentiles, are dogs? That to be like Jesus, you shoukd call Gentiles dogs?

Was Christ gentle? Often. To the woman washing his feet, he said nothing. Allowing her to approach when most Pharisees of the time would not even acknowledge her, was radically loving and humble. Something changed her, and it was not screaming she was going to hell, not harsh judgement, not namecalling. It was "love is gentlw, love is kind," not tough love. I imagine it was the first time she had received love, or told she is loved very dearly by God. And in receiving that love, she began to heal.

Was he harsh? He called the Pharisees snakes and vipers, whitewashed tombs, because the were holy for show, and dead on the inside. In other words, he was harsh to religious people who burdened others with the law and thought themselves holier than others, constantly condemning people.

He was harsh when sacrifices meant to be an offering to God of what you had, such as offering a lamb, was instead purchased, making it a sacrilege.

Are you deliberately misrepresenting what I said? Or was it an accident? I said lets not make a fairytale version of God. You know in the NT after crucifiction God struck people dead for telling a lie.
A lie that people would classify as a white lie! Does that sound gentle?
I know there is no such thing as a white lie but talking about what society in general would call it.

I don't know that story, but then it woukd imply that Christ didn't take away the sins of the world, and may strike you down for lying, or that Christ came to condemn the world.

Yeah, many people died in the OT, and I' not clear how you approach someone and present God. "God so loved the world that he sent his son to pay the price. But he also killed everyone but Noah's family, so...Want to worship this God? If you don't, you are eternally burned to death...But God is a God of love." Or will kill you for, you said a white lie? Wow.
Evidence of this claim please. That is evidence I said "Why should I?" Bearing false witness against your neighbour is not something God generally looks favourably on. I stated I have seen those arguments before and seen the misrepresentations.

I searched, and can't find it, so retract it. i sincerely thought you had said that, and the second time I had heard a Christian say that, and it puzzled me. I take everything to God in prayer. Why, as the woman did years ago, refuse to pray about it? Anyway, I misspoke.

But if you hadn't said it, and it was someone else, I made a mistake. I may have confused you with another. .

So you feel it is godly to pass judgement on me. Interesting theology you have there!

Why to people who are so quick to judge, get so over sensitive when you say they are being judgemental?

Is it meant to be clever, like "Isn't not tolerating intolerance intolerant?"

Do I judge you? Not the way you think I do. You debate like a lawyer. You say, "Jesus called people dogs and swine." I ask, "Are you saying you should call people dogs and swine?" A lawyerly response will probably be "I never said that."
Not literally. You inferred it, because we are to be like Christ.

So, your posts are kind of frustrating, because they don't edify me, really, but feels like a competition to prove yourself right, often denying facts, rarely trying to see the other point of view, and so, I often choose not to waste my time, not to "throw my pearls before swine" if you prefer that. I purposefully did not use that phrase because it is usually said with arrogance to another, implying they aren't worth the time, and I certainly don't want to call you swine.

But for me, it's more not worth the trouble and time to respond to someone who doesn't want to listen, and rather than an exchange of ideas, is closer to demanding I accept yours, and the HS won't allow it. I make sincere posts, and feel like i get knee-jerk, defensive responses.

Beyond that, I don't know you, really, and not seated at the right hand of God, and have no right to judge your walk with God, your life or your salvation. I focus on the one life I can control, my own.

I just think you are one of those frustrating people to talk to, like the guy who says, "I don't want to deny gays the right to marry. They can marry anyone of the opposite sex they want to - just like me. I can't marry someone one of the same sex..." It's akin to your brother with his finger an inch from your face, saying, "I'm not touching you. I'm not touching you..."

I don't want to feel like the person I am exchanging ideas and thoughts with uses the exchange as a trap to accuse and condemn.

That is my opinion of our interactions, so that is what happens when I ignore your posts: I'm not taking the bait.
 
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hedrick

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Take a look at who Jesus uses harsh language with. I think you'll find it's not ordinary "sinners", but religious leaders who are abusing their power to "tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on the shoulders of others; but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them."
 
