Open letter to the church from millennial pastor - this is why we are leaving

[A Realist]

You missed the point.

Nope...the point is that she is not the humanist he is trying to make her out to be.

 

[BroRoyVa79]

Nope...the point is that she is not the humanist he is trying to make her out to be.

Still missed the point. It's not about her being a humanist.

 

[A Realist]

Still missed the point. It's not about her being a humanist.

According to one poster it is:

What sin(s) is she trying to justify?

Humanism.

 

[Archivist]

This young woman wrote an excellent, thoughtful, well-reasoned letter. I applaude what she has said.

 

[renniks]

If each new generation was not an improvement on previous ones, women and children would still be the property of men, slavery would be generally accepted, racism would be normal, we'd still be administering barbaric punishments like sticking a hot poker up the backside, the marrying off of very young girls would be acceptable etc. etc.

If God's kingdom is to come on earth as it is in heaven, we should be praying that each new generation is an improvement on the last not desperately clinging to privilege and power at their expense.

A lot of those things are still happening in different places around the world. Here in the West, we have mostly moved on to other sins, no less wrong.

 

[Beanieboy]

I think it is easy to be someone who loves people but hates God and all He represents while believing in Him . It is called humanism with a cloak of religion . In Romans it is stated as "worshipping the creature more than the creator ...it says more ...not instead of . Loving your neighbor is not packing them a nice lunch and filling up their car with gas as they head towards a cliff .
American Christianity demands equal pay for both male and female pastors . Christ says pick up your cross and follow me . Equal pay ? Really ? Pay ? Pay ? No wonder Christianity in America is in the shape it is . We work to be successful ( make money) leaving no time except a day or two of the week to spend time with our Lord , then pay someone to bring us the word of God . The gospel is about God for man ...Not about man for God . Subtle difference but the enemy of the truth is always subtle . The whole world was destroyed once except 8 people . God is a God of love but His love says " Turn around , why will ye perish ? "
Remember this line from Jesus . " Get thee behind me satan , you are a stumbling block . for thou savorist not the things that be of God , but of MAN . Our common enemy is a humanist . Man worship is man worship with or without religious garb . Man centered religion woos the crowd and says God loves you . No turning needed . No repentance . Jesus said , unless you repent , ye shall likewise perish . Why was Jesus so hard ? Because He did actually love His neighbor and they must hear the truth .

1 john 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?”

1 John 4:7-8
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Matthew 25
40“And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,f you were doing it to me!’

1 Corinthians 13 says that if you speak in tongue but don't have love, you are noise, can do miracles in his name but do not have love, you are nothing, and of no service to God.

Definition of love:
1 Corinthian 13


4Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.

To suggest that loving others is worshipping the created or man and denying the Creator is to show that one has missed the entire point of our call. As Christ said, all will know you are my followers by the love you show others.

But wanna know the biggest problem people have with Christians? They are too kind, too gentle, too patient, not rude enough, not boastful enough...said no one ever.

Can one warn people of hell without love? Yes. It becomes harsh judgement, anger, goes no where, and the Christian then walks away, thinking themselves morally superior, like the Parable of the Pharisee and tax collector. Can one be correcting without love? Yes. It is displayed as anger if the person doesn't submit to the person speaking, and they explain it is tough love, like parenting a child, putting themself as authority, and the person spoken to as a child who doesn't know any better.

Do people with logs in their eyes acknowledge it? No, despite the entire passage of judge not to examine one's own eye first, hear only the last part about removing the speck, and usually results in poking eyes out. It's not in anyway edifying.

Take the verse in Romans you are quoting. The people literally worshipped creatures, bird gods, not gave someone a sandwich. But even Satan can make the bible say what he wants it to.

The entire point of Christ was to show us how to love and forgive, not police everyone else on their sins while we ignore the enormous ones of our own.

Tough love can often be, snd often is, condemnation and hatred disguised as love, because it is easy to be "tough loving." People who hate you can do the same.

But you can't forgive without love, have empathy without love, listen to others without a need to be right or feel superior without love, show respect without love...

And so, some choose the easy route, "tough love", and only tough love, and thus, Christians are given a bad reputation. Think about it - how many Christian posters showed any attempt to hear her concern, aporoached it in humility, or admitted that yes, she has some valid points they* must turn from?

Or did everyone just pick up stones and have at it?

 

[BroRoyVa79]

According to one poster it is:

What sin(s) is she trying to justify?

Humanism.

Do I have to be a murderer to justify murder?
Do I have to be an adulterer to justify adultery?
Do I have to be an alcoholic to justify alcoholism?
Etc., etc., etc.