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TheDag

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You've already made up your mind. What is the point? For example:

There are always churches at Pride, because despite your opinion, there are...wait for it...Christians who are GLBTQ.
This very first part of your response shows you just aren't reading what I am saying. I NEVER SAID CHRISTIANS DO NOT ATTEND. Is that clear enough for you? It is the non-christian gay people who I had an issue with. They were hateful bigots. They wanted to exclude the gay christians. Do you get it now? I don't know how else I can say it.

So let me ask you the question outright again. Why do you believe it is acceptable for gay people of no religion to be extremely hateful towards and derogatory of gay christians? That is what you are arguing for by disagreeing with me on this.
I think it is more likely a case of you read part of my comment initially and jumped to a response in your mind without taking the time to read what i said properly. It is the only explanation I can think of that gives you benefit of the doubt and assumes good intentions on your part.

You only quoted half of the story, then inferring Jesus refers to Gentiles as dogs, and was harsh to "sinners" to try to justify it.
You can tell me that you never said that, but I'm not sure that will fly on judgment when you try to get legal with God.
Once again I don't know how many times I can repeat myself and still have you refuse to read what I write. It makes it seem like you are deliberately twisting my words now since you have misrepresented my view on this bit so many times.
Put simply your claim was that Jesus only ever said really nice things. I simply pointed out occasions when he didn't. Regardless of going on after this and healing the womans daughter still does not take away the fact he compared her to a dog. Nowhere in this thread have I said we should be nasty to people calling them names. I have only said stop painting a unrealistic fairytale version of God.

Was he harsh? He called the Pharisees snakes and vipers, whitewashed tombs, because the were holy for show, and dead on the inside. In other words, he was harsh to religious people who burdened others with the law and thought themselves holier than others, constantly condemning people.
This is my point. That he could be harsh. You suggested he wasn't. So how can you admit he was harsh here but spend so much time arguing he was only gentle? i never said Jesus was not gentle at times. You for some reason decided I was like some guy i have never heard of and was trying to justify being nasty to people all the time. Once again I would suggest that if you took the time to read what I wrote then it would have been clear.


I don't know that story, but then it would imply that Christ didn't take away the sins of the world, and may strike you down for lying, or that Christ came to condemn the world.

Yeah, many people died in the OT, and I' not clear how you approach someone and present God. "God so loved the world that he sent his son to pay the price. But he also killed everyone but Noah's family, so...Want to worship this God? If you don't, you are eternally burned to death...But God is a God of love." Or will kill you for, you said a white lie? Wow.
No idea how you arrive at that conclusion. You say i am arguing to be right yet you jump to so many wild conclusions. Does God kill everyone for telling a white lie? No just like in the OT he showed mercy at times and not at others. We can not limit God by saying how he should act in a certain situation. Yet your conclusion here about what I am saying is limiting God in how God is allowed to act.
Every time we sin there is a consequence. One of those consequences is that Jesus had to choose to die on the cross to pay the price for our sins. Doesn't matter that it happened thousands of years ago. It is still the price for our sin today.

But if you hadn't said it, and it was someone else, I made a mistake. I may have confused you with another. .
Thank you. Takes a real mature person to say that.

Do I judge you? Not the way you think I do. You debate like a lawyer. You say, "Jesus called people dogs and swine." I ask, "Are you saying you should call people dogs and swine?" A lawyerly response will probably be "I never said that."
Not literally. You inferred it, because we are to be like Christ.
Nope I did not infer it. That is what you have chosen to read into it.

And if that were true, they would have gang raped Lot. But they wanted the angels, which is even worse. But in your mind, if they had gang raped the wonen, God would have spared them? Wow. And would you throw your daughters out to them?
Once again you make a blatently false claim against me. At no point in time did I condone Lots actions of offering his daughters. I understand he was desperate to get the men to leave the angels alone which I guess is what led to him making that awful offer. Although worth noting that was also way of marking beginning of marriage to have sex. If it was just about gang rape then they would have been happy with Lots daughters. It uses the phrase that Lots daughters were not known. Well of course people who lived there knew them however it means they were still virgins. That is why lot says his daughters were not known. So we know it is not about gang rape. We know sex with women was out of the question in their minds.

If everyone was homosexual, they wouldn't reproduce and die out.

None of this makes logical sense.
What??? Where is this coming from and in relation to what? This comment of yours makes no logical sense in the response. It doesn't fit in with the bit before or after and there is no context to explain what you may mean by this. i can not see how this is in any way relevant.

I would like to ask you a question. Do you believe God made babies to be born with disabilities? Do you think God made it so in friends family no male has ever lived past the age of 20? I only ask because of what you have stated in previous posts about way people are born and possible explanations of that.
 
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RDKirk

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Yep. Social Justice stuff is a western phenomenon. It doesn't really make sense outside of those countries, which is weird when you think about how those are also the least sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. societies in the world. So it's most prominent where it's least relevant. Go figure.

This is rather a tangent, but it seems like every generation wants to claim equal struggle with the generation before.

That can be true in some ways, but not in others, and in the West, it's not true in most ways.

I understood in my youth that my "struggle" was nowhere close to that of my grandparents or my parents. My grandmother would probably have slapped the spit out of my mouth if I ever claimed I had it as hard as her parents, or if I claimed I couldn't "cope" because my life was too hard.

I don't know how many times I've had to tell my daughter that at least six billion people in the world (probably more like 7 billions) would love to have her life.

Even in my life, "social justice" did not extend to trying to make everyone "celebrate" us...we never expected to be liked, just to be able to sit in public accommodations. These days, people demand to be "celebrated."
 
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RDKirk

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Take a look at who Jesus uses harsh language with. I think you'll find it's not ordinary "sinners", but religious leaders who are abusing their power to "tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on the shoulders of others; but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them."

That can go in both directions, though.

For instance, a congregation can demand that there be no divorces, or a that a divorced mother cannot remarry. If the husband beats his wife, that congregation must be willing to exert whatever pressure is necessary to make him stop...or make him leave. And then that congregation must then also make sure they as a body are there to meet all the needs of that woman and her family.
 
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summerville

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A former church attendee and pastor explains why she is leaving the church:

"I remember when I was serving as a pastor receiving emails, flyers and promotions for “solutions” to the issue of why millennials are leaving the church.

Truth be told, I didn’t realize I was actually a millennial until recently. (Apparently I am in the last year that they include millennials. And, ironically, I find myself joining them on this subject)

I, too, have left the church, but have not left my faith….

I loved church as a kid. It was my social outlet, my crowd, my people – faith and spirituality were something I identified with at an early age. But, with each generation, comes new perspectives and new ways of thinking.

One of the struggles many millennials have with organized religion in general is the inability of the older generations to adapt, change, or entertain new ideas and new ways of thinking. This is an issue each generation bumps up against, but this generation and this subject don’t seem to be finding a middle ground.

As a millennial, life-long church attendee and former pastor, I decided to write an open letter to the church, with the main reasons I decided to walk out of church doors. (And why many other millennials are doing the same).

Dear church,

You have asked why so many millennials are leaving your walls and refusing to come back. As one who has served, pastored and attended church my entire life, you may be surprised to learn that it isn’t just the “flaky” Christians who are leaving. Many leaders like myself are leaving too. And here’s why:

  1. We don’t like hypocrisy. I know, I know, a lot of you may wrinkle your noses when I say this – or scoff and say, “maybe other Christians, but not me”. Well friends, I’ve attended, led and pastored in more than one church and in multiple denominations. And, let me tell you, there’s a constant theme. Although, in my experience it seems to be more evident in the evangelical groups, it is a steady theme none the less. An example would be: preachers and sermons demonizing inappropriate contentography and any use of it. Making it appear that holy people (such as themselves) would never struggle with something like that. Especially never admit to it from the pulpit. Meanwhile, statistics show that over 50% of pastors view inappropriate content on a regular basis. Or, another example: people who lead mission trips, help the homeless, lead Bible studies and express a large outward appearance of “godliness” – yet, at home, where no one is watching, they neglect their spouses, are angry and controlling with their children and overall treat their family with much less respect and honor as they do the outside world they are “serving”.
  2. We don’t think that loving your neighbor as yourself should come with a ton of conditions. Again, I can hear the argument against this statement but, hear me out. I was respected when I loved my Christian peers, pew mates and bible study companions who were like myself. I celebrated their families, their marriages, their accomplishments. But, when my neighbor didn’t attend my church, was LGBTQ or held a different faith, I was not supposed to attend their weddings, rejoice when they had or adopted children or celebrate their accomplishments (because clearly it was all the devil’s handy work). I was also expected to not vote in favor of these neighbors having the same rights as myself; such as rights to marry, have tax benefits and create a family or practice their faith publicly. Not only is this not loving my neighbors as myself – it’s hypocrisy at its finest.
  3. We looked at history. History has this tendency to repeat itself. It doesn’t take long to pull back a few hundred years of history to see a nasty pattern throughout Westernized Christianity. Such as, the vast majority of slavery and racism was endorsed from pulpits. During the civil war, Christian pamphlets were passed to the confederates from churches and religious leaders in their support of God’s “holy war” – ie: the right to own slaves (Stout, Henry S.). Because, after all, slavery is endorsed by scripture. Another example, is how women’s rights were significantly hindered inside of the church and were fought against intensely (and still are) by many Christian leaders. Because, again, scripture supports the silence of women (if you want to interpret it that way). A pattern of oppression, bigotry and an overarching theme of one group holding all of the power, is nauseating.
  4. We struggle with inequality. We have experienced a lot of diversity. And we believe that diversity is GOOD. We struggle with our LGBTQ brothers and sisters not being allowed to serve or have their families be welcome in church communities. We struggle with the continual lack of diversity in leadership: with women, people of color and LGBTQ people. (If you don’t believe this to be an issue, just look at who is at the top of most Christian churches and communities). And, many times if a woman does find herself at the top, she is paid significantly less than a man would be in her position. The list of spiritually gifted women, LGBTQ people, and people of color that the church has pushed out is truly a tragedy.
  5. We have a hard time signing up for the idea that everyone we know who doesn’t claim our faith will be set on fire for eternity. If you’ve grown up in church, this concept seems super easy to embrace. Of course, your beloved grandma who is a universalist will burn in hell forever. Of course, your best friend at work who is an atheist will be tortured for eternity. Of course, your aunt who is a faithful Buddhist will be rejected by God and sent to be burned. This talk is so normalized for many millennials as children. But, once we grew up and really thought about what we were believing, the harder it was for us to reconcile that with the loving God we know. The concept of eternal torment is easy to embrace until it’s your grandma. Your parent. Your child. Your best friend. All of the sudden the idea of a forever place of torture doesn’t fit that well.
  6. We look at scripture differently. A lot of millennials were told “because the Bible says” so much that we actually grew up and decided to read it for ourselves. We read. We studied. We wrestled. We researched. And we realized that the Bible isn’t as clear as we were taught. We learned that there are many conflictions. That there is context involved. People involved. Stories involved. We learned that the Bible is complex, beautiful and sacred. And that it’s okay to not know or understand all of it. That it’s okay to disagree with what we were taught (and even disagree with eachother) – and that’s okay.
  7. We like authentic community. This is a big one. Many of us grew up attending home group, youth group, life groups, etc – whatever you want to call it. We invested time and energy into relationships, hoping to cultivate genuine connection (beyond just the idea that we attend church together). And, some of those relationships stuck. But, many of them didn’t. Many of these communities we found to be unsafe. Where we couldn’t be our true selves without being judged. We couldn’t express differing opinions (on faith, politics, culture) without being quickly told why we were wrong. We couldn’t go through life’s [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ty circumstances and just BE MAD. OR BE SAD. OR BE HUMAN. We felt expected to constantly be “okay”. And, truthfully, it’s exhausting. Because a lot of us weren’t okay. A lot of us had childhood trauma, failing marriages, troubled kids, a spouse who was gay, addictions to alcohol, inappropriate contentography and a lot of stuff that is pretty darn heavy. And yet, we felt like couldn’t be real about any of it – because when we were real, we were shamed. Or attempted to be “fixed”, “healed” or “delivered”. Many of us have found that we can cultivate and thrive in real community outside of church. And, we find it to be much healthier for us spiritually and for our families.
In closing, I will say that I have loved the church. I love the people. I love my personal history inside it’s walls. But, as I’ve grown, I have had to make some difficult decisions regarding what is healthy for me and my family.

For myself personally, these issues were what caused me to draw the line.

I now find church to be inside my home; a space where everyone is welcome. I find that I worship by loving my children well and find prayer in the breaths and inside my heart. I find that I’m pastoring others well out here in the wilderness. As a family, we find community and love wherever we are and whoever we are with.