 

[A Realist]

Do I have to be a murderer to justify murder?
Do I have to be an adulterer to justify adultery?
Do I have to be an alcoholic to justify alcoholism?
Etc., etc., etc.

You're going down a rabbit hole and I ain't gonna follow. Later........

 

[BroRoyVa79]

You're going down a rabbit hole and I ain't gonna follow. Later........

Ok, later.

 

[Athanasius377]

Here's an article from evangelical Timothy Keller:
Can Evangelicalism Survive Donald Trump and Roy Moore?
"In many parts of the country, Evangelicalism serves as the civil or folk religion accepted by default as part of one’s social and political identity. So, in many cases, it means that the political is more defining than theological beliefs, which has not been the case historically"

Ok. This is closer still. And a valid criticism yet it is concerning a particular election in a particular state. It would be more helpful to cite poll numbers were evangelicals as a group are defined accepting Republican policies simply because they are republican. That would be a worthwhile discussion. I’m LCMS Lutheran which puts me in a sense into the big pot of evangelicalism but the LCMS in general is typically a political when it comes to party affiliations. As a rule I have a hierarchy of concerns beginning with the right to life, the priority of the natural family and concern for the poor. In that order. I have historically voted a split ticket because the local level had pro life democrats that were much more competent than their republican counterparts. This has been evaporated since 2010 for various reasons. I also see the problem pollution especially when it comes to plastics and the disaster recycling efforts have been. However I do not believe offing people because they are unwanted or an inconvenience. Nor do I believe the state is equipped to do the job of the family. The issue of poverty and the family like are not are linked at least in the west. Further I don’t believe tackling environmental concerns can be addressed with sending us back to the Stone Age. Which is what a lot of those on the left are in effect proposing. Why hasn’t someone considered maybe with all this technology we get behind something that clean up all emissions or the single use plastic plague? Lastly consider there are evangelicals who are not white who voted for Trump for the same reasons I have listed above? This population does exist but the attention is given to mostly white evangelicals where the perception is that we are some weird Knuckle dragging substrata in the Deep South?

 

[Beanieboy]

I'm unclear on a couple of things about the OP, if someone could help.
1. When the OP addresses the church, does she mean:
The church she is attending
The denomination, or evangelical church
or The Church, the collective Body of Christ?

Because I am confused about why she doesn't find a different church that is more in line with her beliefs.

There are churches that marry same sex couples and affirm GLBT groups, ones that focus on community service, and many of the points that left her wanting.

There are many churches wrestling with the very issues she speaks about.

So I'm not clear why she is leaving organized religion itself, if that is the case.

2. What would "middle ground" look like? Does that mean that homosexuality is viewed as sin, yet GLBT members can attend, but not be members? Those churches exist.

Does it mean that loving one's neighbor as oneself is to respect practicing Muslims and their religion, as she wants hers to be respected, allowing each to choose their own path, rather than get into arguments of who is right, or constant demands that the other convert, or as I have seen, judge an entire religion unfairly as violent, evil and terrorists? Such churches exist.

I question whether one attending a church whose creed they disagree with should ask that they completely change to the member's belief system. However, having grown up in a town of 20,000 in a good sized Lutheran Church, while at college, learned that when my church decided to either allow gay people to attend or become members, half of the church left and formed a new church.

I was shocked, because it had never been an issue spoken of when I grew up. We never discussed whether divorced and remarried couples were living in adultery, as Christ speaks of. The remarried couple were not put up for debate as to whether they qualified to be members or receive communion. Rather, people were all welcomed, the focus usually on loving actively, forgiving others, and examining one's own sin, rather than focusing on that of others.

In fact, I don't know of any openly gay people in the church I grew up in. Then, suddenly, it is an issue, the church is split in half, and Jesus Loves Me, this I know" changes to an Us vs "the sinners" and condemnation and God hates gays.

Even the idea of "should we allow gays to attend" I found so offensive, as if those in attendance were good enough or holy enough to earn the right to worship God, and to literally turn people away.

A letter to the editor for a pastor told of his sermon to allow gays to simply attend. At the end of the service an elderly woman told the pastor she wished he would reconsider what he was asking. He then asked if Jesus were at the door, and a gay person wanted to come to a service, would he turn them away. She's said, no, he would probably let them in - but he would be wrong!

A really strange comment.

So, what is the Church the OP is addressing?

 

[NeedyFollower]

1 john 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?”

1 John 4:7-8
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Matthew 25
40“And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,f you were doing it to me!’

1 Corinthians 13 says that if you speak in tongue but don't have love, you are noise, can do miracles in his name but do not have love, you are nothing, and of no service to God.

Definition of love:
1 Corinthian 13


4Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.

To suggest that loving others is worshipping the created or man and denying the Creator is to show that one has missed the entire point of our call. As Christ said, all will know you are my followers by the love you show others.

But wanna know the biggest problem people have with Christians? They are too kind, too gentle, too patient, not rude enough, not boastful enough...said no one ever.

Can one warn people of hell without love? Yes. It becomes harsh judgement, anger, goes no where, and the Christian then walks away, thinking themselves morally superior, like the Parable of the Pharisee and tax collector. Can one be correcting without love? Yes. It is displayed as anger if the person doesn't submit to the person speaking, and they explain it is tough love, like parenting a child, putting themself as authority, and the person spoken to as a child who doesn't know any better.

Do people with logs in their eyes acknowledge it? No, despite the entire passage of judge not to examine one's own eye first, hear only the last part about removing the speck, and usually results in poking eyes out. It's not in anyway edifying.

Take the verse in Romans you are quoting. The people literally worshipped creatures, bird gods, not gave someone a sandwich. But even Satan can make the bible say what he wants it to.

The entire point of Christ was to show us how to love and forgive, not police everyone else on their sins while we ignore the enormous ones of our own.

Tough love can often be, snd often is, condemnation and hatred disguised as love, because it is easy to be "tough loving." People who hate you can do the same.

But you can't forgive without love, have empathy without love, listen to others without a need to be right or feel superior without love, show respect without love...

And so, some choose the easy route, "tough love", and only tough love, and thus, Christians are given a bad reputation. Think about it - how many Christian posters showed any attempt to hear her concern, aporoached it in humility, or admitted that yes, she has some valid points they* must turn from?

Or did everyone just pick up stones and have at it?

Love is patient and kind . Patient and kind . Kind . I struggle with kindness because of the fear of man . Kindness does not let one perish or go the wrong direction but the natural man wants to be accepted . We speak the truth in LOVE . Not judgment for my hope is the same as any follower of Jesus Christ but again there is a humanistic gospel which is not the gospel ...at least not the gospel of Jesus . It is the gospel of man .

Jesus said , how can you believe you which receive honor one of another and not the honor which comes from God alone . ( John 5:44 ) Self worship is pretty rampant as is self love . It is the gospel of me and absolutely worships the creature . We worship dogs and turn them into humans . We worship celebrities . So that verse in Romans is very apt . We are to love our neighbor but we must be walking a difference direction . Not in hate but in love . Being forgiven for Christ sake when we were enemies of God , we do show God's forgiveness but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge ...whether heterosexual or homosexual . How do we not speak the truth and say we love ?

 

[Tolworth John]

Then address the hypocrisy she describes, which is perhaps the largest reason I left the church. Everyone is publicly holier than thou and secretly sinning. I’m a minister’s daughter and my father led a double life for years. He was abusive and had a inappropriate content addiction. You’re also not addressing the history of the church, always being on the wrong side of moral issues like slavery and women’s rights. The church also participated in horrible antisemetism and looked the other way during the holocaust.

True, yet without Christianity woman would still be property, slavery would be legal today and charity would be unknown.

There are problems but problems do not determine what is true or false.
How are our p4oblems, addictions, sins to be dealt with?
Is there forgiveness?
If there is how do we obtain it?

 

[Neogaia777]

How are our problems, addictions, sins to be dealt with?
Is there forgiveness?
If there is, how do we obtain it?

I think it all "starts with" a truly humble mind and heart attitude, etc, which of course has to come from God, etc, then He introduces you to His Son, and the rest, as they say, is, or will be history, at that point, etc...

At that point, be moved or motivated to Love and truly good works, etc, but out of gratitude and gratitude only, alone, etc, not that they save you but because you are saved, etc, etc, etc, truly producing His true fruits, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Peter J Barban]

I don't believe that's strictly true. Besides, as my post above states, the evidence (at least from a secular point of view) seems to point to generational cycles, not progress.

I wouldn't be surprised if the same principle applies to the Church. Revivals come and then go, and another comes, and it appears to work in a cyclical form.

Yes, you are right about the cycle of revival.
According to Christian historians, America has been on a 50 cycle of revivals, roughly every third generation since first great awakening around 1740. Unfortunately, the revival in the 1950's short-circuited and there has not been one since. England's revival cycle has also stopped.

 

[Sparagmos]

True, yet without Christianity woman would still be property, slavery would be legal today and charity would be unknown.

There are problems but problems do not determine what is true or false.
How are our p4oblems, addictions, sins to be dealt with?
Is there forgiveness?
If there is how do we obtain it?