I believe and know Spirit to be everywhere. It is all present and ever seeking. When the church embraces this idea too, you may see some of us return. Until then, we believe we are free to follow where we need to be and free to allow others to do the same.

Grace and peace,

Anna"

An open letter to the church from a millennial – this is why we are leaving

What are your thoughts on this?

There is no reason for Christians to put up with pastors who are hypocrites or ignorant birdbrains.

I think this Pastor is right on.
 
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summerville

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Yep. Social Justice stuff is a western phenomenon. It doesn't really make sense outside of those countries, which is weird when you think about how those are also the least sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. societies in the world. So it's most prominent where it's least relevant. Go figure.

Have you read Sermon on the Mount? Its about non violent liberation .. That's social justice teaching.
 
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RDKirk

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Have you read Sermon on the Mount? Its about non violent liberation .. That's social justice teaching.

Within the Body of believers, however. The Sermon on the Mount is not a repair manual for the world.
 
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summerville

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That can go in both directions, though.

For instance, a congregation can demand that there be no divorces, or a that a divorced mother cannot remarry. If the husband beats his wife, that congregation must be willing to exert whatever pressure is necessary to make him stop...or make him leave. And then that congregation must then also make sure they as a body are there to meet all the needs of that woman and her family.

I wouldn't go near the sort of church you are describing.
 
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TheDag

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Take a look at who Jesus uses harsh language with. I think you'll find it's not ordinary "sinners", but religious leaders who are abusing their power to "tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on the shoulders of others; but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them."
You mean like when he said to Peter "Get behind me Satan"? Is that one of those non-harsh statements you are talking about?
 
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Amittai

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Using 1950's-1990's methods to reach millenials and younger in church is like trying to hit a square peg into a round hole

Using 1990s methods to reach those growing up in the 1970s was already a non starter as we had non blending communities inside the churches let alone outside. The 1970s were chaotic, but pseud had entrenched less.
 
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lismore

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I think sometimes talking about generations, culture, or programmes can be missing the big picture.

I met a Kazakh lady once and her Chinese husband who were missionaries in Central Asia. There were people in their congregation who walked a round trip of twenty miles to be at a church service because they were thirsty for the word of God and for Christian fellowship. They face persecution, even martyrdom for their faith. They would do anything to be there for even a few minutes, like David said:

Psalm 84:10 Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.

Better one day in the house of God than a thousand elsewhere.

I have met people in this country who give up on their congregation citing musical style, preaching styles, or the service is too long and they miss five minutes of a sport game.

Matthew 13: 45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it"

The merchant in the parable sold all that he had to buy the pearl of great price.

The true believer is sold out for the Kingdom, would do anything to be there with God's people and you would have to pry them away from the meeting with a crowbar.

If people are presented with a consumer/ entertainment driven church model, then you'll get consumers and self-focused people who need entertainment or drift into false teaching.

If people are presented with the truth of the gospel then you'll gain disciples, sold-out for the Kingdom.

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us (1 John 2:19).

Churches can have problems, but it's better to seek solutions than scapegoats. The Lord comes soon, blessed is the servant who will be about his Master's business when he returns.

God Bless :)
 
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Aussie Pete

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I think sometimes talking about generations, culture, or programmes can be missing the big picture.

I met a Kazakh lady once and her Chinese husband who were missionaries in Central Asia. There were people in their congregation who walked a round trip of twenty miles to be at a church service because they were thirsty for the word of God and for Christian fellowship. They face persecution, even martyrdom for their faith. They would do anything to be there for even a few minutes, like David said:

Psalm 84:10 Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.

Better one day in the house of God than a thousand elsewhere.

I have met people in this country who give up on their congregation citing musical style, preaching styles, or the service is too long and they miss five minutes of a sport game.

Matthew 13: 45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it"

The merchant in the parable sold all that he had to buy the pearl of great price.

The true believer is sold out for the Kingdom, would do anything to be there with God's people and you would have to pry them away from the meeting with a crowbar.

If people are presented with a consumer/ entertainment driven church model, then you'll get consumers and self-focused people who need entertainment or drift into false teaching.

If people are presented with the truth of the gospel then you'll gain disciples, sold-out for the Kingdom.