Thats quite a claim, and I think most historians and anthropologist would disagree. There were cultures that pre-date Christianity that were free of slavery, not patriarchal, and valued charity.

Twenty Vile Quotes Against Women By Church Leaders from St. Augustine to Pat Robertson

The woman who wrote this article didn’t leave Christianity, she left her church. She stopped associating with the Pharisees of our time. Judge a tree by its fruit. When church leaders are publicly judging and secretly sinning, the fruit is bad.

 

[mcarans]

Ok. This is closer still. And a valid criticism yet it is concerning a particular election in a particular state. It would be more helpful to cite poll numbers were evangelicals as a group are defined accepting Republican policies simply because they are republican. That would be a worthwhile discussion. I’m LCMS Lutheran which puts me in a sense into the big pot of evangelicalism but the LCMS in general is typically a political when it comes to party affiliations. As a rule I have a hierarchy of concerns beginning with the right to life, the priority of the natural family and concern for the poor. In that order. I have historically voted a split ticket because the local level had pro life democrats that were much more competent than their republican counterparts. This has been evaporated since 2010 for various reasons. I also see the problem pollution especially when it comes to plastics and the disaster recycling efforts have been. However I do not believe offing people because they are unwanted or an inconvenience. Nor do I believe the state is equipped to do the job of the family. The issue of poverty and the family like are not are linked at least in the west. Further I don’t believe tackling environmental concerns can be addressed with sending us back to the Stone Age. Which is what a lot of those on the left are in effect proposing. Why hasn’t someone considered maybe with all this technology we get behind something that clean up all emissions or the single use plastic plague? Lastly consider there are evangelicals who are not white who voted for Trump for the same reasons I have listed above? This population does exist but the attention is given to mostly white evangelicals where the perception is that we are some weird Knuckle dragging substrata in the Deep South?

According to President Harrison of the LCMS "It’s a fact that the overwhelming majority of LCMS clergy are Republicans." (President Harrison provides a Lutheran view of church and state)

I use the LCMS prayer series as a resource when writing prayers for church (One-Year Series Prayers - LCMS Worship - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod). I remember one prayer suggestion which referred to our President, Donald. I am doubtful that there would have previously been a prayer suggestion that referred to our President, Barack.

 

[Athanasius377]

According to President Harrison of the LCMS "It’s a fact that the overwhelming majority of LCMS clergy are Republicans." (President Harrison provides a Lutheran view of church and state)

I use the LCMS prayer series as a resource when writing prayers for church (One-Year Series Prayers - LCMS Worship - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod). I remember one prayer suggestion which referred to our President, Donald. I am doubtful that there would have previously been a prayer suggestion that referred to our President, Barack.

Our congregation as part of the prayer of the church has always prayed for the president by name.

According to President Harrison of the LCMS "It’s a fact that the overwhelming majority of LCMS clergy are Republicans." (President Harrison provides a Lutheran view of church and state)

I use the LCMS prayer series as a resource when writing prayers for church (One-Year Series Prayers - LCMS Worship - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod). I remember one prayer suggestion which referred to our President, Donald. I am doubtful that there would have previously been a prayer suggestion that referred to our President, Barack.

If you read the entire blog post you would understand why that is the case. However politics is not preached from the pulpit. He goes on to describe the two kingdoms theology to which the LCMS subscribes

Also, I’m not sure why a prayer for the president would be out of place. There are five LCMS churches in my area and every one of them has without fail prayed for the president by name when I attended.

 

[Archivist]

According to President Harrison of the LCMS "It’s a fact that the overwhelming majority of LCMS clergy are Republicans." (President Harrison provides a Lutheran view of church and state)

I use the LCMS prayer series as a resource when writing prayers for church (One-Year Series Prayers - LCMS Worship - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod). I remember one prayer suggestion which referred to our President, Donald. I am doubtful that there would have previously been a prayer suggestion that referred to our President, Barack.

My ELCA church has always prayed for the President by name regardless of his party.

 

[Tolworth John]

Thats quite a claim, and I think most historians and anthropologist would disagree. There were cultures that pre-date Christianity that were free of slavery, not patriarchal, and valued charity.

Twenty Vile Quotes Against Women By Church Leaders from St. Augustine to Pat Robertson

The woman who wrote this article didn’t leave Christianity, she left her church. She stopped associating with the Pharisees of our time. Judge a tree by its fruit. When church leaders are publicly judging and secretly sinning, the fruit is bad.

Our society followed on from the slave owning Romans, that ruralism also involved slave shows that it is not enough to claim other societies were slavery free.