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us (1 John 2:19).

Churches can have problems, but it's better to seek solutions than scapegoats. The Lord comes soon, blessed is the servant who will be about his Master's business when he returns.

God Bless :)
Well said, thank you.
 
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Salvadore

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Where in the Bible is the PRACTICE of homosexuality okay? Where in the Bible is fornication encouraged? Of course you will find hypocrisy in the Church because humans struggle. I have not been in a church building where LGBTQ people are asked to leave. You are a liberal thinker who is rebelling against the God of the Bible, the one and only true God. There have always been people who want others to be okay with their deviant life choices. It is much more difficult to walk the narrow path. I have no problem with a gay person leading in church but they must not engage in fornication. I understand everyone sins, but let the strong lead the weak . The church is supposed to help others. Not to give a pat on the back. God loves you too much. Please pray for understanding and read your Bible again. If someone hates LGTBQ people, they are wrong. Have you asked Christians if they hate LGBTQ people? Or, are you making assumptions? Have you asked pastors if they look at inappropriate content? Have you gone to someone in the congregation and asked"is it true you are committing adultery?". Never assume. I hope you think carefully before you believe 50% of pastors are looking at inappropriate content. Put your anger aside for a moment and talk to the people you are accusing. Reason ❤ together.
 
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lismore

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What do you understand to be the Truth of the Gospel, and how does it contrast with what others profess that truth to be?

Hello Beanie. If I were asked what the gospel was in a nutshell I would give several bible verses: John 3:16, John 5:24, Romans 10:9.

There are many church leaders, high profile speakers and pastors who clearly do not agree with what these bible verses say. For example I have encountered the view that there is salvation outside Jesus Christ, for example the sincere muslim or hindu. I have even seen a prominent church leader say that atheists can go to heaven.

Therefore I believe it's important to find a gospel church and give it maximum support. We're in the last days, Jesus is coming soon- Hebrews 10:24-25.

I have never personally witnessed any Christian being unkind to a homosexual person. Bullying anyone is wrong and is not a Christian act. Christians must speak with gentleness and respect to outsiders, this is a command of God. But twisting the word of God or trying to obscure or sugar coat the truth is not being respectful to the person, it does them a great dis-service.

Indeed there are several members in our church who struggle with same-sex attraction, one took part in a National Government Consultation on the issue and gave an excellent Christian response.

People who leave 'Evangelicalism' over the gay issue, I think it's a pretext rather than a reason.

To quote again the parable of the Pearl of Great Price. The Kingdom of God is like a pearl of great price, the merchant who found this pearl sold everything he had in order to buy it. The believer would walk on hot coals or swim an alligator infested river to spend one moment more with God's people. That's the place to be.

Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked (Psalm 84:10).

There will be challenges in God's house of course, but the answer is not to defect to the tents of the wicked. Jesus loves his church and gave his life for it, we should too.

God Bless :)
 
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Where in the Bible is the PRACTICE of homosexuality okay? Where in the Bible is fornication encouraged? Of course you will find hypocrisy in the Church because humans struggle. I have not been in a church building where LGBTQ people are asked to leave. You are a liberal thinker who is rebelling against the God of the Bible, the one and only true God. There have always been people who want others to be okay with their deviant life choices. It is much more difficult to walk the narrow path. I have no problem with a gay person leading in church but they must not engage in fornication. I understand everyone sins, but let the strong lead the weak . The church is supposed to help others. Not to give a pat on the back. God loves you too much. Please pray for understanding and read your Bible again. If someone hates LGTBQ people, they are wrong. Have you asked Christians if they hate LGBTQ people? Or, are you making assumptions? Have you asked pastors if they look at inappropriate content? Have you gone to someone in the congregation and asked"is it true you are committing adultery?". Never assume. I hope you think carefully before you believe 50% of pastors are looking at inappropriate content. Put your anger aside for a moment and talk to the people you are accusing. Reason ❤ together.

I am not reading a whole lot of anger in the OP. I don't agree with everything the author said, but it was a thoughtful letter and it was well-researched. For example, the statement that 50% of pastors look at inappropriate content included a link to a source. Perhaps the source is incorrect, but the author of the letter did research the matter. Your rebuttal contained no evidence.
 
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